Car shopping: Questions and Comments

[homersapien 11,362]

It (finally) occurred to me I need to start a thread on this. Just as background, I will transfer over a "thread-jack" post from the political forum:

"It's funny how people become so loyal to a brand. We are a Honda family. I currently am driving my fifth Civic (including a CRX) which is a '92 with 205k miles on it. It's mechanically great but it needs re-painting. But it has been kept ungaraged for 22 years...

Rust was a problem for Honda in the 70's but they are well beyond that. I suspect the manufacturers who were using the heavier steel have since switched to lighter steels as well, the improvements have been in anti-corrosion treatments of the body, etc., but I don't know for sure.

I am shopping for a replacement to my 92 and am willing to start considering GM, Ford, or whomever. (I rode in my nephew's Malibu LTZ a few weeks back and was blown away about how comfortable, quiet (and quick) it was. It was a fairly recent model but not new. He got a great deal on it.

Problem is, my wife is an ex-Quality Eng. and is really hung-up on Consumer Reports data for long term quality. They have one of the better databases. Honda and Toyota are consistently good statistically, but other manufacturers have upped their game and quality is always improving - in general - for everyone. I am ready to consider any make. It depends on the design of the vehicle and luxury level. Another large factor is service convenience. I use one shop for my Civic who specialize in Honda and VW, but take my Toyota Tacoma elsewhere.

Bottom line, I am still a Honda guy, but am totally open to buying an American label. (Heck, like someone said you can now buy pretty much anything assembled here.) BMW has it's largest manufacturing plant - in the world! - about 25 miles south of me."

--------------------------------------

I am one of those guys who holds on to cars for a long time. I enjoy driving and appreciate performance. For example, I have a sport bike (for sale) and a "garage queen" roadster. My DD is as above.

In case you are wondering, that particular model of Civic came with a V-TEC motor, anti-lock brakes, full power accessories and a 5 spd transmission. Furthermore, this was a year in which Honda used a mult-link suspension (similar to BMW) instead of their more typical McPherson strut suspension, which they later reverted back to because of cost. I replaced the OEM steel wheels with alloys. I currently have Kumho ECSTA ASX 195/55 R15 which I like very much.

It doesn't have much power, but without passengers, if you keep the vtec on a boil it's a lot of fun. (vtec is Honda'ese for their variable valve timing system.)

Both my wife and I prefer manual transmissions (unusual, I know). Handling and reasonably good performance is a priority with both of us - or at least it is for me, and she appreciates it.

On the other hand, we have two fairly large dogs and we have owned enough hatchbacks in the past to appreciate the utility of that lay-out. I would also like to do more road trips in the future than we have been doing.

Bottom line, I am looking for a reasonable level of performance - say, close to 200 hp or better depending on weight. preferably a 6 speed tranny, 4 doors, maybe with hatchback, and reasonably good mpg. (My wife's minimum on the latter would probably be 30 mpg as even that would be slight regression from my 92 Civic which averages 32-33 overall. I might be able to sneak the highway rating by her though. ) Good handling is a must.

So my first brand choice is Honda, followed closely by Toyota/Nissan/Mazda. Don't know much about Subaru, but I appreciate the WRX.

Anyway, I am willing to open my mind.

I like VW's design and performance but they haven't done very well historically on Consumer Report. Likewise, BMW and some of the other luxury imports (Volvo, Saab, Audi) don't really seem like great values considering long term quality, cost of service, etc... But like I said, I am open...

I am (obviously) interested in Acura (TLs) but haven't looked much at Lexus, Infinity etc.

Also, I am frugal. I don't expect to buy new at this point in my life.

My rule of thumb is to focus on models that are about 5 yrs old which - as a rule of thumb - you can typically get for close to 50 cents/dollar. Figure an average of 12-15k /yr and they still have way more than half their life left. Since I don't anticipate much more than 5-6k miles per year, I am willing to consider higher mileage cars if well-maintained, especially in the luxury brands which are still relatively expensive if low miles.

Cars that I have or would consider are:

Honda Fit - my wife loves it, but while I like the potential of the concept it's too cheap, noisy and slow for me. At least that's what the owner's have told me. They like them but...

Honda Accord EX, 4 cyl Vtec (177 hp) w/ 5 speed. Found a good deal on a 2011 with less than 30k miles but couldn't convince wife to pull the trigger. (Being even cheaper than I am, she's waiting for the 92 to roll over and die.)

Acura TLs (w/ the 6 speed, 300 hp) - Rare, especially if limited to my preferred color (white). But just once before I die, I'd like to have something luxurious. I am open to Lexus or Infinity in the same size/performance class but I haven't researched them yet. I'd like to hear opinions on these if you have one.

Mazda 3 (4 door hatchback version) - haven't researched this, but I really like the looks and I like Mazda's focus on performance. I wish Honda made a 4 door Civic S with hatchback but they don't. The Mazda 3 may provide the closest thing?

I haven't researched Altima's but I often see some "sporty" versions and I think they are easily one of the better looking cars on the road.

Likewise, some of the newer Fords look really good but keep in mind that I am looking for something 4 - 5 years old. While I have bought new in the past (my '92 was new) but only for design/technology that was unavailable any other way. I also put a lot more mileage per year on those cars.

I know it's kind of crazy to have a range that includes Honda Fits to luxury cars but that's where I am.

While I don't have a real tight budget I don't like putting lots of money into cars and I sure as hell ain't going to finance. I am comfortable with $15- 20k, maybe higher for the right car.

This may be the last car I buy. And while I argue with my wife about it, I would like to at least go up one class from the Civic before I die. I haven't even owned an Accord-class car! We've gotten bigger and bump elbows in the '92. I like the Civic "S" but, it's still a another Civic :-\ .

FYI, wikipedia is by far the best site to do model research. They describe every generation of every model which is hugely important if you plan to buy used.

I suppose I should end with some questions:

Am I selling modern, multi-speed transmission short for performance/fun?

Similarly, I am aware of the concept of CVT transmissions and used to follow the technology years ago. I notice they are becoming quite common offerings. Does anyone have a good link that explains the various CVT technologies in use?

Sorry for the wordy topic but I would appreciate any comments.

(Obviously, I think of car shopping as a sport in itself. )

[homersapien 11,362]

Question for Altima fans:

Altima, 4th gen (2007-2012). Wikipedia lists both engines, then says a six speed is "standard" with CVT optional. Presumably that means 3.5 engine with 6 speeds were made? If so, I may have a new top-runner.

I was just curious if anyone might have one or could otherwise confirm my assumption.

Anyone know of a good Altima and/or Nissan - enthusiasts site?

[AFTiger 282]

Prius

[AU_Tiger_88 417]

I have 195K on my 2005 Accord, 140 on a 2003 Odysee...Both were made in the US...Can't say the same for GMs that you may be looking at. Had an argument with a guy about his Chevy he was touting that it was built in the US...well not so fast...made in Canada...but I would look at the Ford Fusion maybe Focus if you want to go smaller. I have driven my share of rentals and I would not buy Chevy/GM of any kind. I would look at a few models of Ford. But hands down would go back to Honda /acura in a heartbeat. I don't like how the Toyota seats fit me. I also have a Toyota Corolla and used to have a nissan sentra ...like the Sentra Don't care for the corolla (sons drive those cars). I would also consider a Diesel. The TDI has some good MPHs for a Diesel and the folks who I know that own them love them. If you can find a later model Mercedes Diesel I would get it. Those are great cars also. I agree with your wife about consumer reports good info. I will wait for Honda to come out with Front AC seats and will buy that model. I know that my Mother in law has a Buick that is nice and is a great all around car great for road trips and has the AC / Heated Seats which are great...especially here in Florida.

[alexava 6,973]

You and my wife could have a terribly annoying conversation. She is the ultimate car shopper. We just bought our 1st new car in 11 Years. We had sworn to go used but (I work for Toyota) my employee discount was just sweetened. We got a '13 Toyota Highlander. Went with the 4cly. For cost and mileage. Not disappointed with power either. She wanted 3rd row seat. I am not a "company man",so I don't encourage others to buy Toyota out of loyalty. I was raised on GM income. The first 30 years of my life was all GM the last eleven have been a mixture of the two and the gap in quality is enormous.

[homersapien 11,362]

Prius

Seriously? Have you done the numbers on battery cost?

I have to admit, I like the body concepts they offer, especially the larger, more wagon-like ones. I just don't see them offering the performance attributes I would really like. But, if you factor in torque and low cg, there is no doubt there is a LOT of potential in hybrids, as well as total electrics (see Tesla).

And with my driving needs - a day or more between trips for my DD - with an average round trip of 40-50 miles - a "solar collector car port" would theoretically almost eliminate my gas requirements for basic transport.

Of course, I still have the truck, a diesel tractor, my "toys", and various gas-powered tools and equipment, but that's trivial.

[homersapien 11,362]

I have 195K on my 2005 Accord, 140 on a 2003 Odysee...Both were made in the US...Can't say the same for GMs that you may be looking at.

I almost hate to admit it, but I really like Odysseys. I can easily imagine owning one, especially for road trips or when we have visitors. I am one of those "performance guys" who actually think mini-vans are pretty cool. I really like their utility for what they are. I would buy an Odyssey before I even considered a large SUV. It's a much better alternative IMO.

Problem is with my vehicle mix it doesn't really make sense for me. I have to have a truck, and you since a mini-van doesn't do the job of a truck, and I don't have to haul people on a regular basis, It would be cheaper to rent one if I really needed it. (But I still think Odysseys rock)

I am totally into Accords, but they don't offer the exact combination I really want. But I do regret missing out on the 2011 Accord EX, 6 speed (in white!) with low miles I passed on because of my wife's "cold feet".

That was a missed opportunity IMO.

I am thinking more and more of just acting unilaterally and tell her to leave if she doesn't like it. But she's been pretty lenient on my "toys". I'd rather keep the peace. I am truly blessed to have married a really cheap woman.

[homersapien 11,362]

I have 195K on my 2005 Accord, 140 on a 2003 Odysee...Both were made in the US...Can't say the same for GMs that you may be looking at. Had an argument with a guy about his Chevy he was touting that it was built in the US...well not so fast...made in Canada...but I would look at the Ford Fusion maybe Focus if you want to go smaller. I have driven my share of rentals and I would not buy Chevy/GM of any kind. I would look at a few models of Ford. But hands down would go back to Honda /acura in a heartbeat. I don't like how the Toyota seats fit me. I also have a Toyota Corolla and used to have a nissan sentra ...like the Sentra Don't care for the corolla (sons drive those cars). I would also consider a Diesel. The TDI has some good MPHs for a Diesel and the folks who I know that own them love them. If you can find a later model Mercedes Diesel I would get it. Those are great cars also. I agree with your wife about consumer reports good info. I will wait for Honda to come out with Front AC seats and will buy that model. I know that my Mother in law has a Buick that is nice and is a great all around car great for road trips and has the AC / Heated Seats which are great...especially here in Florida.

My wife's sister and husband own a Jetta TDI diesel wagon (6 spd) which I have driven and I really liked it. Very torquey off-line and handled decently. Not to mention supremely practical. (My brother-in-law rigged up a rigid divider to keep their two large dogs in the far back.)

I have also driven a Passant TDI (6 spd) in France. It was a eye-opener. It dispelled all my preconceptions about diesel cars. (But I don't think it's available in the U.S.)

Plus a diesel would be a natural compliment to my diesel utility tractor. I could buy diesel in bulk.... maybe ditch my gas-powered generator for a diesel powered one and get a diesel-powered "Gator" (which I could use).

The only problem there is we are back into the VW product line, which is an uphill battle with my wife based on the data.

But you are right, a Jetta - or Passant - TDI wagon could be a great solution for me. Maybe I need to revisit that.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Worked in the auto business for 18 years.

If you are happy with a Yugo, continue to buy a Yugo. Everyone is different. We all drive differently and have different needs.

Kim and i are Mazda/Honda folks. We buy Ford trucks.

i used to work for a GM Dealer.

I know folks that have owned GM and SWEAR BY THEM.

I owned a couple of GM cars and I SWORE AT THEM. One was repurchased after arbitration.

After the buyout and now the 13 year recall going on, i cannot see myself owning another one.

Personally, i drive an 89 Honda Civic Wagovan and will likely own it until the day i go home. Suits me to a tee.

Love the hatchback.

Love the way it drives.

Love the way it handles.

Love the way it gets 28-35mpg.

Love the way it lasts.

Love the way it is paid for.

[homersapien 11,362]

Worked in the auto business for 18 years.

If you are happy with a Yugo, continue to buy a Yugo. Everyone is different. We all drive differently and have different needs.

Kim and i are Mazda/Honda folks. We buy Ford trucks.

i used to work for a GM Dealer.

I know folks that have owned GM and SWEAR BY THEM.

I owned a couple of GM cars and I SWORE AT THEM. One was repurchased after arbitration.

After the buyout and now the 13 year recall going on, i cannot see myself owning another one.

Personally, i drive an 89 Honda Civic Wagovan and will likely own it until the day i go home. Suits me to a tee.

Love the hatchback.

Love the way it drives.

Love the way it handles.

Love the way it gets 28-35mpg.

Love the way it lasts.

Love the way it is paid for.

I agree. And you can have a bad experience with any make. The first Honda I bought developed synchronizer problems about 30k miles after the warranty expired. I had it fixed but wrote Honda a polite letter complaining about what I thought was a weak design. A few weeks later, the dealer called me and said he had a check from Honda for me to reimburse the cost of the repair. So no one's perfect but it's important they respond.

A friend had a Ford Ranger that threw a rod long after the warranty expired. I told him to write Ford. He was skeptical, but did so, and they paid for most of his cost. Treating customers like that is just good business.

I wish Honda would offer a wagon version of either the Civic or the Accord. That is what I really want. A CRV would likely meet my needs, but it still looks to me more like a downsized SUV with more ground clearance than is needed for highway use.

The Mazda 3 is a lot more appealing to me than the CRV for that reason. I wish they would publish Center of Gravity height.

Hatchbacks rule for utility. And there is no reason they can't be made to perform well either.

[DeepSouthHunter 0]

Worked in the auto business for 18 years.

If you are happy with a Yugo, continue to buy a Yugo. Everyone is different. We all drive differently and have different needs.

Kim and i are Mazda/Honda folks. We buy Ford trucks.

i used to work for a GM Dealer.

I know folks that have owned GM and SWEAR BY THEM.

I owned a couple of GM cars and I SWORE AT THEM. One was repurchased after arbitration.

After the buyout and now the 13 year recall going on, i cannot see myself owning another one.

Personally, i drive an 89 Honda Civic Wagovan and will likely own it until the day i go home. Suits me to a tee.

Love the hatchback.

Love the way it drives.

Love the way it handles.

Love the way it gets 28-35mpg.

Love the way it lasts.

Love the way it is paid for.

I agree. And you can have a bad experience with any make. The first Honda I bought developed synchronizer problems about 30k miles after the warranty expired. I had it fixed but wrote Honda a polite letter complaining about what I thought was a weak design. A few weeks later, the dealer called me and said he had a check from Honda for me to reimburse the cost of the repair. So no one's perfect but it's important they respond.

A friend had a Ford Ranger that threw a rod long after the warranty expired. I told him to write Ford. He was skeptical, but did so, and they paid for most of his cost. Treating customers like that is just good business.

I wish Honda would offer a wagon version of either the Civic or the Accord. That is what I really want. A CRV would likely meet my needs, but it still looks to me more like a downsized SUV with more ground clearance than is needed for highway use.

The Mazda 3 is a lot more appealing to me than the CRV for that reason. I wish they would publish Center of Gravity height.

Hatchbacks rule for utility. And there is no reason they can't be made to perform well either.

Have you seen the Honda Crosstour? It looks to be basically a hatchback Accord. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Crosstour

[homersapien 11,362]

Worked in the auto business for 18 years.

If you are happy with a Yugo, continue to buy a Yugo. Everyone is different. We all drive differently and have different needs.

Kim and i are Mazda/Honda folks. We buy Ford trucks.

i used to work for a GM Dealer.

I know folks that have owned GM and SWEAR BY THEM.

I owned a couple of GM cars and I SWORE AT THEM. One was repurchased after arbitration.

After the buyout and now the 13 year recall going on, i cannot see myself owning another one.

Personally, i drive an 89 Honda Civic Wagovan and will likely own it until the day i go home. Suits me to a tee.

Love the hatchback.

Love the way it drives.

Love the way it handles.

Love the way it gets 28-35mpg.

Love the way it lasts.

Love the way it is paid for.

I agree. And you can have a bad experience with any make. The first Honda I bought developed synchronizer problems about 30k miles after the warranty expired. I had it fixed but wrote Honda a polite letter complaining about what I thought was a weak design. A few weeks later, the dealer called me and said he had a check from Honda for me to reimburse the cost of the repair. So no one's perfect but it's important they respond.

A friend had a Ford Ranger that threw a rod long after the warranty expired. I told him to write Ford. He was skeptical, but did so, and they paid for most of his cost. Treating customers like that is just good business.

I wish Honda would offer a wagon version of either the Civic or the Accord. That is what I really want. A CRV would likely meet my needs, but it still looks to me more like a downsized SUV with more ground clearance than is needed for highway use.

The Mazda 3 is a lot more appealing to me than the CRV for that reason. I wish they would publish Center of Gravity height.

Hatchbacks rule for utility. And there is no reason they can't be made to perform well either.

Have you seen the Honda Crosstour? It looks to be basically a hatchback Accord. http://en.wikipedia....Honda_Crosstour

Yeah, I looked at it, but IMO it's not enough of a hatchback/wagon to justify the relatively poor fuel efficiency. Plus they don't offer a manual transmission. I am more attracted to the standard Accord with the 4 cylinder Vtec /Manual in terms of performance.

Honda has a gap in their line by not offering a Civic/Accord wagon IMO. Undoubtedly they consider it would be redundant to the CRV which I think is their top seller.

Also, I would still prefer to buy a 4-5 year-old used car (in white) preferably at the beginning of a design "generation".

[Strychnine 1,802]

Late to the party here, but I would strongly suggest an Infiniti G35 or G37. It will lose fuel economy battles with Honda and Toyota all day long, but there's always more to a car than that. The VQ35 and VQ37 are fine engines, and perfectly balanced to the G chassis. Handling is superb, especially with the sport package models (G35 6MT or G37S), and power is applied to the proper place (rear wheels). The '07 G35 6MT that I owned previously served me well from 50k to 120k, over the span of two years. It's a car that makes you enjoy driving.

[RunInRed 16,383]

Did someone say crossover? This new concept Mercedes SUV looks cool ... and will be built in Alabama!

[RunInRed 16,383]

I think the X6 is sharp too ...

[homersapien 11,362]

That's funny. I was thinking I need to start looking at BMWs. They are made just down the road from me. And I think they offer a true "station wagon" in both their 3 and 5 series. I bet it can be had with a manual 6 speed too.

I am also looking at the Ford Focus ST, but I think I would rather have something larger.

[homersapien 11,362]

Late to the party here, but I would strongly suggest an Infiniti G35 or G37. It will lose fuel economy battles with Honda and Toyota all day long, but there's always more to a car than that. The VQ35 and VQ37 are fine engines, and perfectly balanced to the G chassis. Handling is superb, especially with the sport package models (G35 6MT or G37S), and power is applied to the proper place (rear wheels). The '07 G35 6MT that I owned previously served me well from 50k to 120k, over the span of two years. It's a car that makes you enjoy driving.

What was the transmission? I haven't driven a "paddle shift" (multi-clutch) type of transmission but I might consider it instead of a 6 spd manual.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Late to the party here, but I would strongly suggest an Infiniti G35 or G37. It will lose fuel economy battles with Honda and Toyota all day long, but there's always more to a car than that. The VQ35 and VQ37 are fine engines, and perfectly balanced to the G chassis. Handling is superb, especially with the sport package models (G35 6MT or G37S), and power is applied to the proper place (rear wheels). The '07 G35 6MT that I owned previously served me well from 50k to 120k, over the span of two years. It's a car that makes you enjoy driving.

What was the transmission? I haven't driven a "paddle shift" (multi-clutch) type of transmission but I might consider it instead of a 6 spd manual.

Mine was a manual, and the 5-speed autos felt slow in comparison. The G37 has an improved auto (7 speed), but I would probably stick with the manual in either a G35 or G37.

[homersapien 11,362]

Well I finally made a decision and pulled the trigger on a (new!) car.

I wound up making a matrix of my different and sometimes conflicting requirements - or things I consider important. The list included things such as:

color (white)

performance (handling and power in that order)

utility (hatchback or wagon, but no SUVs)

manual transmission

economy (fuel efficiency)

features, luxury

As mentioned, I am a Honda guy, having purchased 6 of them in my adult life, 4 of which were new. Except for my S2000, these have all been variants of the Civic class - including a CRX - and an S2000.

Unfortunately, Honda has gone the route of so many other manufacturers and have eliminated their wagons and most of their hatchbacks, in favor of a small SUV, the CRV. I am sure that the CRV is a fine vehicle, but I refuse to drive an SUV or "crossover", especially with an automatic transmission which is all that is available. Without the CRV, the only contenders Honda offered are the Fit and Crosstour. I actually like the Fit and my wife was pushing for it, but I was sort of looking to upgrade from the "compact" to the next larger class (mid-size). And the newer Fit has been softened a bit handling wise. The Crosstour sounds good in theory, but frankly, I would sooner have the CRV.

It became quickly apparent that finding an acceptable used car was going to be difficult, especially since I decided not to compromise on the color. However, I did stumble into what may have been the perfect car located at a Volvo dealership in Charlotte, about 90 miles away: a 2011 Volvo V50 with 82k miles for $14,900. It was fully equipped, including leather interior. It wasn't a manual but it did have a 5 cyl, 227hp, turbocharged engine. I found it on Autotrader.com over the weekend and even transferred the money into my checking account in anticipation of driving to Charlotte to look at it. Called the salesman on Monday morning and set up an appointment for the next day. He called me before I left on the following day and told me the car had been sold on Monday.

Bottom line: you snooze, you lose. I should have been at the dealer when they opened on Monday.

The next options I considered were a Mazda 3 hatchback and Ford Focus hatchback. Mazda offers the Mazda 3 with a manual transmission, but the manual won't be available for my engine of choice (2.5 liter, 188 hp) until later this year.

I went to look at a Focus hatchback and figured as long as I wanted performance, I would "focus" on the Focus ST. That would certainly address my performance desires (247 hp) even though it's a little pricey. On the other hand, I already own a sports car, so weighting performance above utility didn't really make that much sense.

And while it was a hatchback, the cargo volume was still rather limited and it was a hassle to convert it to full cargo mode. It certainly wouldn't work for a road trip with one or more dogs.

So back to the computer where I took a completely different direction and zeroed in on a VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI. It's not exactly fast with only 140 hp but it has 236 ft-lbs of torque. Combine that with a 6 spd and it's quick enough to be entertaining. Lots of features and a huge and well designed cargo area. Finally, it's got that unmistakably "German" feel to it. It may or may not match my Honda's for long term reliability, but this thing exudes quality. It's quiet and handling is damn good for what it is.

You would never know it's a diesel unless you watch the tachometer. It's certainly a different approach than a Honda VTEC. (At least I won't have to endure my wife short-shifting it, as she habitually does with the Civic.)

My wife is still pissed about buying new (she is beyond cheap). But she will come around. I am totally impressed with it.