Russia shelling the Ukraine.

[homersapien 11,366]

This certainly "ups the ante" so to speak. Although considering the arms (and people, no doubt) already flowing across the border, it may be a moot point.

We are about to learn a lot about our European allies, especially Germany, who get about 1/3 of their petroleum from Russia. I hear it can get really cold there.

[homersapien 11,366]

Meanwhile,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/arseniy-yatsenyuk-resigns_n_5617322.html

The sooner they get a popularly elected government in place, the better.

[Weegle777 78]

Putin is getting antsy, he wanted to seize Ukraine in the first place. Wouldn't shock me if Russia goes off the reservation soon and officially takes them.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Meanwhile where is the fearless leader of the free world?....cavorting with his rich buddies in California

[autigeremt 6,598]

Forget Obama. He's MIA. Europe will cave to Russia. Had Germany not risen up in the 1930s WWII would have been Russia marching across Western Europe, not Germany.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Meanwhile where is the fearless leader of the free world?....cavorting with his rich buddies in California

Obama sees the writing on the wall. His day is done as President. Senate will flip to the GOP, and his last 2 years will be dinner parties, The WH concert series, the occasional sit in on The View, caviar dream vacations and partisan speeches at fund raisers.

[Weegle777 78]

The only show of force we showed when Putin was testing what reaction he would get from the world by invading Crimea was economic sanctions. All that weak response did was embolden him. Putin isn't done yet.

[AURaptor 1,122]

The world is falling apart, and all Barry can do is vacation and fund raise.

[Weegle777 78]

Honestly, I don't know what Obama could have done. If we move militarily against Russia, we possibly set off WW3.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Honestly, I don't know what Obama could have done. If we move militarily against Russia, we possibly set off WW3.

Could have tried to nip it in the bud, instead of non stop fundraisers , golf games w/ Tiger, WH concert series, etc...

The man has no interest or capacity to think or act on a global level. Obama is an empty suit.

[Weegle777 78]

How though, without getting into a war with Russia and possibly China and Iran? Something like that could possibly cripple us both economically and positionally.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Weegle777.....Obama can impose severe economic/financial sanctions against Russia that would cripple their economy whch is already in bad shape. That would put REAL pressure on Putin without any military involvement. The Dutch took a small step in that direction yesterday.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Could have tried to nip it in the bud, instead of non stop fundraisers , golf games w/ Tiger, WH concert series, etc...

The man has no interest or capacity to think or act on a global level. Obama is an empty suit.

Nip it in the bud how? In their rush to criticize and suggest courses of action, I think a lot of people fail to understand the situation. Imagine that Texas broke off from the United States (collapse of USSR), and then the population started to split between two perspectives. One side wants to distance itself further from the United States and get closer to our former enemies (Ukraine expressing interest in NATO). The other side would rather maintain independence and close relations with the United States, possibly rejoin the United States, and requests support from the United States (Ukrainian separatists). How do you think we would react to any substantial intervention by the Russians (United States and NATO)? That is simplifying it quite a bit, but the point was to illustrate the emotions, motives, and stakes involved.

This kind of situation is how large and costly wars are born. Russia is not Iraq, Iran, or North Korea. Serious attempts at threatening them, or intervention, will not be met with capitulation. Do you not remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, or more specifically the fact that they were prepared to go to war with us then until cooler heads prevailed. The Russians are not going to cave in when backed into a corner by severe sanctions meant to cripple their economy, they are far more likely to come out swinging and with ultra-nationalists in control. That is why everyone else is proceeding carefully with Russia in regard to Ukraine, and they damn well should.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Stand up to Russia like Reagan did , w/ out firing a shot.

But in order to do that, Obama would have to have a pair, which he doesn't. And Vlad knows it , too. Hell, the whole gorram WORLD knows it .

' A red line has been drawn in the sand...oh, you've crossed it ? Well, you shouldn't have. '

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Dam rite. You done shoulda nipped that there bud. Everbody who nos nothin nos about bud nippen. everybody whos got a pair. Wes a bunch a dam sissies.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Stand up to Russia like Reagan did , w/ out firing a shot.

But in order to do that, Obama would have to have a pair, which he doesn't. And Vlad knows it , too. Hell, the whole gorram WORLD knows it .

' A red line has been drawn in the sand...oh, you've crossed it ? Well, you shouldn't have. '

So we should be giving support and weapons to the Ukrainian nationalists? We got away with that in Afghanistan, mostly because the Soviets did not really care enough about Afghanistan to go to war with the United States over the issue. Ukraine, on the other hand, is perceived as their backyard. With Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia already in NATO, Russia does not want Ukraine following suit or risk the unrest that caused it spreading further into Russia itself. Reagan chose to "stand up to Russia" over Afghanistan. Russia makes a clear distinction between something like Afghanistan and what they view as their near abroad.

Eisenhower had the good sense to not do anything in the 50's as they rolled across Eastern Europe. Johnson had the good sense to not do anything in response to Russia's invasion of Czechoslovakia following Prague Spring. Bush had the good sense to not do anything with regard to Georgia. Thus far, Obama has had the good sense to not do anything with regard to Ukraine. The calculated risk of war with Russia over Afghanistan was far lower than it was/is for the four above examples.

[cptau 169]

Stand up to Russia like Reagan did , w/ out firing a shot.

But in order to do that, Obama would have to have a pair, which he doesn't. And Vlad knows it , too. Hell, the whole gorram WORLD knows it .

' A red line has been drawn in the sand...oh, you've crossed it ? Well, you shouldn't have. '

So we should be giving support and weapons to the Ukrainian nationalists? We got away with that in Afghanistan, mostly because the Soviets did not really care enough about Afghanistan to go to war with the United States over the issue. Ukraine, on the other hand, is perceived as their backyard. With Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia already in NATO, Russia does not want Ukraine following suit or risk the unrest that caused it spreading further into Russia itself. Reagan chose to "stand up to Russia" over Afghanistan. Russia makes a clear distinction between something like Afghanistan and what they view as their near abroad.

Eisenhower had the good sense to not do anything in the 50's as they rolled across Eastern Europe. Johnson had the good sense to not do anything in response to Russia's invasion of Czechoslovakia following Prague Spring. Bush had the good sense to not do anything with regard to Georgia. Thus far, Obama has had the good sense to not do anything with regard to Ukraine. The calculated risk of war with Russia over Afghanistan was far lower than it was/is for the four above examples.

The Russians rolled across Eastern Europe in the 1950s? They rolled across Eastern Europe in 1945 during WWII and their army didn't leave until the early 1990s when the Soviet Union fell apart.

The Russians have directly controlled the area of Belarus and Ukraine for at least a couple of hundred years until the fall of the Soviet Union. Those 2 areas have almost never been separate countries in modern history.

When NATO and the EU failed to add Ukraine to their memberships, Putin knew Ukraine was his. He used a puppet government to control Ukraine until last year. The failure of the US to do anything about Russia's ally Syria and their civil war was another green light for Putin to move on Ukraine.

The countries of eastern Europe have always had very fluid in borders and are mixes of ethnic groups. The people and borders move back and forth depending on who has the strongest military in the area.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

So we just sit by while Russia restores the Soviet Union?

[cptau 169]

So we just sit by while Russia restores the Soviet Union?

We have been sitting for the last 10 years. The Western Europeans are still afraid of the Bear. If they didn't need Russian natural gas they might be much less afraid. They also cannot afford a strong military to stand up to the Russians. The Western Europeans have spent their money on social welfare programs and many of them are broke.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

So what do we do.......nothing? It's pretty simple to me...we can impose SEVERE economic/finance sanctions against Russia and it would cripple their own economy which is also currently in sad shape. We can also get on with the Keystone pipeline which can help our European allies. dependence.

[Tigermike 3,025]

So what do we do.......nothing?

Go to Obama's next fund raiser? Start stocking up on tailgating at AUBURN.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Sounds like a plan. For sure better than anything in place now.

[AUtiger98 24]

Obama could start by reinstating the missile defense systems in East Europe. I know people in Huntsville who worked on that project and lost there jobs when he killed it.

[Weegle777 78]

Now Putin wants to get involved with peace talks in Israel. He already has intimidated the Israelis with threats to supply weapons to Syria, now he wants to talk peace. BS. The book of Ezekiel, boys and girls, it's quickly coming!

[homersapien 11,366]

The only show of force we showed when Putin was testing what reaction he would get from the world by invading Crimea was economic sanctions. All that weak response did was embolden him. Putin isn't done yet.

I agree but I would point out that sanctions are the only rational way to deter - or punish this. That's why Europe is really more key than the US in terms of actually doing something in terms of serious sanctions. The US does need to lead however.

This is essentially a test for the modern world. If there is a pay-off to having a global economy, this is it. I do agree that what has been done so far is inadequate, it's time for the NATO countries - and anyone else who cares to join us - to get serious about sanctions.

If the "west" puts forward a unified front I think this will ultimately backfire on Putin.