Imperfection a reasonable excuse for execution?

[Kassc22 0]

I know my views on abortion are not shared by many on this board, but I can't help but feeling as if the abortion of a child simply because its not "perfect" in the eyes of some people is immoral. I can't see it as any different than executing someone on death row for a crime that the person didn't commit.

http://nypost.com/2014/08/31/why-the-atheist-call-to-abort-the-disabled-is-doomed/

“Abort it and try again.”

Those were the recent words of Richard Dawkins, responding to a tweet from a woman who said she would see it as “a real ethical dilemma” if she became pregnant with a baby with Down syndrome.

After the uproar that followed on Twitter, Dawkins dug in his heels.

“To conclude, what I was saying simply follows logically from the ordinary pro-choice stance that most of us, I presume, espouse. My phraseology may have been tactlessly vulnerable to misunderstanding, but I can’t help feeling that at least half the problem lies in a wanton eagerness to misunderstand.

“If your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down’s baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child’s own welfare.”

Dawkins, like many of the so-called New Atheists (though they’re not so new anymore) finds himself regularly baffled at the way the public reacts to his pronouncements. He sounds a little like Mr. Spock when he wonders why there is this “wanton eagerness” to misunderstand his perfectly reasonable logic as cruel or heartless when, as he notes, so many people make just the choice he suggests.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

You have at least one person who agrees with you.....me.

[AUDub 11,147]

I liked PZ Myers' response on his blog.

Language warning for the comments.

Saying you should abort is as wrong as saying you may not abort

Oy, Richard Dawkins and Twitter again.

InYourFaceNewYorker @InYourFaceNYer

@RichardDawkins @AidanMcCourt I honestly don’t know what I would do if I were pregnant with a kid with Down Syndrome. Real ethical dilemma.

Richard Dawkins @RichardDawkins

@InYourFaceNYer Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice.

I’m fully in agreement with Dawkins that abortion is not an unethical choice. The woman can choose whether to keep a child or not, and it is perfectly reasonable, and even responsible, for her to include any information about genetic disorders in making her decision. However, singling out children with Down Syndrome is seriously problematic — it is not immoral to have a child with Downs. It is immoral to insist that a fetus with Down Syndrome should be aborted.

I recommend reading any of Michael Bérubé’s stories about having a child with Down Syndrome — he doesn’t have any regrets at all. Or you could read about how Bérubé schooled Peter Singer, and Singer did the right thing and changed his mind. He also wrote a book on the subject, reviewed in the NY Times.

We should not judge a person’s humanity by the number of chromosomes they have, or how intelligent they are, or by how close their appearance fits a particular standard.

[cooltigger21 0]

When I was younger I knew a boy that, while he did not have downs, was mentally retarded. I always enjoyed being around him and I was very saddened when he died. I wouldn't trade that time for anything. Most people that talk about it being better and not bringing a child that would have difficulties and suffer are, IMO, more concerned about themselves and the inconvenience it would be for them.

[Weegle777 78]

Exactly correct ct. They don't want their lives inconvenienced.

[Aufan59 60]

When I was younger I knew a boy that, while he did not have downs, was mentally retarded. I always enjoyed being around him and I was very saddened when he died. I wouldn't trade that time for anything. Most people that talk about it being better and not bringing a child that would have difficulties and suffer are, IMO, more concerned about themselves and the inconvenience it would be for them.

Most people are concerned about themselves. Your post was focused on the benefit that person brought to you, with no comments on the quality of life that he had.

A child is far more than an inconvenience, it is a huge responsibility. A child with down's syndrome is an even bigger responsibility. Some parents may not be ready for the increased responsbility of a child with down's syndrome, and couldn't give him/her the proper attention and care. Would it be moral for them to birth a child that they could not handle?

[Weegle777 78]

Did you seriously just post something so callous and insensitive?

[Weegle777 78]

If you are deciding to bring a child into this world, and you expect that child to be perfect, you are an abject idiot and shouldn't be considering parenthood. That is the epitome of selfishness.

[japantiger 4,051]

I liked PZ Myers' response on his blog.

Language warning for the comments.

Saying you should abort is as wrong as saying you may not abort

Oy, Richard Dawkins and Twitter again.

InYourFaceNewYorker @InYourFaceNYer

@RichardDawkins @AidanMcCourt I honestly don't know what I would do if I were pregnant with a kid with Down Syndrome. Real ethical dilemma.

Richard Dawkins @RichardDawkins

@InYourFaceNYer Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice.

I'm fully in agreement with Dawkins that abortion is not an unethical choice. The woman can choose whether to keep a child or not, and it is perfectly reasonable, and even responsible, for her to include any information about genetic disorders in making her decision. However, singling out children with Down Syndrome is seriously problematic — it is not immoral to have a child with Downs. It is immoral to insist that a fetus with Down Syndrome should be aborted.

I recommend reading any of Michael Bérubé's stories about having a child with Down Syndrome — he doesn't have any regrets at all. Or you could read about how Bérubé schooled Peter Singer, and Singer did the right thing and changed his mind. He also wrote a book on the subject, reviewed in the NY Times.

We should not judge a person's humanity by the number of chromosomes they have, or how intelligent they are, or by how close their appearance fits a particular standard.

Well said all. We grew up in the old family house in my home town; we shared it with my family and at different times over 20 years with my aunt's two families. The oldest child in the house was a Down's Syndrome child; my first cousin Danny. Danny lived to be 65. He was 12 years older than me; but due to his condition he was small for his age (never taller than 5') and mentally never advanced past the age of ~5. He was one of my best friends in the world as a child; and the same for my two older brothers; and his brother and 2 sisters and his other 4 cousins that lived in the house. We have amazing pictures of all of us with Danny as we grew. My favorite is of me, Danny and my older brother under the Christmas tree in our "grippies" when I was about 4; huge smiles from the 3 of us. I can't imagine a world where I wouldn't have grown up with Danny...I cannot imagine my Aunt making a decision to murder him because he wasn't perfect. None of us are perfect...who gets to decide perfection on this earth? Certainly not me...Danny was absolutely perfect and a wonderful, loving, "brother" who brightened my world and our families' world. To think that we've sunk to this type of "morality" is sickening. This is Adolf Hitler's morality.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Kim and i were 39+++ when we got pregnant with Ethan. We had him just before i turned 40. We were scheduled to go to Bham and get what i thought was some other testing and amnio testing done at UAB. Kim was nervous as can be. The chances of breaking the sac doing the amnio were elevated due to a few concerns but the Doctors wanted to press ahead with it anyway. Kim and i never considered aborting the baby, NEVER, not for a nano-second. That is just not an option for us.

So as we were walking into the Clinic, and i saw my lovely bride just worried sick. We stopped right there in the street and finally had the talk. I thought they were doing other tests. Kim told me, no it was an amnio only this trip. I saw where she was really shaking scared at this point.

I said, "So the doctors want to risk the baby to tell us we have an elevated chance of having a Down's Syndrome Child?" (because of our ages.)

Yes.

"Well then lets go home. It doesnt matter. Whatever God gives us, we are gonna raise it anyway, right?"

Yes. (Her face in total glow at this point.)

"If God gives us a Down's Syndrome Child, then i guess he knows we are strong enough to raise him."

Kim said yes again. No couple on earth is more married than we were at that moment.

BTW, Ethan is a healthy, robust, polite, lovable, intelligent child of 12, plays nose tackle and off guard, and has a 4.0 gpa. Think Barrett Trotter at age twelve. I believe he is that way because we were ready take him any way he arrived.

Abortion is not an option for me. There is a 19 year old young lady (extended family member) out there now because i stood up for her momma back in 1995 when the grandma demanded an abortion. I financially and physically helped raise that child. This is not some esoteric/ethereal discussion for me.There are many many many couples desperate for a child. Adoption agencies have long waiting lists. There are so many other options for children.

Dawkins is a highly educated heartless prick of whom only the nazis would be proud.

[Weegle777 78]

Extremely well said sir.

[AUDub 11,147]

Thank you for sharing, DKW.

I think Dawkins is a living example that one can be both an excellent scientist and a terrible human being.

[Kassc22 0]

Almost every post in this thread has made me smile. Some people just don't know what they are missing. We don't know exactly what is wrong with my sister. She has a twin (fraternal), her apgar scores were higher than her twins when they were born. Her twin is perfectly normal. We found out when she was 10 years old that she began having seizures the night she was born. The doctors and the hospital never told my parents. The court order they got when she was 10 was the first time we knew anything had happened out of the ordinary. Most of the records were blacked out so we have never found out what happened. My sister doesn't have downs; she can't talk, and I would say in many ways she is only on the level of a 4 to 5 year old. In others only 18 months. She understands everything you say to her. She responds in some ways. She will shake her head yes sometimes..make noises that sound like agreement. Years of living with her has given most of us in the family the ability to mostly read her and tell you what she wants. When she was much younger she seemed to be able to verbalize more than she does now. She would fuss at me and her twin when we played with her, she would tell us to quit and stop. She called her twin Daya...which is not even close to her name and she called me sistar. She used to say Dada. She called my mother Nana..and she said these words seldom. As she has gotten older she says nothing except Trishy. My mothers name is Patricia and my dad called my mom Trish. My sister heard it and picked it up...and began calling my mom Trishy. It is the only word she says now. I can't imagine how much my moms heart has to fill up when she hears that.

I didn't know until I began kindergarten that everyone didn't have a sister like her. I thought everyone did. I was blessed that my friends always loved her and were so sweet to her when they came to our house. To this day the girls I graduated high school with still ask me about her. People who don't have the experience of "special" adults and children just don't know what they are missing. Sure, life can be hard for some of them. Is their life any worse than that of someone who is "normal" that has health problems? These children and adults get to be innocent mostly for life. They get to enjoy the world and show us how to enjoy it as well. When I was told I had cancer, and then that it was stage four, she is what kept me from falling into a depression. How could I be depressed when I had this blessing for a sister. I knew she needed me and I had to be around for her. She has kept me going, helping my mom with her as always have allowed me to keep going and not let the chemo and other treatments really get to me. God blessed my family with her. All of your stories have blessed me today too. BB, those links were great, as a matter of fact I fell down the rabbit hole you could say following all the different links at each website I was led to..lol..DKW and JapanTiger you both are awesome people! All of you are actually, with the exception of one.

To the poster who seemed to be worried about 'the quality of life of these people." "These" people are humans, no different than you, they need love and care and attention just as any child does when they are younger, and any adult does as they age. Sure some of them will never be independent but so what? How many of us have thought "man I wish I could relive my childhood knowing what I know now?" Many of them always get to have a childhood, and if they have good parents and a solid family I can promise you their "quality of life" is much better than anyone else on this board. The children who are unwanted and are unlucky enough to have selfish, immature parents are the ones who suffer. Adoption is the answer here. Despite what you may think there are many people who want a baby badly enough that they don't mind a "special" child. Killing a child simply because they have an extra chromosome is not an excuse.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

1000 plusses for you kassc22.

[TexasTiger 12,828]

Almost every post in this thread has made me smile. Some people just don't know what they are missing. We don't know exactly what is wrong with my sister. She has a twin (fraternal), her apgar scores were higher than her twins when they were born. Her twin is perfectly normal. We found out when she was 10 years old that she began having seizures the night she was born. The doctors and the hospital never told my parents. The court order they got when she was 10 was the first time we knew anything had happened out of the ordinary. Most of the records were blacked out so we have never found out what happened. My sister doesn't have downs; she can't talk, and I would say in many ways she is only on the level of a 4 to 5 year old. In others only 18 months. She understands everything you say to her. She responds in some ways. She will shake her head yes sometimes..make noises that sound like agreement. Years of living with her has given most of us in the family the ability to mostly read her and tell you what she wants. When she was much younger she seemed to be able to verbalize more than she does now. She would fuss at me and her twin when we played with her, she would tell us to quit and stop. She called her twin Daya...which is not even close to her name and she called me sistar. She used to say Dada. She called my mother Nana..and she said these words seldom. As she has gotten older she says nothing except Trishy. My mothers name is Patricia and my dad called my mom Trish. My sister heard it and picked it up...and began calling my mom Trishy. It is the only word she says now. I can't imagine how much my moms heart has to fill up when she hears that.

I didn't know until I began kindergarten that everyone didn't have a sister like her. I thought everyone did. I was blessed that my friends always loved her and were so sweet to her when they came to our house. To this day the girls I graduated high school with still ask me about her. People who don't have the experience of "special" adults and children just don't know what they are missing. Sure, life can be hard for some of them. Is their life any worse than that of someone who is "normal" that has health problems? These children and adults get to be innocent mostly for life. They get to enjoy the world and show us how to enjoy it as well. When I was told I had cancer, and then that it was stage four, she is what kept me from falling into a depression. How could I be depressed when I had this blessing for a sister. I knew she needed me and I had to be around for her. She has kept me going, helping my mom with her as always have allowed me to keep going and not let the chemo and other treatments really get to me. God blessed my family with her. All of your stories have blessed me today too. BB, those links were great, as a matter of fact I fell down the rabbit hole you could say following all the different links at each website I was led to..lol..DKW and JapanTiger you both are awesome people! All of you are actually, with the exception of one.

To the poster who seemed to be worried about 'the quality of life of these people." "These" people are humans, no different than you, they need love and care and attention just as any child does when they are younger, and any adult does as they age. Sure some of them will never be independent but so what? How many of us have thought "man I wish I could relive my childhood knowing what I know now?" Many of them always get to have a childhood, and if they have good parents and a solid family I can promise you their "quality of life" is much better than anyone else on this board. The children who are unwanted and are unlucky enough to have selfish, immature parents are the ones who suffer. Adoption is the answer here. Despite what you may think there are many people who want a baby badly enough that they don't mind a "special" child. Killing a child simply because they have an extra chromosome is not an excuse.

Thanks for sharing.

[japantiger 4,051]

Almost every post in this thread has made me smile. Some people just don't know what they are missing. We don't know exactly what is wrong with my sister. She has a twin (fraternal), her apgar scores were higher than her twins when they were born. Her twin is perfectly normal. We found out when she was 10 years old that she began having seizures the night she was born. The doctors and the hospital never told my parents. The court order they got when she was 10 was the first time we knew anything had happened out of the ordinary. Most of the records were blacked out so we have never found out what happened. My sister doesn't have downs; she can't talk, and I would say in many ways she is only on the level of a 4 to 5 year old. In others only 18 months. She understands everything you say to her. She responds in some ways. She will shake her head yes sometimes..make noises that sound like agreement. Years of living with her has given most of us in the family the ability to mostly read her and tell you what she wants. When she was much younger she seemed to be able to verbalize more than she does now. She would fuss at me and her twin when we played with her, she would tell us to quit and stop. She called her twin Daya...which is not even close to her name and she called me sistar. She used to say Dada. She called my mother Nana..and she said these words seldom. As she has gotten older she says nothing except Trishy. My mothers name is Patricia and my dad called my mom Trish. My sister heard it and picked it up...and began calling my mom Trishy. It is the only word she says now. I can't imagine how much my moms heart has to fill up when she hears that.

I didn't know until I began kindergarten that everyone didn't have a sister like her. I thought everyone did. I was blessed that my friends always loved her and were so sweet to her when they came to our house. To this day the girls I graduated high school with still ask me about her. People who don't have the experience of "special" adults and children just don't know what they are missing. Sure, life can be hard for some of them. Is their life any worse than that of someone who is "normal" that has health problems? These children and adults get to be innocent mostly for life. They get to enjoy the world and show us how to enjoy it as well. When I was told I had cancer, and then that it was stage four, she is what kept me from falling into a depression. How could I be depressed when I had this blessing for a sister. I knew she needed me and I had to be around for her. She has kept me going, helping my mom with her as always have allowed me to keep going and not let the chemo and other treatments really get to me. God blessed my family with her. All of your stories have blessed me today too. BB, those links were great, as a matter of fact I fell down the rabbit hole you could say following all the different links at each website I was led to..lol..DKW and JapanTiger you both are awesome people! All of you are actually, with the exception of one.

To the poster who seemed to be worried about 'the quality of life of these people." "These" people are humans, no different than you, they need love and care and attention just as any child does when they are younger, and any adult does as they age. Sure some of them will never be independent but so what? How many of us have thought "man I wish I could relive my childhood knowing what I know now?" Many of them always get to have a childhood, and if they have good parents and a solid family I can promise you their "quality of life" is much better than anyone else on this board. The children who are unwanted and are unlucky enough to have selfish, immature parents are the ones who suffer. Adoption is the answer here. Despite what you may think there are many people who want a baby badly enough that they don't mind a "special" child. Killing a child simply because they have an extra chromosome is not an excuse.

God bless you, your family and especially your sister.

[cooltigger21 0]

On top of the boy I knew when I was a kid, my grandfather had a brother that was a special individual. He was able to talk and have some form of conversation with others although not to the level most of us can. He loved checkers and jigsaw puzzles and he was very good at both. I always looked forward to the times when he would stay at my grandparents house. There were challenges to be sure but you just can't get imagine what life would be like without these truly special individuals. Sometimes I get too caught up in my own life and forget that others have something to offer me. Those memories are some of the best I have.

[DKW 86 7,419]

[Aufan59 60]

On top of the boy I knew when I was a kid, my grandfather had a brother that was a special individual. He was able to talk and have some form of conversation with others although not to the level most of us can. He loved checkers and jigsaw puzzles and he was very good at both. I always looked forward to the times when he would stay at my grandparents house. There were challenges to be sure but you just can't get imagine what life would be like without these truly special individuals. Sometimes I get too caught up in my own life and forget that others have something to offer me. Those memories are some of the best I have.

Almost every post in this thread has made me smile. Some people just don't know what they are missing. We don't know exactly what is wrong with my sister. She has a twin (fraternal), her apgar scores were higher than her twins when they were born. Her twin is perfectly normal. We found out when she was 10 years old that she began having seizures the night she was born. The doctors and the hospital never told my parents. The court order they got when she was 10 was the first time we knew anything had happened out of the ordinary. Most of the records were blacked out so we have never found out what happened. My sister doesn't have downs; she can't talk, and I would say in many ways she is only on the level of a 4 to 5 year old. In others only 18 months. She understands everything you say to her. She responds in some ways. She will shake her head yes sometimes..make noises that sound like agreement. Years of living with her has given most of us in the family the ability to mostly read her and tell you what she wants. When she was much younger she seemed to be able to verbalize more than she does now. She would fuss at me and her twin when we played with her, she would tell us to quit and stop. She called her twin Daya...which is not even close to her name and she called me sistar. She used to say Dada. She called my mother Nana..and she said these words seldom. As she has gotten older she says nothing except Trishy. My mothers name is Patricia and my dad called my mom Trish. My sister heard it and picked it up...and began calling my mom Trishy. It is the only word she says now. I can't imagine how much my moms heart has to fill up when she hears that.

I didn't know until I began kindergarten that everyone didn't have a sister like her. I thought everyone did. I was blessed that my friends always loved her and were so sweet to her when they came to our house. To this day the girls I graduated high school with still ask me about her. People who don't have the experience of "special" adults and children just don't know what they are missing. Sure, life can be hard for some of them. Is their life any worse than that of someone who is "normal" that has health problems? These children and adults get to be innocent mostly for life. They get to enjoy the world and show us how to enjoy it as well. When I was told I had cancer, and then that it was stage four, she is what kept me from falling into a depression. How could I be depressed when I had this blessing for a sister. I knew she needed me and I had to be around for her. She has kept me going, helping my mom with her as always have allowed me to keep going and not let the chemo and other treatments really get to me. God blessed my family with her. All of your stories have blessed me today too. BB, those links were great, as a matter of fact I fell down the rabbit hole you could say following all the different links at each website I was led to..lol..DKW and JapanTiger you both are awesome people! All of you are actually, with the exception of one.

To the poster who seemed to be worried about 'the quality of life of these people." "These" people are humans, no different than you, they need love and care and attention just as any child does when they are younger, and any adult does as they age. Sure some of them will never be independent but so what? How many of us have thought "man I wish I could relive my childhood knowing what I know now?" Many of them always get to have a childhood, and if they have good parents and a solid family I can promise you their "quality of life" is much better than anyone else on this board. The children who are unwanted and are unlucky enough to have selfish, immature parents are the ones who suffer. Adoption is the answer here. Despite what you may think there are many people who want a baby badly enough that they don't mind a "special" child. Killing a child simply because they have an extra chromosome is not an excuse.

The person I was responding to mentioned that some people are only concerned with themselves, but his post was only about how a mentally handicapped person benefitted him. While that is fine and dandy (and is something I can relate to) shouldn't the discussion be about the people with Down syndrome? Is asking about the potential quality of life that far off base?

From what I've seen and understand, having a child with Down's syndrome can be a much bigger responsibility than having one without. A couple could be prepared and able to raise a child, but not one with Down's syndrome. Is it moral for parents to birth a child that they don't feel capable of raising?

[alexava 6,973]

We were going to have the testing done and if there was something way wrong like Downs were were going to terminate. I don't see it as murder but mercy. I still feel that way if others so choose. But for us when we saw the first ultrasound and the heartbeat we decided to skip the test. I chose not to know and I also think 9years ago the chance of false positive tests were high. But if I did know I still don't think I could abort. I think it is and should be a personal choice. I also have no problem with using the logic of inconvenience as some call it. I have good friends with special kids and it is a life long responsibility. Then after you pass someone else's.

[cooltigger21 0]

On top of the boy I knew when I was a kid, my grandfather had a brother that was a special individual. He was able to talk and have some form of conversation with others although not to the level most of us can. He loved checkers and jigsaw puzzles and he was very good at both. I always looked forward to the times when he would stay at my grandparents house. There were challenges to be sure but you just can't get imagine what life would be like without these truly special individuals. Sometimes I get too caught up in my own life and forget that others have something to offer me. Those memories are some of the best I have.

Almost every post in this thread has made me smile. Some people just don't know what they are missing. We don't know exactly what is wrong with my sister. She has a twin (fraternal), her apgar scores were higher than her twins when they were born. Her twin is perfectly normal. We found out when she was 10 years old that she began having seizures the night she was born. The doctors and the hospital never told my parents. The court order they got when she was 10 was the first time we knew anything had happened out of the ordinary. Most of the records were blacked out so we have never found out what happened. My sister doesn't have downs; she can't talk, and I would say in many ways she is only on the level of a 4 to 5 year old. In others only 18 months. She understands everything you say to her. She responds in some ways. She will shake her head yes sometimes..make noises that sound like agreement. Years of living with her has given most of us in the family the ability to mostly read her and tell you what she wants. When she was much younger she seemed to be able to verbalize more than she does now. She would fuss at me and her twin when we played with her, she would tell us to quit and stop. She called her twin Daya...which is not even close to her name and she called me sistar. She used to say Dada. She called my mother Nana..and she said these words seldom. As she has gotten older she says nothing except Trishy. My mothers name is Patricia and my dad called my mom Trish. My sister heard it and picked it up...and began calling my mom Trishy. It is the only word she says now. I can't imagine how much my moms heart has to fill up when she hears that.

I didn't know until I began kindergarten that everyone didn't have a sister like her. I thought everyone did. I was blessed that my friends always loved her and were so sweet to her when they came to our house. To this day the girls I graduated high school with still ask me about her. People who don't have the experience of "special" adults and children just don't know what they are missing. Sure, life can be hard for some of them. Is their life any worse than that of someone who is "normal" that has health problems? These children and adults get to be innocent mostly for life. They get to enjoy the world and show us how to enjoy it as well. When I was told I had cancer, and then that it was stage four, she is what kept me from falling into a depression. How could I be depressed when I had this blessing for a sister. I knew she needed me and I had to be around for her. She has kept me going, helping my mom with her as always have allowed me to keep going and not let the chemo and other treatments really get to me. God blessed my family with her. All of your stories have blessed me today too. BB, those links were great, as a matter of fact I fell down the rabbit hole you could say following all the different links at each website I was led to..lol..DKW and JapanTiger you both are awesome people! All of you are actually, with the exception of one.

To the poster who seemed to be worried about 'the quality of life of these people." "These" people are humans, no different than you, they need love and care and attention just as any child does when they are younger, and any adult does as they age. Sure some of them will never be independent but so what? How many of us have thought "man I wish I could relive my childhood knowing what I know now?" Many of them always get to have a childhood, and if they have good parents and a solid family I can promise you their "quality of life" is much better than anyone else on this board. The children who are unwanted and are unlucky enough to have selfish, immature parents are the ones who suffer. Adoption is the answer here. Despite what you may think there are many people who want a baby badly enough that they don't mind a "special" child. Killing a child simply because they have an extra chromosome is not an excuse.

The person I was responding to mentioned that some people are only concerned with themselves, but his post was only about how a mentally handicapped person benefitted him. While that is fine and dandy (and is something I can relate to) shouldn't the discussion be about the people with Down syndrome? Is asking about the potential quality of life that far off base?

From what I've seen and understand, having a child with Down's syndrome can be a much bigger responsibility than having one without. A couple could be prepared and able to raise a child, but not one with Down's syndrome. Is it moral for parents to birth a child that they don't feel capable of raising?

you don't have the right to make that decision. You don't have the right to take that innocent life just because it will inconvenience you. Do we only bring into this world the perfect babies, the ones that don't require special care?

[Weegle777 78]

If these children are such an inconvenience, then why not just do a partial birth and then let the mother cut the baby's throat? I mean, it's her body right?

[DKW 86 7,419]

On top of the boy I knew when I was a kid, my grandfather had a brother that was a special individual. He was able to talk and have some form of conversation with others although not to the level most of us can. He loved checkers and jigsaw puzzles and he was very good at both. I always looked forward to the times when he would stay at my grandparents house. There were challenges to be sure but you just can't get imagine what life would be like without these truly special individuals. Sometimes I get too caught up in my own life and forget that others have something to offer me. Those memories are some of the best I have.

Almost every post in this thread has made me smile. Some people just don't know what they are missing. We don't know exactly what is wrong with my sister. She has a twin (fraternal), her apgar scores were higher than her twins when they were born. Her twin is perfectly normal. We found out when she was 10 years old that she began having seizures the night she was born. The doctors and the hospital never told my parents. The court order they got when she was 10 was the first time we knew anything had happened out of the ordinary. Most of the records were blacked out so we have never found out what happened. My sister doesn't have downs; she can't talk, and I would say in many ways she is only on the level of a 4 to 5 year old. In others only 18 months. She understands everything you say to her. She responds in some ways. She will shake her head yes sometimes..make noises that sound like agreement. Years of living with her has given most of us in the family the ability to mostly read her and tell you what she wants. When she was much younger she seemed to be able to verbalize more than she does now. She would fuss at me and her twin when we played with her, she would tell us to quit and stop. She called her twin Daya...which is not even close to her name and she called me sistar. She used to say Dada. She called my mother Nana..and she said these words seldom. As she has gotten older she says nothing except Trishy. My mothers name is Patricia and my dad called my mom Trish. My sister heard it and picked it up...and began calling my mom Trishy. It is the only word she says now. I can't imagine how much my moms heart has to fill up when she hears that.

I didn't know until I began kindergarten that everyone didn't have a sister like her. I thought everyone did. I was blessed that my friends always loved her and were so sweet to her when they came to our house. To this day the girls I graduated high school with still ask me about her. People who don't have the experience of "special" adults and children just don't know what they are missing. Sure, life can be hard for some of them. Is their life any worse than that of someone who is "normal" that has health problems? These children and adults get to be innocent mostly for life. They get to enjoy the world and show us how to enjoy it as well. When I was told I had cancer, and then that it was stage four, she is what kept me from falling into a depression. How could I be depressed when I had this blessing for a sister. I knew she needed me and I had to be around for her. She has kept me going, helping my mom with her as always have allowed me to keep going and not let the chemo and other treatments really get to me. God blessed my family with her. All of your stories have blessed me today too. BB, those links were great, as a matter of fact I fell down the rabbit hole you could say following all the different links at each website I was led to..lol..DKW and JapanTiger you both are awesome people! All of you are actually, with the exception of one.

To the poster who seemed to be worried about 'the quality of life of these people." "These" people are humans, no different than you, they need love and care and attention just as any child does when they are younger, and any adult does as they age. Sure some of them will never be independent but so what? How many of us have thought "man I wish I could relive my childhood knowing what I know now?" Many of them always get to have a childhood, and if they have good parents and a solid family I can promise you their "quality of life" is much better than anyone else on this board. The children who are unwanted and are unlucky enough to have selfish, immature parents are the ones who suffer. Adoption is the answer here. Despite what you may think there are many people who want a baby badly enough that they don't mind a "special" child. Killing a child simply because they have an extra chromosome is not an excuse.

The person I was responding to mentioned that some people are only concerned with themselves, but his post was only about how a mentally handicapped person benefitted him. While that is fine and dandy (and is something I can relate to) shouldn't the discussion be about the people with Down syndrome? Is asking about the potential quality of life that far off base?

From what I've seen and understand, having a child with Down's syndrome can be a much bigger responsibility than having one without. A couple could be prepared and able to raise a child, but not one with Down's syndrome. Is it moral for parents to birth a child that they don't feel capable of raising?

you don't have the right to make that decision. You don't have the right to take that innocent life just because it will inconvenience you. Do we only bring into this world the perfect babies, the ones that don't require special care?

Let me see...havent we heard this somewhere before...?

“Sparta must be regarded as the first völkisch state. The exposure of the sick, weak, deformed children, in short, their destruction, was more decent and in truth a thousand times more human than the wretched insanity of our day which preserves the most pathological subject.”

― Adolf Hitler

[Weegle777 78]

Uh oh, you are about to be inundated with the wikipedia links on par with the spaghetti monster, occam's razor, straw man theory, Pascal's wager, Godwin's law, and other ridiculousness. Have fun!

[Weegle777 78]

I still say that if it's a woman's body, and if she can do with it as she pleases, just have a partial birth, and let her have the scalpel, then she can kill the baby and terminate her pregnancy. What's wrong with that?