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The Law and Grace Discussion


Weegle777

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Let's start from square one. When was the law given, who was it given to, and why?

Thank you for starting this thread.

The LAW was given to Moses after the exodus. (please notice it was delivered ({John 3:16}) It was given!!!

Nehemiah 9

“You came down also on Mount Sinai,And spoke with them from heaven, gave them just ordinances and true laws,

Good statutes and commandments. You made known to them Your holy Sabbath,

And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws,By the hand of Moses Your servant.

"You gave them bread from heaven for their hunger,

And brought them water out of the rock for their thirst,"

There were many tribes present when the LAW was given not just Judah(Jews). There was also gentiles present (the multitude).

It was given because of transgression. (transgression of what???)

Remember it was given as a gift from heaven.

James 1

Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Square one...

Gods LAW is eternal. It was before Adam and it will be until all is fulfilled.

If no man has seen the FATHER or his form neither has anyone heard his voice at anytime.... Who spoke to Moses face to face? GOD the FATHER or GOD the SON? It was Jesus who gave Moses the LAW!!! Do you believe?

John 6

"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.…"

John 5

"But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish-- the very works that I do-- testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38"You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

Exodus 3:14

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM

John 14

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

“If you love Me, keep[d] My commandments.

He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Matthew 12

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

JESUS IS THE GREAT "IAM" that spoke to MOSES!!!

Psalm 119

153 Consider my affliction and deliver me,

For I do not forget Your law.

154 Plead my cause and redeem me;

Revive me according to Your word.

155 Salvation is far from the wicked,

For they do not seek Your statutes.

156 Great are Your tender mercies, O Lord;

Revive me according to Your judgments.

157 Many are my persecutors and my enemies,

Yet I do not turn from Your testimonies.

158 I see the treacherous, and am disgusted,

Because they do not keep Your word.

159 Consider how I love Your precepts;

Revive me, O Lord, according to Your lovingkindness.

160 The entirety of Your word is truth,

And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

As a child of GOD Adam knew his FATHERS ways but it was not administered as LAW

Sabbath....

Genesis 2

Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Murder...

Genesis 4

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Clean and unclean....

Genesis 7

Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Abraham....

Genesis 26

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Manna before the LAW was spoken to Moses....

Exodus 16

Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?

The LAW was given to Moses because of transgressions.(transgression of what???)

Galatians 3

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Romans 5

Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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The Jews that wondered in the desert were under Grace, as was Abraham. The law wasn't given until Sinai. God never intended the Jews to be under the harsh restraints of the law. The law has already been fulfilled by Jesus on the cross. He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill(complete, satisfy the requirements of, finish, bring to an end.) the law. We are not bound by the law. We have no connection to it and we never have. If you are a gentile, you were never included in the giving of the law, the Jews were. Gentiles had no hope until Jesus.

Even God Himself said the the law was not good.

Hebrews 8:6-13

6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the people of Israel

and with the people of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant

I made with their ancestors

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of Egypt,

because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,

and I turned away from them,

declares the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel

after that time, declares the Lord.

I will put my laws in their minds

and write them on their hearts.

I will be their God,

and they will be my people.

11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,

or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their wickedness

and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Also, do you know that according to the Mosaic law, Jesus cannot be a high priest? He isn't of the tribe of Levi, so He is not able. This is not by accident. God did this so that the New Covenant would be just that New, and would have totally different standards from the Old Covenant that is now obsolete because of the New.

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Great thread.

I like to use humor often as a defense. More often to simply attempt to lighten the mood around here. Sometimes works, sometimes it does not.

God's WORD N E V E R fails. Thanks for sharing and an early Merry Christmas ! ! !

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Speaking only for myself and my faith, I think Jesus pretty well summed it up (for Jews and Gentiles alike):

34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Matthew 22: 34-40 (NRSV)

Or if one prefers Paul's summation:

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Galations 5:14 (RSV)

All other details are mere semantics or academic exercise, in my opinion. (And not unlike the over-zealous legalism or obsession with technicalities for which Jesus condemned the Pharisees.) Fine and interesting for those who enjoy debating it, but of little additional spiritual value.

As for how one fulfills or follows this law, I turn to Matthew 25: 31-46 (again, RSV):

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Not that I'm claiming to have always been successful at this, and I can certainly do better!)

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Weegle, What was wrong with the first covenant? God or the other party? A covenant is made between two parties. The LAW was just the terms of the agreement.

Hebrews 8 as well

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with

>>>>>>them,<<<<<<

he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

New covenant with better promises. Not new laws because listen to the next few lines...

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

It is hard to be merciful and have sins present where this is no LAW.

GOD never said the LAW was not good. He found fault with the 2nd party of the covenant not his ways and LAWS. Not even PAUL would say such a thing.

Romans 7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul said...

THE LAW IS HOLY....

You say that gentiles were never to partake in the LAW. That is not what PAUL said...

Did GOD replace or forsake Israel and the prophets?

Romans 11

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

What are grafted into???

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

They were broken off (out of covenant) because they refused to put faith in GOD. Should we make the same mistake they did???

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Whom do you say spoke to Moses face to face????

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How does one LOVE GOD if they disdain and refuse his instruction? How is your love for GOD revealed to other people?

Jesus was pointing back to Deuteronomy 6 when he said the greatest commandment.

Deuteronomy 6

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Mark 12

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Everything written from Genesis to Revelation hang from these two commandments.

They are not annulled by the commandments... They show how to fulfill them.

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Speaking only for myself and my faith, I think Jesus pretty well summed it up (for Jews and Gentiles alike):

34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Matthew 22: 34-40 (NRSV)

Jesus wasn't commanding anything here, He was simply answering a question posed to Him by the Pharisees in an attempt to trap Him so they could arrest Him.

Or if one prefers Paul's summation:

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Galations 5:14 (RSV)

This is the law written on our hearts.

All other details are mere semantics or academic exercise, in my opinion. (And not unlike the over-zealous legalism or obsession with technicalities for which Jesus condemned the Pharisees.) Fine and interesting for those who enjoy debating it, but of little additional spiritual value.

Oh, if you don't have the difference in law and grace straight, it can hold significant consequences to how you perceive who you really are in Christ.

As for how one fulfills or follows this law, I turn to Matthew 25: 31-46 (again, RSV):

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

We don't have any part in fulfilling anything. It has already been finished, completed, and fulfilled. Jesus completed the work, we can do nothing to add to or take away from what He did. Jesus gave one command. Love others as I have loved you. That is it. That is why He says that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. If you attach the word "do" to anything connected to Grace other than to rest in His finished work, you venture back into the law, which you have been freed from.

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Weegle, Can we discuss fulfill?

Jesus was not a woman so he could not keep a single commandment that was written for woman.

He was not a farmer so he could not keep them.

He was not a Levite so he never kept any of the Levitical instructions.

So this cannot be the meaning of fulfill.

What about baptism? Did Jesus do away with that too?

Matthew 3

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Churches baptize because Jesus "fulfilled" it to us. (not for us)

Here is a list of definitions for the Greek word "pleroo" (fullfil)

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

to render full, i.e. to complete

to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim

to make complete in every particular, to render perfect

to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

of matters of duty: to perform, execute

of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

It is our choice to decide how this word is to be understood. But please remember that Jesus narrowed down the possible candidates.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:"

Has everything been fulfilled from the LAW and the prophets?

Has Christ returned?

How about this one?

Psalm 110:1

The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

Paul and Revelations says no!!!

1 Corinthians 15

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Revelation 20

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

So does Jesus have anything to say about this?

Matthew 5

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Let me check outside to see if the heaven and earth has been destroyed by fervent heat.

Revelation 21

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

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Weegle, What was wrong with the first covenant? God or the other party? A covenant is made between two parties. The LAW was just the terms of the agreement.

Hebrews 8 as well

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with

>>>>>>them,<<<<<<

he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

New covenant with better promises. Not new laws because listen to the next few lines...

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

It is hard to be merciful and have sins present where this is no LAW.

GOD never said the LAW was not good. He found fault with the 2nd party of the covenant not his ways and LAWS. Not even PAUL would say such a thing.

Romans 7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul said...

THE LAW IS HOLY....

You say that gentiles were never to partake in the LAW. That is not what PAUL said...

Did GOD replace or forsake Israel and the prophets?

Romans 11

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

What are grafted into???

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

They were broken off (out of covenant) because they refused to put faith in GOD. Should we make the same mistake they did???

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Whom do you say spoke to Moses face to face????

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant God found fault with the First or Old Covenant. And you are correct, the law is holy and just and perfect. That is the entire reason that Jesus came. Because we could never fulfill the law and would live our lives in misery trying to. And the law does one thing, it sheds light on sin. Because as you posted earlier, where there is no law, there is no sin. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law so that we could be free from the law. The law of what is right and what is wrong is now written on our hearts. When you become a follower of Jesus, you are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness. You have ALL sin past, present, and future forgiven and taken away, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and seated in heaven with Christ at the right hand of the Father. You are righteous, holy, perfect, unstained, unblemished, and spotless. As He is right now, so are we in this world. Even John said, "Behold the Lamb, who TAKETH away the SIN of the world." We are no longer sinners, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. We battle against the embodiment of sin and the flesh, but we are no longer sinners, or that would be calling Him a liar.
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We don't have any part in fulfilling anything. It has already been finished, completed, and fulfilled. Jesus completed the work, we can do nothing to add to or take away from what He did. Jesus gave one command. Love others as I have loved you. That is it. That is why He says that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. If you attach the word "do" to anything connected to Grace other than to rest in His finished work, you venture back into the law, which you have been freed from.

So we should not baptize? I say do

So we should not feed the poor? I say do

1 John 2:1

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

You have ventured into Hyper Grace which is not what the gospel teaches. Hyper Grace is lawlessness.

2 Thessalonians 2

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Sorry, I mistyped. I meant God found fault with the First or Old Covenant. And you are correct, the law is holy and just and perfect. That is the entire reason that Jesus came. Because we could never fulfill the law and would live our lives in misery trying to. And the law does one thing, it sheds light on sin. Because as you posted earlier, where there is no law, there is no sin. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law so that we could be free from the law. The law of what is right and what is wrong is now written on our hearts. When you become a follower of Jesus, you are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness. You have ALL sin past, present, and future forgiven and taken away, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and seated in heaven with Christ at the right hand of the Father. You are righteous, holy, perfect, unstained, unblemished, and spotless. As He is right now, so are we in this world. Even John said, "Behold the Lamb, who TAKETH away the SIN of the world." We are no longer sinners, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. We battle against the embodiment of sin and the flesh, but we are no longer sinners, or that would be calling Him a liar.

No problem brother. Thanks for clarifying.

If God did so much for you why then do you ignore the very things that caused Jesus to be crucified?

Whom do you say gave Moses the LAW?

I am also trying to understand how Jesus saved us from Moses LAW when you teach that gentiles were never given the LAW. How can we be saved from a LAW that was never meant for us? Something is flawed there.

We were not under LAW in the first place.

Jesus saved us from the LAW that we were never under?

Does not make since.

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Please explain this in your words verse by verse...

1 John 3

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

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Weegle, Can we discuss fulfill?

Jesus was not a woman so he could not keep a single commandment that was written for woman.

He was not a farmer so he could not keep them.

He was not a Levite so he never kept any of the Levitical instructions.

So this cannot be the meaning of fulfill.

I'm not following what you are saying here.

What about baptism? Did Jesus do away with that too?

Matthew 3

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Churches baptize because Jesus "fulfilled" it to us. (not for us)

Baptism is nothing more than an outward display of what has been done on the inside. If you are never baptized, that doesn't mean that your salvation is null and void.

Here is a list of definitions for the Greek word "pleroo" (fullfil)

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

to render full, i.e. to complete

to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim

to make complete in every particular, to render perfect

to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

of matters of duty: to perform, execute

of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

It is our choice to decide how this word is to be understood. But please remember that Jesus narrowed down the possible candidates.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:"

Be careful here. It is not our choice, the Bible says what it says. If you don't take care to understand the context in which each passage is written, you can go down some strange roads. It is always good to make sure that you know who wrote the passage, who the passage was written to, and why it was written to them

Has everything been fulfilled from the LAW and the prophets?

Yes it has by Jesus dying on the cross and being raised again to glory.

Has Christ returned?

How about this one?

Psalm 110:1

The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

The two Lords in this passage refer to two different hebrew words, "L" ord (Yahweh) and "l"ord (Adon). The second lord could have been David referring to himself. No one knows.

Paul and Revelations says no!!!

1 Corinthians 15

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Revelation 20

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

So does Jesus have anything to say about this?

Matthew 5

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Let me check outside to see if the heaven and earth has been destroyed by fervent heat.

Revelation 21

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

What does Revelation have to do with those who are followers of Jesus? We will be caught up with Him before that series of events happens.

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We are no longer sinners, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. We battle against the embodiment of sin and the flesh, but we are no longer sinners, or that would be calling Him a liar.

Please forgive me but this is in direct contradiction to what the Gospel teaches. This is a hyper grace gospel.

Galatians 1

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

1 John 1

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

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We don't have any part in fulfilling anything. It has already been finished, completed, and fulfilled. Jesus completed the work, we can do nothing to add to or take away from what He did. Jesus gave one command. Love others as I have loved you. That is it. That is why He says that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. If you attach the word "do" to anything connected to Grace other than to rest in His finished work, you venture back into the law, which you have been freed from.

So we should not baptize? I say do

Sure we should.

So we should not feed the poor? I say do

Sure we should, but if we don't, we don't lose our salvation.

1 John 2:1

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

You have ventured into Hyper Grace which is not what the gospel teaches. Hyper Grace is lawlessness.

Grace is Grace. Working for the Kingdom is something that we GET to do, not something that is required of us. We should want to work for the Kingdom. But if we don't, we don't lose our salvation. I think we are talking about two different things here. I am talking about salvation and how we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are saved forever and cleansed and forgiven forever.

2 Thessalonians 2

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This passage is talking about unbelievers.

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We are no longer sinners, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. We battle against the embodiment of sin and the flesh, but we are no longer sinners, or that would be calling Him a liar.

Please forgive me but this is in direct contradiction to what the Gospel teaches. This is a hyper grace gospel.

Galatians 1

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

This is truth. I agree.

1 John 1

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ONCE and for all. One time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had sin in my body, until Jesus' blood cleansed me from ALL unrighteousness and then sealed me with His Spirit.. That is what I did when I believed in my heart and confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord. I agreed with Him that I was a sinner in need of a Saviour.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Let me ask you this: What is the payment for sin? BLOOD. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. Jesus died one time, He shed His blood once for ALL sin. If we sin again, is that sin covered and forgiven? If not, and we have to ask for forgiveness for that sin, who has to shed more blood to cover that sin?

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I did say that I was a sinner. I agreed with Him that I was a sinner in need of His cleansing blood.

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Grace is Grace. Working for the Kingdom is something that we GET to do, not something that is required of us. We should want to work for the Kingdom. But if we don't, we don't lose our salvation. I think we are talking about two different things here. I am talking about salvation and how we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are saved forever and cleansed and forgiven forever.

Wow... That is not what Jesus said

Matthew 7

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;

but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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Let me ask you this: What is the payment for sin? BLOOD. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. Jesus died one time, He shed His blood once for ALL sin. If we sin again, is that sin covered and forgiven? If not, and we have to ask for forgiveness for that sin, who has to shed more blood to cover that sin?

The shedding of blood is of no value without repentance from said sin.

If you do not repent from the sin Jesus blood is not for you.

Acts 26:20

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Acts 3:19

"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;"

Repent from what? Return to what?

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Let me ask you this: What is the payment for sin? BLOOD. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. Jesus died one time, He shed His blood once for ALL sin. If we sin again, is that sin covered and forgiven? If not, and we have to ask for forgiveness for that sin, who has to shed more blood to cover that sin?

The shedding of blood is of no value without repentance from said sin.

So you are saying that Jesus' blood holds no value "until" we repent? Do you know what repent means? It means to change your mind from what you would normally think. This is why it is written:

Romans 12 New King James Version (NKJV)12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

If you do not repent from the sin Jesus blood is not for you.

Acts 26:20

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Acts 3:19

"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;"

Repent from what? Return to what?

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Romans 12 New King James Version (NKJV)12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.[/b]

Which is exactly why I preach the LAW was not done away with!

Leviticus 20

'You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean.

'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

1 Peter 1

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {ignorant of what}

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Dueteronomy 10

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

20 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

Do you believe that Jesus is the GOD of Moses???

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Please let me take this time to thank you Weegle for such a great conversation. I fully intend to keep the conversation going but just wanted to keep in focus that we both accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. In my eyes we are brothers and no difference of opinion on scripture can separate us. We are both called to grow in GRACE and these conversations is exactly how we keep our minds and hearts on his word. It is hard to express feelings thru a computer but I have no ill feelings toward you or your thoughts. We are simple doing the same thing Job did which is contend for our faith in Christ.

Our main disconnect is that I completely believe that Jesus was the one that spoke to Moses. The Son of GOD was sent to save us from sin. This first had to be accomplished by bringing sin to light. Not only did Jesus give Moses the LAW, he came in the flesh and fully taught how to live by the LAW. His death and resurrection is proof that living an acceptable life pleasing to GOD will not be forsaken by our FATHER who has always been in heaven.

There is nothing I can do to earn salvation. Salvation is only thru Jesus and this is a done deal. I either accept it or reject it. My baptism was an outward exp<b></b>ression that I died to my old self and now allow Jesus to live in me. This is exactly what John the Baptist meant when he said, "I must decrease, he must increase"

Salvation and Justification is only because Jesus bought me with the price of his blood.

Now let sanctification continue to work in my life. My old self and ways must continue to decrease and Jesus and his ways must increase.

1 Corinthians 15

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily"

John 17

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Psalm 119

157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.

158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O Lord, according to thy lovingkindness.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

160 >>>>>>>>>>Thy word is true from the beginning<<<<<<<<<<: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.

162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

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