Getting Out Of Afghanistan

[AUUSN 823]

This is a fantastic article on the massive operation known as 'retrograde.' It is a huge cost of War that most overlook.

"By the time we thought about leaving Afghanistan, we’d been tossing gear into the country for more than a decade. This is the story of how we moved out.

By E.B. Boyd

The convoy of army trucks, cranes, and flatbeds has been chugging its way under cover of darkness through the craggy mountains of eastern Afghanistan for hours. Now just a few miles from its destination, an outpost in the town of Chamkani, a stone’s throw from the border with Pakistan, the sun is beginning to uncloak the convoy’s movements. The gunners are swiveling back and forth atop armored trucks, searching the steep mountain walls for signs of an ambush. Combat engineers at the front of the line—the bomb hunters, known as sappers—scour the road for signs of IEDs. The soldiers are pretty sure they’re going to get hit. They just don’t know when.

No one in this convoy is looking for a fight. They’re mostly logistics guys, the United Van Lines of the U.S. Army. Their mission is to pack up the last of the gear from Combat Outpost Chamkani so that the place can be handed over to the Afghan army. America’s longest war is over for U.S. troops for the most part. All these guys want to do is bug on out.

Too bad the enemy around here doesn’t care. As long as there are Americans in the area, they’re going to keep hunting. When the Soviets tried to leave in the 1980s, the mujahideen trapped soldiers on narrow mountain roads just like this one and massacred them. Today’s insurgents have even more reason to attack. They’ve got PR points to score—every successful attack on the Americans moves them up the global jihadist scoreboard.

The sappers halt the convoy. They want to reconnoiter a patch of road on foot, maybe peek into a culvert to see if the Taliban have left them a present. The soldiers further back are on guard. Military intelligence officers warned them there’s a fighter around here who can hit convoys from the mountainsides. A few months ago, he slammed a round into a truck belonging to another unit, slicing a soldier in two. Not moving like this, the soldiers are sitting ducks. As the sappers inspect the road, the gunners keep scanning the mountain walls. Not finding anything, the sappers climb back into their trucks. The soldiers up and down the column let out a collective breath as the trucks start rumbling forward again.

And that’s when they get hit." http://www.fastcompany.com/3041147/getting-out-of-afghanistan#!

[autigeremt 6,560]

Leaving that place like we have ever other war since WWII.......no real victory, just more lost blood and treasure. Infuriating.

[WarTim 3,456]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

[AUUSN 823]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

[RunInRed 16,354]

What a fascinating read ... thanks for posting ... enjoying that site as well.

[autigeremt 6,560]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

If we tried to fight these wars with a more "regular" mentality we might be able to leave without having our heads on a swivel. My hard fought for opinion.

[cptau 169]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

The modern military is a lot like college kids. College student use to go off to a college dorm with everything they needed in the trunk of their parent's car. Now they need a truck to haul all their stuff and a place to live with AC, cable TV, and Internet access.

WWI ended in an armistice. We left and were back fighting the next war there 24 years later.

WWII was total war with unconditional surrender. There was talk of SS Werwolves attacking after the surrender, but we killed anyone that caused problems like that after VE day. We stayed in Europe for 45 years until the Russians went bankrupted. The Russians were so broke that the West Germans paid to ship their forces in East Germany back to Russia. They even paid to build housing in Russia for the Russian troops. US troops are still in Europe and there has been no war with the Germans or Russians either.

Korea, we stayed in South Korea after the armistice and are still there over 60 years later. South Korea is still a free country.

South Vietnam, we pulled out of the country almost immediately it went communist and still is. We left behind lots of equipment too.

In Iraq and Afghanistan we are repeating the failed Vietnam war model, send troops, win, try to nation build, give up and go home. then the countries start to fall.

[WarTim 3,456]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

The modern military is a lot like college kids. College student use to go off to a college dorm with everything they needed in the trunk of their parent's car. Now they need a truck to haul all their stuff and a place to live with AC, cable TV, and Internet access.

WWI ended in an armistice. We left and were back fighting the next war there 24 years later.

WWII was total war with unconditional surrender. There was talk of SS Werwolves attacking after the surrender, but we killed anyone that caused problems like that after VE day. We stayed in Europe for 45 years until the Russians went bankrupted. The Russians were so broke that the West Germans paid to ship their forces in East Germany back to Russia. They even paid to build housing in Russia for the Russian troops. US troops are still in Europe and there has been no war with the Germans or Russians either.

Korea, we stayed in South Korea after the armistice and are still there over 60 years later. South Korea is still a free country.

South Vietnam, we pulled out of the country almost immediately it went communist and still is. We left behind lots of equipment too.

In Iraq and Afghanistan we are repeating the failed Vietnam war model, send troops, win, try to nation build, give up and go home. then the countries start to fall.

Well stated. Jonestowners will never see the forest for the trees.

[AUUSN 823]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

The modern military is a lot like college kids. College student use to go off to a college dorm with everything they needed in the trunk of their parent's car. Now they need a truck to haul all their stuff and a place to live with AC, cable TV, and Internet access.

WWI ended in an armistice. We left and were back fighting the next war there 24 years later.

WWII was total war with unconditional surrender. There was talk of SS Werwolves attacking after the surrender, but we killed anyone that caused problems like that after VE day. We stayed in Europe for 45 years until the Russians went bankrupted. The Russians were so broke that the West Germans paid to ship their forces in East Germany back to Russia. They even paid to build housing in Russia for the Russian troops. US troops are still in Europe and there has been no war with the Germans or Russians either.

Korea, we stayed in South Korea after the armistice and are still there over 60 years later. South Korea is still a free country.

South Vietnam, we pulled out of the country almost immediately it went communist and still is. We left behind lots of equipment too.

In Iraq and Afghanistan we are repeating the failed Vietnam war model, send troops, win, try to nation build, give up and go home. then the countries start to fall.

Great response, a little off topic, but great response. War termination is a subject I'm pretty interested in. There's a great book I recommend:

[AUUSN 823]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

If we tried to fight these wars with a more "regular" mentality we might be able to leave without having our heads on a swivel. My hard fought for opinion.

Not sure you mean by "regular" mentality but I'm of the opinion that FID (foreign internal defense) is an important step in a war campaign after MCO has ended.

[autigeremt 6,560]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

If we tried to fight these wars with a more "regular" mentality we might be able to leave without having our heads on a swivel. My hard fought for opinion.

Not sure you mean by "regular" mentality but I'm of the opinion that FID (foreign internal defense) is an important step in a war campaign after MCO has ended.

Regular means using the tactics of overwhelming force like we did leading up to Desert Storm. Not using this method (thank you idiot Rumsfeld) insured the long, drawn out disaster that followed. We should have focused our entire effort on Afghanistan. The boondoggle that was Iraq could have been managed with a couple of airstrikes on Saddam.

All the good we have done in Afghanistan will come crumbling down once we have moved all of our forces out. I pray for the women and children we leave behind.

[AUUSN 823]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

If we tried to fight these wars with a more "regular" mentality we might be able to leave without having our heads on a swivel. My hard fought for opinion.

Not sure you mean by "regular" mentality but I'm of the opinion that FID (foreign internal defense) is an important step in a war campaign after MCO has ended.

Regular means using the tactics of overwhelming force like we did leading up to Desert Storm. Not using this method (thank you idiot Rumsfeld) insured the long, drawn out disaster that followed. We should have focused our entire effort on Afghanistan. The boondoggle that was Iraq could have been managed with a couple of airstrikes on Saddam.

All the good we have done in Afghanistan will come crumbling down once we have moved all of our forces out. I pray for the women and children we leave behind.

I agree completly.

[homersapien 11,347]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

If we tried to fight these wars with a more "regular" mentality we might be able to leave without having our heads on a swivel. My hard fought for opinion.

Not sure you mean by "regular" mentality but I'm of the opinion that FID (foreign internal defense) is an important step in a war campaign after MCO has ended.

Regular means using the tactics of overwhelming force like we did leading up to Desert Storm. Not using this method (thank you idiot Rumsfeld) insured the long, drawn out disaster that followed. We should have focused our entire effort on Afghanistan. The boondoggle that was Iraq could have been managed with a couple of airstrikes on Saddam.

All the good we have done in Afghanistan will come crumbling down once we have moved all of our forces out. I pray for the women and children we leave behind.

I agree completly.

Me too. It might have failed anyway, but shifting attention to Iraq guaranteed it.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

[alexava 6,972]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

If we tried to fight these wars with a more "regular" mentality we might be able to leave without having our heads on a swivel. My hard fought for opinion.

Not sure you mean by "regular" mentality but I'm of the opinion that FID (foreign internal defense) is an important step in a war campaign after MCO has ended.

Regular means using the tactics of overwhelming force like we did leading up to Desert Storm. Not using this method (thank you idiot Rumsfeld) insured the long, drawn out disaster that followed. We should have focused our entire effort on Afghanistan. The boondoggle that was Iraq could have been managed with a couple of airstrikes on Saddam.

All the good we have done in Afghanistan will come crumbling down once we have moved all of our forces out. I pray for the women and children we leave behind.

I agree completly.

Me too. It might have failed anyway, but shifting attention to Iraq guaranteed it.

might be the most agreeable thread on here in a while.

[caleb1633 1,418]

One thing we need to keep in mind is that it takes a long time to establish a democracy. We were still shedding blood in the U.S. one hundred years after our constitution was written, debating how democracy (a republic really) should be run. To this day we still don't agree on it.

Now you go into a country that has zero desire and limited infrastructure capable of establishing a democracy, and we expect them to get it together in less than 10, 15, 20 years? It takes a LONG time to change a culture. So either we don't get involved or we stay the course until that culture is changed.

Unfortunately, as a country we lack the resolve necessary to finish an irregular war. Every opponent in the world knows that the best way to defeat America is "death by a thousand cuts". Being fully committed to victory doesn't just mean going in heavy handed with all the power we can muster, it means outlasting our enemy.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

One thing we need to keep in mind is that it takes a long time to establish a democracy. We were still shedding blood in the U.S. one hundred years after our constitution was written, debating how democracy (a republic really) should be run. To this day we still don't agree on it.

Now you go into a country that has zero desire and limited infrastructure capable of establishing a democracy, and we expect them to get it together in less than 10, 15, 20 years? It takes a LONG time to change a culture. So either we don't get involved or we stay the course until that culture is changed.

Unfortunately, as a country we lack the resolve necessary to finish an irregular war. Every opponent in the world knows that the best way to defeat America is "death by a thousand cuts". Being fully committed to victory doesn't just mean going in heavy handed with all the power we can muster, it means outlasting our enemy.

I agree with most of your post. However, I am not sure the issue is resolve. We did a pretty good job with the first Gulf War. We had a clear objective and we achieved it. Perhaps in the case of "irregular" war, we have to reexamine our objectives and tactics?

[homersapien 11,347]

In WWII we had the right mindset. TOTAL victory without compromise.

What does that have to do with the article poste? In WWII retrograde was easy because no one was shooting at you or planting IEDs on the way out. WWII was total war, this is irregular warfare.

If we tried to fight these wars with a more "regular" mentality we might be able to leave without having our heads on a swivel. My hard fought for opinion.

Not sure you mean by "regular" mentality but I'm of the opinion that FID (foreign internal defense) is an important step in a war campaign after MCO has ended.

Regular means using the tactics of overwhelming force like we did leading up to Desert Storm. Not using this method (thank you idiot Rumsfeld) insured the long, drawn out disaster that followed. We should have focused our entire effort on Afghanistan. The boondoggle that was Iraq could have been managed with a couple of airstrikes on Saddam.

All the good we have done in Afghanistan will come crumbling down once we have moved all of our forces out. I pray for the women and children we leave behind.

I don't think the lack of overwhelming force is as much of a problem as the long term occupation that must follow. You are probably right about what will happen when we move our forces out, but keeping them there indefinitely is no answer either. I doubt it we could stay long enough to change the politics and culture.

[alexava 6,972]

One thing we need to keep in mind is that it takes a long time to establish a democracy. We were still shedding blood in the U.S. one hundred years after our constitution was written, debating how democracy (a republic really) should be run. To this day we still don't agree on it.

Now you go into a country that has zero desire and limited infrastructure capable of establishing a democracy, and we expect them to get it together in less than 10, 15, 20 years? It takes a LONG time to change a culture. So either we don't get involved or we stay the course until that culture is changed.

Unfortunately, as a country we lack the resolve necessary to finish an irregular war. Every opponent in the world knows that the best way to defeat America is "death by a thousand cuts". Being fully committed to victory doesn't just mean going in heavy handed with all the power we can muster, it means outlasting our enemy.

problem is we don't know who the enemy is and we create more enemies. Almost a no win situation from the start.

[autigeremt 6,560]

I believe it's a combination of poor planning, failed Intel, a lack of understanding in the region, emotions, politics........politics. At least on our side. When you don't have a clear objective and a good contingency plan in place you end up with a mess.

[homersapien 11,347]

One thing we need to keep in mind is that it takes a long time to establish a democracy. We were still shedding blood in the U.S. one hundred years after our constitution was written, debating how democracy (a republic really) should be run. To this day we still don't agree on it.

Now you go into a country that has zero desire and limited infrastructure capable of establishing a democracy, and we expect them to get it together in less than 10, 15, 20 years? It takes a LONG time to change a culture. So either we don't get involved or we stay the course until that culture is changed.

Unfortunately, as a country we lack the resolve necessary to finish an irregular war. Every opponent in the world knows that the best way to defeat America is "death by a thousand cuts". Being fully committed to victory doesn't just mean going in heavy handed with all the power we can muster, it means outlasting our enemy.

Good points.

(BTW,I didn't crib from you, I posted my version of this before I read yours.)

[homersapien 11,347]

One thing we need to keep in mind is that it takes a long time to establish a democracy. We were still shedding blood in the U.S. one hundred years after our constitution was written, debating how democracy (a republic really) should be run. To this day we still don't agree on it.

Now you go into a country that has zero desire and limited infrastructure capable of establishing a democracy, and we expect them to get it together in less than 10, 15, 20 years? It takes a LONG time to change a culture. So either we don't get involved or we stay the course until that culture is changed.

Unfortunately, as a country we lack the resolve necessary to finish an irregular war. Every opponent in the world knows that the best way to defeat America is "death by a thousand cuts". Being fully committed to victory doesn't just mean going in heavy handed with all the power we can muster, it means outlasting our enemy.

I agree with most of your post. However, I am not sure the issue is resolve. We did a pretty good job with the first Gulf War. We had a clear objective and we achieved it. Perhaps in the case of "irregular" war, we have to reexamine our objectives and tactics?

That was a very modest and limited objective compared to the "nation building" goals we took on more recently.

[homersapien 11,347]

I believe it's a combination of poor planning, failed Intel, a lack of understanding in the region, emotions, politics........politics. At least on our side. When you don't have a clear objective and a good contingency plan in place you end up with a mess.

If you set an unrealistic goal the planning doesn't really matter.

[autigeremt 6,560]

I believe it's a combination of poor planning, failed Intel, a lack of understanding in the region, emotions, politics........politics. At least on our side. When you don't have a clear objective and a good contingency plan in place you end up with a mess.

If you set an unrealistic goal the planning doesn't really matter.

True....but the goal was a moving target at times.

[homersapien 11,347]

I believe it's a combination of poor planning, failed Intel, a lack of understanding in the region, emotions, politics........politics. At least on our side. When you don't have a clear objective and a good contingency plan in place you end up with a mess.

If you set an unrealistic goal the planning doesn't really matter.

True....but the goal was a moving target at times.

Regarding Afghanistan yes. Or at least I don't recall much of an objective beyond killing Bin Laden and his crew. I could be wrong about this and maybe we did have an earlier goal of regime change. If so, we completely got distracted.

Iraq, not so much. It was regime change from the beginning.