'I disagree with your views on rape and incest' but...

[RunInRed 16,383]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

[tylerj19 0]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

Yes, I could support someone, even if I disagree on exceptions to an abortion ban in cases of rape and incest. That's what they disagree on ultimately, not the act of rape and incest.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

He needs votes to repeal Obama Care.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

[autigeremt 6,598]

When your guy sucks as bas as theirs they will look for any and all crumbs. This guy from Indiana should have kept his mouth shut and kept his personal viewpiont to himself. One day (doubt it) people who get elected or run for office will remeber that they are part of a system that shounldn't care for a personal viewpoint but the viewpoint of the majority of their constituencies.

God help us all.

[au2004ece 30]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

You people fight so hard to kill babies. If only you guys could have used this energy to help the economy.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

[au2004ece 30]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

Think about all the people that exist now and know they are a product of rape or incest. Would you tell them they are a horrible thing? Do you believe they should have been aborted?

[msg6367 1]

When your guy sucks as bas as theirs they will look for any and all crumbs. This guy from Indiana should have kept his mouth shut and kept his personal viewpiont to himself. One day (doubt it) people who get elected or run for office will remeber that they are part of a system that shounldn't care for a personal viewpoint but the viewpoint of the majority of their constituencies.

God help us all.

IN and MO were sure Republican wins but selecting extreme candidates will cost the party in both states.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

[au2004ece 30]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

No. God can take the product of evil and turn it into a person that makes the world a better place.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

Think about all the people that exist now and know they are a product of rape or incest. Would you tell them they are a horrible thing? Do you believe they should have been aborted?

Who said anything about abortion? Do you believe the compassionate Christ that gives us freewill and grace really works through acts of rape and incest? That is my question.

[tylerj19 0]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

And if they can't speak for Christ's intentions, you can speak for them. Even if he can't prove that God's plan works through incest, you can prove it doesn't?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand what I've said?

Incest was not God's intent. He did not will/decree/ordain that to happen. Human do terrible things to each other and that is a consequence of free will. However, in the midst of pain, suffering and evil, God can cause/will/ordain good to come out of it.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

No. God can take the product of evil and turn it into a person that makes the world a better place.

No, that is not what he said nor what TT is defending.

[au2004ece 30]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

Think about all the people that exist now and know they are a product of rape or incest. Would you tell them they are a horrible thing? Do you believe they should have been aborted?

Who said anything about abortion? Do you believe the compassionate Christ that gives us freewill and grace really works through acts of rape and incest? That is my question.

You are not that damn dimwitted. The entire topic is about abortion.

If you truly believe the man thinks rape and incest are good, then discussing this with is not worth any time.

No, he does not work through those acts but he works in their aftermath.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand what I've said?

Incest was not God's intent. He did not will/decree/ordain that to happen. Human do terrible things to each other and that is a consequence of free will. However, in the midst of pain, suffering and evil, God can cause/will/ordain good to come out of it.

No, when I feel someone is deliberately mean spirited or disrespectful, I will typically be sarcastic and/or obtuse. I have never felt you were, or are now, doing that. However, you said you could speak to the intentions of the statement. If you take the statement at face value, I understand it to say that this is a blessed conception, "God intended it to happen". I don't believe God works that way. Can good come from bad? I believe so. I don't believe we are puppets on strings. I believe aside from infinite love, freewill and grace are our greatest gifts from God. I believe good comes from us applying the principles of Christ and allowing Christ to work through us, not Christ working through rapist. We are not here to judge one another nor enforce God's will or law. We are here to love and support one another. To even remotely suggest that Christians should act as though a young girl who is pregnant with her uncle's child should be joyous becuase this baby is a gift from God, is in my opinion, absurd. Please note though, that I would never pretend to speak for God. I believe we all have a personal relationship with God if we choose to. I believe as Christians we should be more understanding and tolerant. It seems reasonable to me that God may not be telling you and me the same thing.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

Think about all the people that exist now and know they are a product of rape or incest. Would you tell them they are a horrible thing? Do you believe they should have been aborted?

Who said anything about abortion? Do you believe the compassionate Christ that gives us freewill and grace really works through acts of rape and incest? That is my question.

You are not that damn dimwitted. The entire topic is about abortion.

If you truly believe the man thinks rape and incest are good, then discussing this with is not worth any time.

No, he does not work through those acts but he works in their aftermath.

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

Think about all the people that exist now and know they are a product of rape or incest. Would you tell them they are a horrible thing? Do you believe they should have been aborted?

Who said anything about abortion? Do you believe the compassionate Christ that gives us freewill and grace really works through acts of rape and incest? That is my question.

You are not that damn dimwitted. The entire topic is about abortion.

If you truly believe the man thinks rape and incest are good, then discussing this with is not worth any time.

No, he does not work through those acts but he works in their aftermath.

Why are you so angry? I respect the fact that you may have a better idea about what the thread is about and I would ask you to please forgive me if I have hijacked the thread. My concern is with his statement, not abortion. I truly read his statement to mean what it says, that "God intended it to happen". Sorry for being a dimwit, but I think your understanding of the thread is wrong and too simple.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

And if they can't speak for Christ's intentions, you can speak for them. Even if he can't prove that God's plan works through incest, you can prove it doesn't?

No, which is why I tried to state my opinion as just that, opinion.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

No, when I feel someone is deliberately mean spirited or disrespectful, I will typically be sarcastic and/or obtuse. I have never felt you were, or are now, doing that. However, you said you could speak to the intentions of the statement. If you take the statement at face value, I understand it to say that this is a blessed conception, "God intended it to happen". I don't believe God works that way. Can good come from bad? I believe so. I don't believe we are puppets on strings. I believe aside from infinite love, freewill and grace are our greatest gifts from God. I believe good comes from us applying the principles of Christ and allowing Christ to work through us, not Christ working through rapist. We are not here to judge one another nor enforce God's will or law. We are here to love and support one another. To even remotely suggest that Christians should act as though a young girl who is pregnant with her uncle's child should be joyous becuase this baby is a gift from God, is in my opinion, absurd. Please note though, that I would never pretend to speak for God. I believe we all have a personal relationship with God if we choose to. I believe as Christians we should be more understanding and tolerant. It seems reasonable to me that God may not be telling you and me the same thing.

You can take joy in a beautiful human person coming into being without being joyous over how it happened. You can respect the wonder that is human life and treat it with the proper dignity and worth it deserves.

Think of it this way...there is a person that has been created that God intended to come into this world. Full stop.

This is a good thing. People are good creations. God loves people. The fact that new life has begun is good. Again, full stop.

The means by which this person came into being was evil. There is nothing good about it. It was awful and we wouldn't wish it on anyone. Period.

One can still extract joy and see good in the fact that a new, wonderful, human person has been created even when the conception itself (the means by which it happened) are terrible.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. I don't think we're actually that far apart.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Some of these arguments about God's intentions are so lame and reflect such a limited view of the Creator. God intended to create man and to give him free will. Good AND evil exists in this world. God has nothing to do with what man decides to do. I dont get arguing about rape and incest from the perspective of involving God in that in any way. God's unconditional love allows man to make his own deciisons in life.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

No, when I feel someone is deliberately mean spirited or disrespectful, I will typically be sarcastic and/or obtuse. I have never felt you were, or are now, doing that. However, you said you could speak to the intentions of the statement. If you take the statement at face value, I understand it to say that this is a blessed conception, "God intended it to happen". I don't believe God works that way. Can good come from bad? I believe so. I don't believe we are puppets on strings. I believe aside from infinite love, freewill and grace are our greatest gifts from God. I believe good comes from us applying the principles of Christ and allowing Christ to work through us, not Christ working through rapist. We are not here to judge one another nor enforce God's will or law. We are here to love and support one another. To even remotely suggest that Christians should act as though a young girl who is pregnant with her uncle's child should be joyous becuase this baby is a gift from God, is in my opinion, absurd. Please note though, that I would never pretend to speak for God. I believe we all have a personal relationship with God if we choose to. I believe as Christians we should be more understanding and tolerant. It seems reasonable to me that God may not be telling you and me the same thing.

You can take joy in a beautiful human person coming into being without being joyous over how it happened. You can respect the wonder that is human life and treat it with the proper dignity and worth it deserves.

Think of it this way...there is a person that has been created that God intended to come into this world. Full stop.

This is a good thing. People are good creations. God loves people. The fact that new life has begun is good. Again, full stop.

The means by which this person came into being was evil. There is nothing good about it. It was awful and we wouldn't wish it on anyone. Period.

One can still extract joy and see good in the fact that a new, wonderful, human person has been created even when the conception itself (the means by which it happened) are terrible.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. I don't think we're actually that far apart.

I don't know. On some level I agree but I think we are actually miles apart. I just don't think you can so conveniently seperate the one from the other. Furthermore, I truly believe we have freewill and that while God may know what is going to happen, we cannot always assume it is what he intended to happen. I believe his plan recognizes freewill and there for has contingencies upon contingencies. I am not sure we have the ability to fully understand and therefore the best that we can do is try to make sure our hearts are in the right place to the best of our ability. I believe your heart is in the right place but at the same time I wonder if your politics are affecting your religion or vice versa. And at the same time, I am wondering if the two even belong together, and to make it even more difficult, I have to ask the same questions of myself.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Some of these arguments about God's intentions are so lame and reflect such a limited view of the Creator. God intended to create man and to give him free will. Good AND evil exists in this world. God has nothing to do with what man decides to do. I dont get arguing about rape and incest from the perspective of involving God in that in any way. God's unconditional love allows man to make his own deciisons in life.

If you are referring to TT and myself, I don't feel we are arguing. I feel we are having a discussion. I find it meaningful. I apologize if you do not.

I do wish I had your sense of infallibility. I wish I had that sense of never being wrong and never having to seek the advice or opinion of others. My views may be lame and limited but I am working mightily to improve.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

I don't know. On some level I agree but I think we are actually miles apart. I just don't think you can so conveniently seperate the one from the other. Furthermore, I truly believe we have freewill and that while God may know what is going to happen, we cannot always assume it is what he intended to happen. I believe his plan recognizes freewill and there for has contingencies upon contingencies. I am not sure we have the ability to fully understand and therefore the best that we can do is try to make sure our hearts are in the right place to the best of our ability. I believe your heart is in the right place but at the same time I wonder if your politics are affecting your religion or vice versa. And at the same time, I am wondering if the two even belong together, and to make it even more difficult, I have to ask the same questions of myself.

I actually strive very hard to make it work the other way around. It's why though I'm conservative, I don't particularly have big issues with Obamacare (aside from the asinine HHS mandate on contraception for religious organizations), think that our tax structure could stand to be altered to quit treating capital gains income as vastly different from salary income (at least above a certain level), oppose torture, the PATRIOT Act, the NDAA and the Iraq War. The best term I can come up with is "socially conservative/fiscally flexible", which really doesn't have much of a home in either party.

I think you can separate the two. God doesn't have to desire or ordain evil things to happen to decide to cause a good to come out of the evil that is happening. It's pretty deep and hard to disentangle sometimes...the fact that He gives free will yet also is involved personally in our affairs. But I do believe that is what Scripture teaches. How exactly it goes down is more mysterious. But I do not think that one must believe that if He ordained a "good" to happen in the midst of an evil action that He also must have ordained the evil action itself.