'I disagree with your views on rape and incest' but...

[TheBlueVue 177]

Some of these arguments about God's intentions are so lame and reflect such a limited view of the Creator. God intended to create man and to give him free will. Good AND evil exists in this world. God has nothing to do with what man decides to do. I dont get arguing about rape and incest from the perspective of involving God in that in any way. God's unconditional love allows man to make his own deciisons in life.

If you are referring to TT and myself, I don't feel we are arguing. I feel we are having a discussion. I find it meaningful. I apologize if you do not.

I do wish I had your sense of infallibility. I wish I had that sense of never being wrong and never having to seek the advice or opinion of others. My views may be lame and limited but I am working mightily to improve.

Some of these arguments about God's intentions are so lame and reflect such a limited view of the Creator. God intended to create man and to give him free will. Good AND evil exists in this world. God has nothing to do with what man decides to do. I dont get arguing about rape and incest from the perspective of involving God in that in any way. God's unconditional love allows man to make his own deciisons in life.

If you are referring to TT and myself, I don't feel we are arguing. I feel we are having a discussion. I find it meaningful. I apologize if you do not.

I do wish I had your sense of infallibility. I wish I had that sense of never being wrong and never having to seek the advice or opinion of others. My views may be lame and limited but I am working mightily to improve.

Good for you

[icanthearyou 4,462]

I don't know. On some level I agree but I think we are actually miles apart. I just don't think you can so conveniently seperate the one from the other. Furthermore, I truly believe we have freewill and that while God may know what is going to happen, we cannot always assume it is what he intended to happen. I believe his plan recognizes freewill and there for has contingencies upon contingencies. I am not sure we have the ability to fully understand and therefore the best that we can do is try to make sure our hearts are in the right place to the best of our ability. I believe your heart is in the right place but at the same time I wonder if your politics are affecting your religion or vice versa. And at the same time, I am wondering if the two even belong together, and to make it even more difficult, I have to ask the same questions of myself.

I actually strive very hard to make it work the other way around. It's why though I'm conservative, I don't particularly have big issues with Obamacare (aside from the asinine HHS mandate on contraception for religious organizations), think that our tax structure could stand to be altered to quit treating capital gains income as vastly different from salary income (at least above a certain level), oppose torture, the PATRIOT Act, the NDAA and the Iraq War. The best term I can come up with is "socially conservative/fiscally flexible", which really doesn't have much of a home in either party.

I think you can separate the two. God doesn't have to desire or ordain evil things to happen to decide to cause a good to come out of the evil that is happening. It's pretty deep and hard to disentangle sometimes...the fact that He gives free will yet also is involved personally in our affairs. But I do believe that is what Scripture teaches. How exactly it goes down is more mysterious. But I do not think that one must believe that if He ordained a "good" to happen in the midst of an evil action that He also must have ordained the evil action itself.

I enjoyed the discussion as usual. We agree on most things. I think the difference comes down to the word intends. While I agree God can create good from bad (hey, I watched my fair share of Vegi-Tales) I can't agree that somehow God intended to bring that about by those means. I guess it just sounds too premeditated to me and I don't think God would have it that way. I always appreciate your opinion and attitude so, maybe that's why I seem like I'm jabbing at you. I'm not really challenging you. I respect your thoughts.

[tylerj19 0]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

And if they can't speak for Christ's intentions, you can speak for them. Even if he can't prove that God's plan works through incest, you can prove it doesn't?

No, which is why I tried to state my opinion as just that, opinion.

In this case, I simply misunderstood the meaning behind your question. My apologies. From reading the continued conversation, it's clear you were having a reasonable debate, and this wasn't just a snarky response, which is how I read it. Therefore, I apologize for my own response.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

And if they can't speak for Christ's intentions, you can speak for them. Even if he can't prove that God's plan works through incest, you can prove it doesn't?

No, which is why I tried to state my opinion as just that, opinion.

In this case, I simply misunderstood the meaning behind your question. My apologies. From reading the continued conversation, it's clear you were having a reasonable debate, and this wasn't just a snarky response, which is how I read it. Therefore, I apologize for my own response.

No problem. You have done nothing to apologize for. Part of the discussion is misunderstandings and explanations, even snarky ones. Most of the people here are good about dishing and receiving it even handedly.

[tylerj19 0]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

And if they can't speak for Christ's intentions, you can speak for them. Even if he can't prove that God's plan works through incest, you can prove it doesn't?

No, which is why I tried to state my opinion as just that, opinion.

In this case, I simply misunderstood the meaning behind your question. My apologies. From reading the continued conversation, it's clear you were having a reasonable debate, and this wasn't just a snarky response, which is how I read it. Therefore, I apologize for my own response.

No problem. You have done nothing to apologize for. Part of the discussion is misunderstandings and explanations, even snarky ones. Most of the people here are good about dishing and receiving it even handedly.

Yeah, I'm noticing. It just seems that most of the time God gets discussed, snark is sure to follow.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

And if they can't speak for Christ's intentions, you can speak for them. Even if he can't prove that God's plan works through incest, you can prove it doesn't?

No, which is why I tried to state my opinion as just that, opinion.

In this case, I simply misunderstood the meaning behind your question. My apologies. From reading the continued conversation, it's clear you were having a reasonable debate, and this wasn't just a snarky response, which is how I read it. Therefore, I apologize for my own response.

No problem. You have done nothing to apologize for. Part of the discussion is misunderstandings and explanations, even snarky ones. Most of the people here are good about dishing and receiving it even handedly.

Yeah, I'm noticing. It just seems that most of the time God gets discussed, snark is sure to follow.

Sad but true. However, I think it is an indication of passion rather than real anger. Lots of snark but there really are only a couple of people here who will be personally insulting and truly mean it. And for those couple of people, I don't believe they are bad, they just lose perspective by taking too much, too personally.

I think the snark is just part of the nature of such discussions. To a great extent though, the people here, regardless of ideology, are the kind of people you want on your side. Right or wrong, they at least care about what is going on.

[tylerj19 0]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

And if they can't speak for Christ's intentions, you can speak for them. Even if he can't prove that God's plan works through incest, you can prove it doesn't?

No, which is why I tried to state my opinion as just that, opinion.

In this case, I simply misunderstood the meaning behind your question. My apologies. From reading the continued conversation, it's clear you were having a reasonable debate, and this wasn't just a snarky response, which is how I read it. Therefore, I apologize for my own response.

No problem. You have done nothing to apologize for. Part of the discussion is misunderstandings and explanations, even snarky ones. Most of the people here are good about dishing and receiving it even handedly.

Yeah, I'm noticing. It just seems that most of the time God gets discussed, snark is sure to follow.

Sad but true. However, I think it is an indication of passion rather than real anger. Lots of snark but there really are only a couple of people here who will be personally insulting and truly mean it. And for those couple of people, I don't believe they are bad, they just lose perspective by taking too much, too personally.

I think the snark is just part of the nature of such discussions. To a great extent though, the people here, regardless of ideology, are the kind of people you want on your side. Right or wrong, they at least care about what is going on.

Absolutely. I wasn't talking about the people here, with regards to the snark comment. It was meant more towards society as a whole.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

For one, I looked at the whole quote:

"I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It's fairly clear that he was not saying rape is a good thing or intended by God but rather that the life that resulted was intended. That coupled with what I do completely understand about orthodox Christian theology on the subject of evil and whether God can bring good out of it is where my response came from.

That said, "hidden joy" is not in the fact that your uncle got you pregnant. It's in the person that was created...a person who is not at fault and has done nothing wrong. Human life is sacred, precious and of infinite worth no matter how it came into being. That is most definitely a Christian concept.

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

And if they can't speak for Christ's intentions, you can speak for them. Even if he can't prove that God's plan works through incest, you can prove it doesn't?

No, which is why I tried to state my opinion as just that, opinion.

In this case, I simply misunderstood the meaning behind your question. My apologies. From reading the continued conversation, it's clear you were having a reasonable debate, and this wasn't just a snarky response, which is how I read it. Therefore, I apologize for my own response.

No problem. You have done nothing to apologize for. Part of the discussion is misunderstandings and explanations, even snarky ones. Most of the people here are good about dishing and receiving it even handedly.

Yeah, I'm noticing. It just seems that most of the time God gets discussed, snark is sure to follow.

Sad but true. However, I think it is an indication of passion rather than real anger. Lots of snark but there really are only a couple of people here who will be personally insulting and truly mean it. And for those couple of people, I don't believe they are bad, they just lose perspective by taking too much, too personally.

I think the snark is just part of the nature of such discussions. To a great extent though, the people here, regardless of ideology, are the kind of people you want on your side. Right or wrong, they at least care about what is going on.

Absolutely. I wasn't talking about the people here, with regards to the snark comment. It was meant more towards society as a whole.

I understand that. I think it is the stress from uncertainty.

[arnaldoabru 11]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

So you equate probably the 2nd most horrible act one person could do to another person(after murder) to some story from the Bible. If the Bible says so it must be o.k.

[arnaldoabru 11]

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand what I've said?

Incest was not God's intent. He did not will/decree/ordain that to happen. Human do terrible things to each other and that is a consequence of free will. However, in the midst of pain, suffering and evil, God can cause/will/ordain good to come out of it.

Tell that to the victums

[TitanTiger 20,471]

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand what I've said?

Incest was not God's intent. He did not will/decree/ordain that to happen. Human do terrible things to each other and that is a consequence of free will. However, in the midst of pain, suffering and evil, God can cause/will/ordain good to come out of it.

Tell that to the victums

Did anybody ask "what do the stupid people think?" Because I don't remember that happening and it's the only thing that could explain a rather interesting discussion being followed by your post.

[tylerj19 0]

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand what I've said?

Incest was not God's intent. He did not will/decree/ordain that to happen. Human do terrible things to each other and that is a consequence of free will. However, in the midst of pain, suffering and evil, God can cause/will/ordain good to come out of it.

Tell that to the victums

Seriously?? And, for the record, if I were talking to a victim, that's exactly what I would tell them. "Despite the horrid thing that happened to you, your life isn't over. Some good can come of this."

[MDM4AU 330]

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand what I've said?

Incest was not God's intent. He did not will/decree/ordain that to happen. Human do terrible things to each other and that is a consequence of free will. However, in the midst of pain, suffering and evil, God can cause/will/ordain good to come out of it.

Tell that to the victums

Did anybody ask "what do the stupid people think?" Because I don't remember that happening and it's the only thing that could explain a rather interesting discussion being followed by your post.

[Auburn85 432]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

Let's first ask the person who said they base their vote on more than one issue.

[augolf1716 21,096]

you sure say humm alot

[jw 4 au 526]

You and he may be able to speak to the intentions of one another. I don't believe either of you speak for the intentions of Christ. God's plans work through incest? That is God's intention?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand what I've said?

Incest was not God's intent. He did not will/decree/ordain that to happen. Human do terrible things to each other and that is a consequence of free will. However, in the midst of pain, suffering and evil, God can cause/will/ordain good to come out of it.

Tell that to the victums

Did anybody ask "what do the stupid people think?" Because I don't remember that happening and it's the only thing that could explain a rather interesting discussion being followed by your post.

Ouch!

I don't mean to compare rape to immigration in a general view, but wouldn't this be similar to blaming the child of illegal immigrants that had no choice to come to this country illiegally? I think we can all agree it is not the childs fault.

[leglessdan 1,934]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

You could very well be your uncle's baby, would you want to be dead? (Abortion) ponder that....

[icanthearyou 4,462]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

You could very well be your uncle's baby, would you want to be dead? (Abortion) ponder that....

You didn't take time to read the first four pages. As it turns out, I wasn't discussing abortion. I was discussing God working the miracle of creation through rape and incest and how I just don't believe it works that way. Ever.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

you sure say humm alot

Oh great. Golf is back. Isn't it enough that I have to suffer through a 1 and 5 season so far?

[TheBlueVue 177]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

When you read the comments, though they were ill advised and clumsily stated, he was simply expressing what is pretty normal Jewish and Christian understanding of God bringing out good things even in the midst of evil. The story of Joseph comes to mind where he was sold into slavery by his brothers but then rises to the highest level of authority under the Pharoah and is able to help his family during a time of extreme famine. "What you intended for evil, God turned to something good..."

Please explain how you know what he was trying to express. And please, explain the hidden joy in having your uncle's baby? Christian concept?

You could very well be your uncle's baby, would you want to be dead? (Abortion) ponder that....

You didn't take time to read the first four pages. As it turns out, I wasn't discussing abortion. I was discussing God working the miracle of creation through rape and incest and how I just don't believe it works that way. Ever.

I dont have a dog in this fight but it might be a good time for everyone to do lengthy introspection on exactly what a "belief' is. Within the context of passionate argument people continually base their arguments on what they believe. Is that a sound basis for an argument? Can a belief change? If so, what would be the impetus of that change? Beliefs are obviously important to all of us but they have no objective reality except that which we impart to them with the emotuon we build around them. When i was a very young child, I "believed" my father was god...as time went by and my father died I realized the error of my beliefs.

[cptau 169]

It's not a deal breaker...

"Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views. We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest but still support him"

http://www.cbsnews.c...ds-by-mourdock/

Seriously?

Question: If you disagreed with some ones views on rape and incest would you still support them? Hmmm.

You people fight so hard to kill babies. If only you guys could have used this energy to help the economy.

There is a lot of money in the business of providing abortions. That's part of the reason these groups fight so hard not to have any significant restrictions on it.

[augolf1716 21,096]

you sure say humm alot

Oh great. Golf is back. Isn't it enough that I have to suffer through a 1 and 5 season so far?

:-\

[Grumps 3,693]

I admire the position of Mourdock on the point that if you are going to say that abortion is murder, then it is CRAZY to say that murder is okay if the victim of the murder was conceived by a rape.

[Aufan59 51]

Every human is a product of incest, and god promoted rape in the bible.

Social conservatism is dying, and thank god for these idiots who are speeding up the death.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

Every human is a product of incest, and god promoted rape in the bible.

Social conservatism is dying, and thank god for these idiots who are speeding up the death.

Thank you for your consistency in providing value free content to the forums.

But actually, social conservatives have a higher birth rate than your clan does. We aren't going anywhere.