Jump to content

Is our athletic department "too religious"?


DyeHardAllTheWay

Recommended Posts

It sounds like some of the Johnny Come Lately Tiger Fans might need to do a little research on the history of Auburn University. It was founded as a Methodist School and has maintained a faith based tradition. A large number of high school athletes are members of FCA so I see any faith sharing as being a continuation of that.

I see no problems as long as no one is force fed anything. Athletes are young adults and can always exercise their option to not participate in such discussions. If its a major issue for an athlete, then maybe they belong elsewhere.

What if he is just a basically good kid who happens to be an independent-minded agnostic and can run a 4.25? :big:/>

Sounds like he would fit in better elsewhere. Auburn is traditionally conservative school and I see no reason to sell out to a kid that is an unproven commodity.

If we pick recruits - or turn recruits away - based on their religious beliefs, we have a serious problem. I hope (and expect) that is not the case, but I'd feel better with less religious "visibility" in the program.

Link to comment
Share on other sites





  • Replies 362
  • Created
  • Last Reply

It sounds like some of the Johnny Come Lately Tiger Fans might need to do a little research on the history of Auburn University. It was founded as a Methodist School and has maintained a faith based tradition. A large number of high school athletes are members of FCA so I see any faith sharing as being a continuation of that.

I see no problems as long as no one is force fed anything. Athletes are young adults and can always exercise their option to not participate in such discussions. If its a major issue for an athlete, then maybe they belong elsewhere.

What if he is just a basically good kid who hap pens to be an independent-minded agnostic and can run a 4.25? :big:

How tall and what position?

Well, it's nice to know your religious fervor does have it's limits. :-\ :hellyeah:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To anyone who says suck it up and deal with it, I simply say: "If you think it's tough being a Christian, try NOT being one."

I don't have a care as to what you believe, and if your faith helps you make positive decisions for yourself and makes you a great role model, then I say have at it. Your actions will speak loudly to those who are willing to listen.

But AU, while conservative, is a state school. Religion rightly should have no sway in anything other than personal feelings...and the minute you start dictating someone else's life by your personal feelings, they cease being personal. I guarantee that if CGM converted to Islam tomorrow, the same folks here who are all for it would magically be totally against it.

Exodus doesn't have a darn thing to do with form tackling, and while you may cry, Lamentations doesn't belong in the weight room.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To anyone who says suck it up and deal with it, I simply say: "If you think it's tough being a Christian, try NOT being one."

I don't have a care as to what you believe, and if your faith helps you make positive decisions for yourself and makes you a great role model, then I say have at it. Your actions will speak loudly to those who are willing to listen.

But AU, while conservative, is a state school. Religion rightly should have no sway in anything other than personal feelings...and the minute you start dictating someone else's life by your personal feelings, they cease being personal. I guarantee that if CGM converted to Islam tomorrow, the same folks here who are all for it would magically be totally against it.

Exodus doesn't have a darn thing to do with form tackling, and while you may cry, Lamentations doesn't belong in the weight room.

:bow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To anyone who says suck it up and deal with it, I simply say: "If you think it's tough being a Christian, try NOT being one."

I don't have a care as to what you believe, and if your faith helps you make positive decisions for yourself and makes you a great role model, then I say have at it. Your actions will speak loudly to those who are willing to listen.

But AU, while conservative, is a state school. Religion rightly should have no sway in anything other than personal feelings...and the minute you start dictating someone else's life by your personal feelings, they cease being personal. I guarantee that if CGM converted to Islam tomorrow, the same folks here who are all for it would magically be totally against it.

Exodus doesn't have a darn thing to do with form tackling, and while you may cry, Lamentations doesn't belong in the weight room.

Well said pal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To anyone who says suck it up and deal with it, I simply say: "If you think it's tough being a Christian, try NOT being one."

I don't have a care as to what you believe, and if your faith helps you make positive decisions for yourself and makes you a great role model, then I say have at it. Your actions will speak loudly to those who are willing to listen.

But AU, while conservative, is a state school. Religion rightly should have no sway in anything other than personal feelings...and the minute you start dictating someone else's life by your personal feelings, they cease being personal. I guarantee that if CGM converted to Islam tomorrow, the same folks here who are all for it would magically be totally against it.

Exodus doesn't have a darn thing to do with form tackling, and while you may cry, Lamentations doesn't belong in the weight room.

Whats your point? Gus is not going to convert to Islam and I seriously doubt anyone @ Auburn is dictating a damn thing about religion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It sounds like some of the Johnny Come Lately Tiger Fans might need to do a little research on the history of Auburn University. It was founded as a Methodist School and has maintained a faith based tradition. A large number of high school athletes are members of FCA so I see any faith sharing as being a continuation of that.

I see no problems as long as no one is force fed anything. Athletes are young adults and can always exercise their option to not participate in such discussions. If its a major issue for an athlete, then maybe they belong elsewhere.

What if he is just a basically good kid who happens to be an independent-minded agnostic and can run a 4.25? :big:/>

Sounds like he would fit in better elsewhere. Auburn is traditionally conservative school and I see no reason to sell out to a kid that is an unproven commodity.

If we pick recruits - or turn recruits away - based on their religious beliefs, we have a serious problem. I hope (and expect) that is not the case, but I'd feel better with less religious "visibility" in the program.

I agree with you 100%. I'm just saying that we shouldn't do a wholesale change of culture simply because 1 unproven recruit may not fit in. Like or not religion is part of the culture at Auburn, and it's a larger part than most people would like to admit, particluarly within the athletic programs. Although recruits should not be turned away based on their religious beliefs, I think that they do need to be aware that FCA is a popular organization at Auburn. If it's not for them, they are free to not participate. If it's a major problem for the kid, then he's probably lacking in maturity and likely isn't a good fit anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure, Auburn might have been founded as a Methodist school 1872, but a lot has changed since that time. The culture is constantly changing, and any university that is unwilling to adapt (notice I said adapt and not change) is foolish and antiquated. The question begging an answer is the Auburn staff forcing/using religion as a qualifier or metric for determining candidacy for employment or athlete? If so, then there is a major problem here that will add as another deterrent for quality staff/athletes, and another great news story for ESPN down the line. If it is just a prevailing attitude that is not a hindrance, then there is nothing to see here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

Exodus doesn't have a darn thing to do with form tackling, and while you may cry, Lamentations doesn't belong in the weight room.

Hmmm... Exodus that's Greek to me (sic)

Well the Hebrew is, we'elleh shemoth, or translated as "Now these are the names"... and the Greek as "exit, departure, or going out".

Which sort of sounds :-X like, going out ... taking names.... and kicking arse butt.

Regardless - I've always heard ===> :believe:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That depends on what your definition of dictating is, doesn't it?

Its pretty simple.....dictating is attempting to rule or control other people: to rule over or make decisions for others with absolute authority, or attempt to do so.I guarantee you this is NOT happening with specific reference to religion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should start by saying that it hurts me to read some of the posts I have read. I have watched over the years as we have allowed society to redefine what we see as "acceptable behavior" and with a short statement I know that I will not change anyone's mind. First, Religion and Christianity are not one and the same....being a Muslim is being religious. No, I do not believe a Christian has to label himself or pat himself on the back becasue his actions will define him and others will label him.

I personally want everyone to have a close personal relationship with Jesus as their Savior. Being a Christian does not mean someone is too soft or lacking an edge.....if you believe this you are 100% wrong. Many of the greatest athletes in this country are strong men and women of Christian faith. It is easy to start letting society shift the real focus in life from salvation to winning a football game. I love winning as well; but personally would rather lose every game than compromise principles. That said, one of the most beloved Auburn teams 2004 (for those unimformed) had an internal revival which brought the team together like few others before or since....... do some research and speak with some of those players including Cadillac. They will tell you the same thing.

We need more men to speak out about their faith and expect criticism.......but in the long run we win. We win much more than a few ballgames.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should start by saying that it hurts me to read some of the posts I have read. I have watched over the years as we have allowed society to redefine what we see as "acceptable behavior" and with a short statement I know that I will not change anyone's mind. First, Religion and Christianity are not one and the same....being a Muslim is being religious. No, I do not believe a Christian has to label himself or pat himself on the back becasue his actions will define him and others will label him.

I personally want everyone to have a close personal relationship with Jesus as their Savior. Being a Christian does not mean someone is too soft or lacking an edge.....if you believe this you are 100% wrong. Many of the greatest athletes in this country are strong men and women of Christian faith. It is easy to start letting society shift the real focus in life from salvation to winning a football game. I love winning as well; but personally would rather lose every game than compromise principles. That said, one of the most beloved Auburn teams 2004 (for those unimformed) had an internal revival which brought the team together like few others before or since....... do some research and speak with some of those players including Cadillac. They will tell you the same thing.

We need more men to speak out about their faith and expect criticism.......but in the long run we win. We win much more than a few ballgames.

Amen....like I said ealier I strongly believe not having God in our schools has greatly changed the way our society thinks and what is and isn't accepted. ...its a sad truth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should start by saying that it hurts me to read some of the posts I have read. I have watched over the years as we have allowed society to redefine what we see as "acceptable behavior" and with a short statement I know that I will not change anyone's mind. First, Religion and Christianity are not one and the same....being a Muslim is being religious. No, I do not believe a Christian has to label himself or pat himself on the back becasue his actions will define him and others will label him.

I personally want everyone to have a close personal relationship with Jesus as their Savior. Being a Christian does not mean someone is too soft or lacking an edge.....if you believe this you are 100% wrong. Many of the greatest athletes in this country are strong men and women of Christian faith. It is easy to start letting society shift the real focus in life from salvation to winning a football game. I love winning as well; but personally would rather lose every game than compromise principles. That said, one of the most beloved Auburn teams 2004 (for those unimformed) had an internal revival which brought the team together like few others before or since....... do some research and speak with some of those players including Cadillac. They will tell you the same thing.

We need more men to speak out about their faith and expect criticism.......but in the long run we win. We win much more than a few ballgames.

Amen....like I said ealier I strongly believe not having God in our schools has greatly changed the way our society thinks and what is and isn't accepted. ...its a sad truth

God is not in our schools?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That depends on what your definition of dictating is, doesn't it?

Its pretty simple.....dictating is attempting to rule or control other people: to rule over or make decisions for others with absolute authority, or attempt to do so.I guarantee you this is NOT happening with specific reference to religion

Well, how do you define what is and is not an attempt? The SCOTUS has repeatedly held that if an entity in charge appears to favor one religion, then there is an inevitable coercive effect of that action. In Engel v Vitale, SCOTUS held that it is unconstitutional for state officials (i.e., anyone paid by the state) to compose an official school prayer and encourage its recitation. The Court rejected that if a school has a prayer, the prayer is voluntary. The Court held that the mere promotion of a religion is sufficient to establish a violation, even if that promotion was not coercive.

Further, in Santa Fe IDS v Doe, It held that pre-game prayers at football games, "delivered "on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer" are not private, but public speech. "Regardless of the listener's support for, or objection to, the message, an objective Santa Fe High School student will unquestionably perceive the inevitable pregame prayer as stamped with her school's seal of approval."

Lee v Weisman, though specifically about whether it is constitutional for an outside religious figure (in this case, a Rabbi) to deliver a prayer or address at a graduation, and which was the precursor case to Santa Fe, Anthony Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion

"To say a teenage student has a real choice not to attend her high school graduation is formalistic in the extreme. True, Deborah could elect not to attend commencement without renouncing her diploma; but we shall not allow the case to turn on this point. Everyone knows that, in our society and in our culture, high school graduation is one of life's most significant occasions. A school rule which excuses attendance is beside the point. Attendance may not be required by official decree, yet it is apparent that a student is not free to absent herself from the graduation exercise in any real sense of the term "voluntary," for absence would require forfeiture of those intangible benefits which have motivated the student through youth and all her high school years. 505 U.S. 577, 595.

As we have observed before, there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools.
Our decisions in [Engel] and [Abington] recognize, among other things, that prayer exercises in public schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. The concern may not be limited to the context of schools, but it is most pronounced there. What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, in a school context may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy.
505 U.S. 577, 592 (citations omitted)"

Do I think that AU Athletics has an official prayer? No. I don't. Do I think this is a legal issue? No, not really at all. Do I think that CGM is benching players that aren't religious enough? No, that's ludicrous, he wants to win. I don't think it's a big problem at all, and I don't think that we're going to get to that point.

What I DO think is a problem, and that goes for anywhere church and state start to mix, is when people think that just because someone has a minority opinion on religion, somehow that opinion isn't as important as the majority, and that the minority should just sit down and shut up. That's abhorrent, it's un-American, and flies in the face of a century of jurisprudence by people who are a lot more informed about this subject than any of us are.

In 2003, I sued my county in north GA for an Establishment Clause violation in Federal court because of an unconstitutional display of the decalogue. In court, in front of judge William Kelly, the prosecuting attorney told me that I could have "come in the side door if I wanted."

Really. As if we didn't get rid of that principle when we decided that whites could play football and basketball with blacks.

So, I'm sorry if I come off as forceful about this, but I've woken up to broken windows, knives shoved in my porch posts, vandalism, being shunned by my professional peers and my friends, spit on, assaulted, driven off the side of the road, and had the sheriff himself tell me "you deal with it yourself"...all because I had the audacity to stand up and say "I'm not comfortable with this and I think it should stop."

How do you think one of those young men would feel, that instead of a faceless display in a courthouse, instead it was their coach, their mentor, the person in charge of whether or not they get playing time, or who has a large say on if they get to jump to the next level? If someone had an issue, would they feel comfortable with approaching their coach alone and saying how they felt? These are kids becoming men, and frankly, it would take some serious stones to stand up and be counted, not knowing what the consequence might be.

If ANY of these young men feel that they have to remain a silent minority in the face of the majority, then that is what I define as "dictating."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

......... First, Religion and Christianity are not one and the same....being a Muslim is being religious.

What's that supposed to imply?

Clearly, both Christianity and Islam are religions. There is no more justification for proselytizing one over the other in the workplace (or on a football team), at least by anyone in authority.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

- George Washington

Farewell Address 1796

"I believe in my country... and that I can best serve that country by 'doing justly, lovely mercy, and walking humbly with my God."

-George Petrie

The Auburn Creed 1945

So, I guess my answer is no.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The question that needs to be asked to some of these people is this - what if our coaches were shoving Islam down student athletes' throats? What if they were teaching and imposing the views of the Democratic Party on kids? Would you be as adamant about them speaking their mind? Didn't think so, and don't try to deny it. You'd be in an uproar. Just like not every kid going to Auburn will be a Muslim or a Democrat, not every kid going to Auburn is a Christian. We need to first of all, make sure that our coaches are being fair to those here currently, or potentially, that are not Christians, and also we simply need to demand our coaches do the job they were hired to do in the first place - win and develop players. Maybe one of the reasons we haven't been able to win as much the past few years is because we have had and now have coaches focused on doing other things at their job besides coaching. These coaches need to focus on their job, not imposing an agenda on impressionable kids. That can't be tolerated, regardless of what they're selling and it is very out of line and unprofessional.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should start by saying that it hurts me to read some of the posts I have read. I have watched over the years as we have allowed society to redefine what we see as "acceptable behavior" and with a short statement I know that I will not change anyone's mind. First, Religion and Christianity are not one and the same....being a Muslim is being religious. No, I do not believe a Christian has to label himself or pat himself on the back becasue his actions will define him and others will label him.

I personally want everyone to have a close personal relationship with Jesus as their Savior. Being a Christian does not mean someone is too soft or lacking an edge.....if you believe this you are 100% wrong. Many of the greatest athletes in this country are strong men and women of Christian faith. It is easy to start letting society shift the real focus in life from salvation to winning a football game. I love winning as well; but personally would rather lose every game than compromise principles. That said, one of the most beloved Auburn teams 2004 (for those unimformed) had an internal revival which brought the team together like few others before or since....... do some research and speak with some of those players including Cadillac. They will tell you the same thing.

We need more men to speak out about their faith and expect criticism.......but in the long run we win. We win much more than a few ballgames.

It is refreshing to have a voice of reason come in on this thread for you never know when someone with ears to hear will in fact hear.

When reading through some of the more repeated immature comments in this thread, it saddens me to think that we have these supposedly Auburn people living in the dark. It speaks of what is taking place throughout our nation. Some places far worse that we have here, but it is obvious from far too many comments here that we too at Auburn are infected. And professing themselves to be wise God gave them over to reprobate minds. May this not happen here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm serious about my Christian faith, but I don't believe "Christian" talk correlates much with good character. And in a state university, defining a program in those terms is way out of line. I could do with less cheesiness.

On the other hand, I also believe people should have a right to be open about their faith.

So here is the OP delimma, which you authored...

In your opinion, what is the "acceptable" level of a coach/AD walking out their faith? Where is the standard? Who decides?... Al.com, Obama, congress, a nation-wide vote,???...

... this is not a relative issue, but is based upon absolute none changing standards as set and defined in the Bible... not open to being defined by personable preference... not based on a societal evolutionary sliding scale of morality or conduct...

And we are all probably at least a little intimidated by what this truth requires of each of us individually...

And yes, there is a great need for true Christian influence in every area of the market place today.

Look, I know a bit about the Bible. I teach New Testament in a denominational seminary (full professor, six academic books, national and international leadership responsibilities) and serve a local church p/t to boot. Doesn't mean my opinions are correct, but I'm informed.

The Bible doesn't say a thing about how a football coach should handle his job, how to do public relations, or even about how Christians should manage public roles. No such set of "standards" exists. You may interpret the Bible to address those contexts, and people should, but let's not pretend there's a "how-to" for coaches in there.

I've taught in secular contexts too. Students knew I was a Christian, as being a Christian informs my opinions. They could come to me for vocational or spiritual guidance, and some did. However, I did not -- I could not, ethically -- use that job as a platform to promote my faith. I could demonstrate that a reasonable, gracious person could excel as a scholar and a teacher. I could serve religious communities when invited. But I could not use my position, the stuff the state of South Carolina was paying me to do, to evangelize. Absolutely not.

My concern with the athletic department involves whether there's a culture that marginalizes unbelieving players and whether there's a bit of a good ole boy network that influences coaching decisions. I also believe it's wrong to project the image of a "Christian" program in a state university. Finally, there's the "cheesiness." There's no reason to tell the world you fired a coach after praying with him about it. And mercy, the "Satan" FB message last year was some moldy cheese.

As open as I am about my faith, I don't do "Christian" bumper stickers and the like. You know why? Because I make driving errors like everyone else, and I don't want my error to look like selfishness -- and then have someone associate it with my faith.

As a point of clarification:

Everyone is religious & has a personal theology... atheists=no god... christians = God ... agnostics = who knows... cosmic humanists = everything is god... each of these is a theological position in life.

Whether we realize it or not, whatever theology one adheres to, it leads directly to our ethical/moral system of thought, the psychology approach we use, etc... all based on Genesis 1:1 and how one interprets it... again, either God/no god/who knows/ everything god created creation...

and our culture is full of the failures of taking God out of the equation...

As a result, I am much more comfortable with a man coaching a team who instills the christian ethical system of honesty & integrity, personal sacrifice for a cause greater than selfish desires, putting the team ahead of self, accepting personal responsibity for actions (both good & bad), exercising personal discipline, etc.,

As an example, I am on the school board of a local high school which just won the state football championship in 2012. The coach is a man of strong christian integrity who held everyone to a high standard on the staff and on the team, including no cursing in practices and games. Yes, there was prayer and there was discipline as well. He also coached my son a few years ago and instilled character that supplimented what his mother and I had taught. This same coach has coached 2 national championship basketball teams @ our school over the years as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should start by saying that it hurts me to read some of the posts I have read. I have watched over the years as we have allowed society to redefine what we see as "acceptable behavior" and with a short statement I know that I will not change anyone's mind. First, Religion and Christianity are not one and the same....being a Muslim is being religious. No, I do not believe a Christian has to label himself or pat himself on the back becasue his actions will define him and others will label him.

I personally want everyone to have a close personal relationship with Jesus as their Savior. Being a Christian does not mean someone is too soft or lacking an edge.....if you believe this you are 100% wrong. Many of the greatest athletes in this country are strong men and women of Christian faith. It is easy to start letting society shift the real focus in life from salvation to winning a football game. I love winning as well; but personally would rather lose every game than compromise principles. That said, one of the most beloved Auburn teams 2004 (for those unimformed) had an internal revival which brought the team together like few others before or since....... do some research and speak with some of those players including Cadillac. They will tell you the same thing.

We need more men to speak out about their faith and expect criticism.......but in the long run we win. We win much more than a few ballgames.

It is refreshing to have a voice of reason come in on this thread for you never know when someone with ears to hear will in fact hear.

When reading through some of the more repeated immature comments in this thread, it saddens me to think that we have these supposedly Auburn people living in the dark. It speaks of what is taking place throughout our nation. Some places far worse that we have here, but it is obvious from far too many comments here that we too at Auburn are infected. And professing themselves to be wise God gave them over to reprobate minds. May this not happen here.

"Infected"? By what, exactly?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure, Auburn might have been founded as a Methodist school 1872, but a lot has changed since that time. The culture is constantly changing, and any university that is unwilling to adapt (notice I said adapt and not change) is foolish and antiquated. The question begging an answer is the Auburn staff forcing/using religion as a qualifier or metric for determining candidacy for employment or athlete? If so, then there is a major problem here that will add as another deterrent for quality staff/athletes, and another great news story for ESPN down the line. If it is just a prevailing attitude that is not a hindrance, then there is nothing to see here.

Actually Auburn was founded to prepare preachers to minister the gospel = the very foundation AU is built upon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And now it's a land-grant state college. Back then, it was a private liberal-arts school. At the time they were still teaching blood-letting as proper medical treatment and women weren't allowed in.

Things change, and frankly, things get better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...