Voter ID Issue

[homersapien 11,354]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Same theory?

What is the theory that equates food stamps with voting?

[AU_Tiger_88 417]

Still haven't seen any evidence of widespread fraud. Another imaginary problem for the deluded to get all worked up over.

Fraud is committed in the absentee ballot..easy to get and you can vote for the elderly & infirmed that haven't been taken off of the roles yet. See it here in Florida every election. usually small stories locally. Not big press and they usually discount it. Also no one is really looking into voter fraud on a state or national level. They are afraid of what they would find. But you do have folks registering say at their university and home. Thus 2 votes same person. That is fraud but it happens. Easier way of taking care of it but they don't really care enough.

[Ouchyfish 67]

1. There is little indication that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

2. It will depress voter participation of poorer people. (Just like the laws restricting early voting and Sunday voting.)

Next Question.

How would it depress voter participation of poor people??? You wouldn't be asked for blood, for goodness sakes, just for an ID that everybody should have anyway. Please explain this.

You all seem to be overlooking the fact that to vote, you first have to register first and be on the voting list in your polling place. I don't see a problem here that needs to be addressed.

I was able to register in one state with just a signature and telling the girl my name and address. However you did make me realize something. My beef with the voting right now is that someone can come in and claim to be a person that hasn't voted and then get another vote. In order for this to be done on a large enough scale to make an impact you would need some inside help. If you have inside help...what good would an ID be in stopping it?

[homersapien 11,354]

Geez, I couldn't decide where best to post this, here, or the "GOP is failing America" thread. This one is more active for the moment, so:

Colin Powell: Voter ID Laws Will 'Backfire' For Republicans

http://www.huffingto...hp_ref=politics

[BamaGrad03 146]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Making poor people have an ID to get food stamps doesn't hurt them. Making them have the same ID to vote does. That makes no sense.

And WHY ON EARTH would you have any reason NOT to show identification? The ONLY reason I could see you not wanting to show ID is if you were up to no good. Aren't we to assume all these people who are getting food stamps are the same people you're trying to protect from having to show their ID?

Food stamps are not comparable to a citizen's right to vote. One is a benefit of citizenship, one is a right of citizenship.

Property ownership is a right of citizenship. Do we require identification for that?

[Weegle777 78]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Same theory? :dunno:/>

What is the theory that equates food stamps with voting?

And so the circular diversionary splicing of words begins. Answer what he asked, instead of asking for the definition of "the".

[homersapien 11,354]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Same theory? :dunno:/>

What is the theory that equates food stamps with voting?

And so the circular diversionary splicing of words begins. Answer what he asked, instead of asking for the definition of "the".

I don't know who pissed in your cheerios this morning, but I have every right to clarify what in hell he is talking about before trying to answer it.

Maybe that's your problem. You frequently provide answers to questions you don't understand.

[Weegle777 78]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Same theory? :dunno:/>

What is the theory that equates food stamps with voting?

And so the circular diversionary splicing of words begins. Answer what he asked, instead of asking for the definition of "the".

I don't know who pissed in your cheerios this morning, but I have every right to clarify what in hell he is talking about before trying to answer it.

Maybe that's your problem. You frequently provide answers to questions you don't understand.

Everybody here can see what you are doing. His question had zero to do with "what theory are you talking about?" and you know it. He asked you a simple question, answer it.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Same theory? :dunno:/>

What is the theory that equates food stamps with voting?

And so the circular diversionary splicing of words begins. Answer what he asked, instead of asking for the definition of "the".

I don't know who pissed in your cheerios this morning, but I have every right to clarify what in hell he is talking about before trying to answer it.

Maybe that's your problem. You frequently provide answers to questions you don't understand.

Everybody here can see what you are doing. His question had zero to do with "what theory are you talking about?" and you know it. He asked you a simple question, answer it.

Everybody?

[AUDub 11,131]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Making poor people have an ID to get food stamps doesn't hurt them. Making them have the same ID to vote does. That makes no sense.

And WHY ON EARTH would you have any reason NOT to show identification? The ONLY reason I could see you not wanting to show ID is if you were up to no good. Aren't we to assume all these people who are getting food stamps are the same people you're trying to protect from having to show their ID?

Food stamps are not comparable to a citizen's right to vote. One is a benefit of citizenship, one is a right of citizenship.

Property ownership is a right of citizenship. Do we require identification for that?

Not necessarily. Case in point, my grandmother (funeral was Tuesday :'-|) never had any government ID besides a birth certificate and a social security card. She was a property owner willed from my late grandfather. I realize that's anecdotal and I'll back it up with some hard docs as soon as I have the time. I'll concede you have very little chance of purchasing any without a state issued ID in this day and age.

[homersapien 11,354]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Same theory? :dunno:/>

What is the theory that equates food stamps with voting?

And so the circular diversionary splicing of words begins. Answer what he asked, instead of asking for the definition of "the".

I don't know who pissed in your cheerios this morning, but I have every right to clarify what in hell he is talking about before trying to answer it.

Maybe that's your problem. You frequently provide answers to questions you don't understand.

Everybody here can see what you are doing. His question had zero to do with "what theory are you talking about?" and you know it. He asked you a simple question, answer it.

His question was: But the same theory applies does it not?

And why don't you just keep quiet and let Bama clarify his own post? Are you trying to work as a team or something? You won't be much help to him until you learn how to read.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

It's just common sense to require someone to prove they are who they say they are with a photo ID to vote. Yes, it's a right. That doesn't mean we can't require valid ID that anyone would require for something as simple as writing a check.

There are ways to minimize the hiccups for people who don't have one...give plenty of lead time for getting one before the law goes into effect. If anyone is shutting down or shortening hours at the DMV, that's bull****. Have a least a few locations open after hours or one weekend, particularly in the months leading up to an election. If someone can demonstrate they cannot afford a photo ID, then make provisions to subsidize it. This is not a herculean task.

The only reason that someone could possibly have to oppose it if similar provisions are made is that they are up to no good. Period.

[Ouchyfish 67]

I agree, Titan, but here's my hangup: In order for a major election to be affected by voter fraud you would have to have the staff involved. Would requiring IDs stop them from hooking people up with extra voting chances? Unless we're talking about Dade county in 2000, a few hundred votes here and there wouldn't affect a major election.

[homersapien 11,354]

It's just common sense to require someone to prove they are who they say they are with a photo ID to vote. Yes, it's a right. That doesn't mean we can't require valid ID that anyone would require for something as simple as writing a check.

There are ways to minimize the hiccups for people who don't have one...give plenty of lead time for getting one before the law goes into effect. If anyone is shutting down or shortening hours at the DMV, that's bull****. Have a least a few locations open after hours or one weekend, particularly in the months leading up to an election. If someone can demonstrate they cannot afford a photo ID, then make provisions to subsidize it. This is not a herculean task.

The only reason that someone could possibly have to oppose it if similar provisions are made is that they are up to no good. Period.

First, I understand that the North Carolina law also reduced early voting opportunities and eliminated Sunday voting altogether.

Secondly, in the absence of a problem that needs to be solved, one can oppose it in good faith if it simply serves to disenfranchise voters.

https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression-infographic

1/10 of white voters do not have a photo ID whereas 1/4 of black voters don't have one.

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/08/22/opinion/doc5216d2fab7d2c941248582.txt

It’s plain that vote engineering is the real motive behind voter ID campaigns. In Pennsylvania at least, the people most likely to lack an approved ID card are the elderly, the poor, minorities and those who live in cities — all solid Democratic constituencies that tend to occupy urban concentrations east and west.....

But the most loathsome aspect of suppressive voter ID efforts is the way they undermine a core right of American citizenship. The fact is simply this: If you’re an American citizen without a felony conviction, you have an unfettered right to vote, GOP-approved identification or not.

The disengenuous excuse for saying otherwise is that voter impersonation fraud at the polls — notice we said impersonation, not registration — demands that voters prove their identity with a piece of plastic. But voter impersonation fraud is such a non-issue that the state declined to make it a factor in this summer’s trial.

Other sites of interest:

http://www.democracy-nc.org/downloads/VoterIDFlyer1-18-11.pdf

http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/09/10/research-backs-up-voter-suppression-claims-but/189823

[Ouchyfish 67]

So should we do away with requiring ID for anything because it must be racially motivated? I'm not talking about rights vs. privileges here. I'm referring to your argument being that because they refuse to get ID for whatever reason, we should make special allowances for them.

I worked in a retail establishment that required IDs for certain transactions. The black customers more often than not were without IDs but they had plenty of cash. (A black employee told me that it was so if they were caught by police they could pretend to not be who they really were--not sure if that's true but that's what he said.)

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Question for everyone. Is this motivated purely by politics or is there/has there been a real problem with voter fraud? Is this a practical solution to a real problem or is this a solution looking for a problem? Should we remove the volunteers who typically run the polling stations and put U.S. Marshalls in their place or should we wait for the problem to get worse? I doubt people so devious as to undermine the democratic process by committing voter fraud are going to be stopped so easily. Honestly, this sounds like partisan bickering over a very minor tactical advantage and frankly I don't care about either party. I am much more interested in the country.

[homersapien 11,354]

So should we do away with requiring ID for anything because it must be racially motivated? I'm not talking about rights vs. privileges here. I'm referring to your argument being that because they refuse to get ID for whatever reason, we should make special allowances for them.

I worked in a retail establishment that required IDs for certain transactions. The black customers more often than not were without IDs but they had plenty of cash. (A black employee told me that it was so if they were caught by police they could pretend to not be who they really were--not sure if that's true but that's what he said.)

Well, I am talking about voting. Voting requires registration to get on to the eligible voter list at your assigned voting place.

Not really sure where you are coming from, but I don't think there's really a connection. (Ironic that you link photo IDs with race though.)

[homersapien 11,354]

Question for everyone. Is this motivated purely by politics or is there/has there been a real problem with voter fraud? Is this a practical solution to a real problem or is this a solution looking for a problem? Should we remove the volunteers who typically run the polling stations and put U.S. Marshalls in their place or should we wait for the problem to get worse? I doubt people so devious as to undermine the democratic process by committing voter fraud are going to be stopped so easily. Honestly, this sounds like partisan bickering over a very minor tactical advantage and frankly I don't care about either party. I am much more interested in the country.

I think this became of interest due to the 2000 race in Florida that was (supposedly) settled by a little over 500 votes.

But to answer your question directly, no, there is not a problem.

[Ouchyfish 67]

So should we do away with requiring ID for anything because it must be racially motivated? I'm not talking about rights vs. privileges here. I'm referring to your argument being that because they refuse to get ID for whatever reason, we should make special allowances for them.

I worked in a retail establishment that required IDs for certain transactions. The black customers more often than not were without IDs but they had plenty of cash. (A black employee told me that it was so if they were caught by police they could pretend to not be who they really were--not sure if that's true but that's what he said.)

(Ironic that you link photo IDs with race though.)

Not sure what you're getting at but since it's you I'll go ahead and chalk it up to trolling. -YOU- brought up black voters.

Voting registration is a joke, dude. I walked into the courthouse, told the lady my name and address and signed a paper and was registered. No ID, nothing. Stop making registration sound like some FBI investigation.

.

[Weegle777 78]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Same theory? :dunno:/>

What is the theory that equates food stamps with voting?

And so the circular diversionary splicing of words begins. Answer what he asked, instead of asking for the definition of "the".

I don't know who pissed in your cheerios this morning, but I have every right to clarify what in hell he is talking about before trying to answer it.

Maybe that's your problem. You frequently provide answers to questions you don't understand.

Everybody here can see what you are doing. His question had zero to do with "what theory are you talking about?" and you know it. He asked you a simple question, answer it.

His question was: But the same theory applies does it not?

And why don't you just keep quiet and let Bama clarify his own post? Are you trying to work as a team or something? You won't be much help to him until you learn how to read.

You really are pretty dense aren't you. You know exactly what he was asking. Answer his question, that is, if you are capable

[homersapien 11,354]

So should we do away with requiring ID for anything because it must be racially motivated? I'm not talking about rights vs. privileges here. I'm referring to your argument being that because they refuse to get ID for whatever reason, we should make special allowances for them.

I worked in a retail establishment that required IDs for certain transactions. The black customers more often than not were without IDs but they had plenty of cash. (A black employee told me that it was so if they were caught by police they could pretend to not be who they really were--not sure if that's true but that's what he said.)

(Ironic that you link photo IDs with race though.)

Not sure what you're getting at but since it's you I'll go ahead and chalk it up to trolling. -YOU- brought up black voters.

Voting registration is a joke, dude. I walked into the courthouse, told the lady my name and address and signed a paper and was registered. No ID, nothing. Stop making registration sound like some FBI investigation.

.

Sorry, I read it as a continuous statement. Since I am such a sticker for such detail, I'll give you credit for the paragraph break.

And the point about the registration is that is a key distinction between having to provide an ID to vote and to cash a check (for example)

And I am still waiting on someone to reveal what a problem this is that we have to go through the red tape and expense to stop it. I though you guys were for a more streamlined government.

[homersapien 11,354]

But this discussion is about the right to vote, not applying for a government service.

But the same theory applies does it not?

- Poor people vote

- Poor people get food stamps

Same theory? :dunno:/>

What is the theory that equates food stamps with voting?

And so the circular diversionary splicing of words begins. Answer what he asked, instead of asking for the definition of "the".

I don't know who pissed in your cheerios this morning, but I have every right to clarify what in hell he is talking about before trying to answer it.

Maybe that's your problem. You frequently provide answers to questions you don't understand.

Everybody here can see what you are doing. His question had zero to do with "what theory are you talking about?" and you know it. He asked you a simple question, answer it.

His question was: But the same theory applies does it not?

And why don't you just keep quiet and let Bama clarify his own post? Are you trying to work as a team or something? You won't be much help to him until you learn how to read.

You really are pretty dense aren't you. You know exactly what he was asking. Answer his question, that is, if you are capable

I guess so.

Maybe you can help me out and explain his question in words I might be able to better understand.

Plus, tell me again what it is that a "troll" does?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Question for everyone. Is this motivated purely by politics or is there/has there been a real problem with voter fraud? Is this a practical solution to a real problem or is this a solution looking for a problem? Should we remove the volunteers who typically run the polling stations and put U.S. Marshalls in their place or should we wait for the problem to get worse? I doubt people so devious as to undermine the democratic process by committing voter fraud are going to be stopped so easily. Honestly, this sounds like partisan bickering over a very minor tactical advantage and frankly I don't care about either party. I am much more interested in the country.

I think this became of interest due to the 2000 race in Florida that was (supposedly) settled by a little over 500 votes.

But to answer your question directly, no, there is not a problem.

Is this truly the only example? Was there even any documented voter fraud in Florida in 2000? Was there even an accusation? All I remember is hanging chads and votes that were nullified because of multiple selections for the same office.

[Ouchyfish 67]

Probably more to fear from the computers tabulating if you want to break it down.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

It's just common sense to require someone to prove they are who they say they are with a photo ID to vote. Yes, it's a right. That doesn't mean we can't require valid ID that anyone would require for something as simple as writing a check.

There are ways to minimize the hiccups for people who don't have one...give plenty of lead time for getting one before the law goes into effect. If anyone is shutting down or shortening hours at the DMV, that's bull****. Have a least a few locations open after hours or one weekend, particularly in the months leading up to an election. If someone can demonstrate they cannot afford a photo ID, then make provisions to subsidize it. This is not a herculean task.

The only reason that someone could possibly have to oppose it if similar provisions are made is that they are up to no good. Period.

First, I understand that the North Carolina law also reduced early voting opportunities and eliminated Sunday voting altogether.

Secondly, in the absence of a problem that needs to be solved, one can oppose it in good faith if it simply serves to disenfranchise voters.

https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression-infographic

1/10 of white voters do not have a photo ID whereas 1/4 of black voters don't have one.

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/08/22/opinion/doc5216d2fab7d2c941248582.txt

It’s plain that vote engineering is the real motive behind voter ID campaigns. In Pennsylvania at least, the people most likely to lack an approved ID card are the elderly, the poor, minorities and those who live in cities — all solid Democratic constituencies that tend to occupy urban concentrations east and west.....

But the most loathsome aspect of suppressive voter ID efforts is the way they undermine a core right of American citizenship. The fact is simply this: If you’re an American citizen without a felony conviction, you have an unfettered right to vote, GOP-approved identification or not.

The disengenuous excuse for saying otherwise is that voter impersonation fraud at the polls — notice we said impersonation, not registration — demands that voters prove their identity with a piece of plastic. But voter impersonation fraud is such a non-issue that the state declined to make it a factor in this summer’s trial.

Other sites of interest:

http://www.democracy-nc.org/downloads/VoterIDFlyer1-18-11.pdf

http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/09/10/research-backs-up-voter-suppression-claims-but/189823

If the provisions I mention are put into place, how does it disenfranchise anyone except those up to no good and the lazy? If such minimal adjustments to ensure people are who they say they are can't be done, why bother with any ID at all?