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Proud Tiger

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I addressed my comments to :homer: because his thought's were real, not like the quote of fiction AURaptor made. If fiction is your focus, then so be it.

No. You're just being a hypocrite. Homer's a more acceptable target in your mind. Have fun justifying it with your silly sophistry of "Fiction" vs. "Real" :Sing:

See, you make the same mistake as :homer: by making REL's support of The War Between the States simplistic. The tyranny of the federal government was REL's greatest concern and it's attack against his HOME, not some far-away place. This was a war to protect his state, his family, friends, SLAVES, and his values.

I have no doubt he agonized over the decision, but he chose wrong. He betrayed our country. Justify it in whatever way makes you feel better.

Should you be looking to attack those of hypocrisy (as you imply toward REL), then you should look at Grant and Lincoln. Grant, et al, had slaves, and he had the same opinions as REL re: blacks, and Lincoln even wanted to put blacks on ships to return to Africa. You make this issue very simplistic. REL did NOT support slavery. His desire was to end it, but not through war.

Irrelevant. I'm not discussing the Union's very likely prejudiced views of African-Americans. The south seceded and attempted to found their own country because of a perceived threat to slavery. They were traitors and General Lee fought for them.

Texas Tiger.....you wouldn't like my opinion of you right now. Anybody who calls Lee a traitor is 100% a-hole IMHO. And thanks for respecting my request to move on and keep politics out of this thread..........just couldn't do it could you.

This is a politics forum. It was doomed from the start. How did you not see this coming?

You choose to rationalize rather than respect.

What does this even mean? Why should he be worthy of Tex's respect?

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REL was an honorable man, a true leader, one who was truly admired by his soldiers (both northern and southern), and his countrymen. He lived with the purpose of making the United States a better place, and when the time came to defend his home from that same government he did so. He was thrust into choosing sides when war was forced upon him. He would have rather reconciled America peacefully.

For those who care to know more about this "complex" man, you should read his letters and prayers. Your prejudices about this hero will change.

Long live the name and honor of General Robert E. Lee.

Your prejudices are firmly in place.

You are an absolute IDIOT.

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Elephant Tipper immediately adds this absurd distinction between Democrats and Republicans as if it had any bearing on current politics.

Earth to TT, every day the Dems accuse the Republicans of being racist, as you have just done of me. I was trying to sway this thread back to the topic of Robert E. Lee but you, as the MODERATOR, I add, decided to drag it back into :homer: 's impertinent dialogue.

How about staying on the topic TT.

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Texas Tiger....you're being patient with me? If you think you can threaten me because I defend a hero of mine then go ahead and pull your trigger. I have been here a long time but this board is way down the list of important things to me in comparison to my opinion of REL. It's sad that you choose call him a traitor since you will never have my respect again, That's all I'm going to say.

I'm not sure why you see a threat in me saying I'm being patient with you, but the fact that you do tends to illustrate how much patience you sometimes require. Respect whom you wish. If stating facts causes you to lose respect, so be it. Some find facts threatening.

If you think I'm threatening to "moderate" you, try to remember when I have ever done so.

The patience I'm referencing is personal. If others had whined about someone injecting politics into their political thread I could easily be less kind. I respect your age and experience, if not always your opinion.

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REL was an honorable man, a true leader, one who was truly admired by his soldiers (both northern and southern), and his countrymen. He lived with the purpose of making the United States a better place, and when the time came to defend his home from that same government he did so. He was thrust into choosing sides when war was forced upon him. He would have rather reconciled America peacefully.

For those who care to know more about this "complex" man, you should read his letters and prayers. Your prejudices about this hero will change.

Long live the name and honor of General Robert E. Lee.

Your prejudices are firmly in place.

You are an absolute IDIOT.

I think you took that the wrong way. Tex was likely speaking of your preconceived notions, not calling you a racist.

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Bigben.....it's humorous that you have to tell someone that he took it the wrong way when you refused to accept my explanation for beginning the thread.

There is no refusal. I understand your explanation for starting the thread. I'm simply not at all surprised by the result.

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I guess I was just naïve in believing that fellow Auburn family members couldn't respect another's exp<b></b>ression without things getting nasty.

Why did you post in the POLITICAL forum if you didn't want it to be political?

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A couple of points.

1. Anyone who has seriously studied the situation at the beginning of the Civil War KNOWS the issue in the beginning was State's Rights.. My wife grew up in

California and even they were taught that.But believe what you want. You can make long, yada yada posts until hell freezes over and you won't change my mind about the war or my admiration of Robert E. Lee.I have spent too much time over the years doing indepth study to not stand my ground.

2. Having said that, as ET said above, I started this thread simply noting that today was Lee's birthday ad that he is one of y historical heroes. I didn't bring politics into it until a couple of other posters did. If you want to do that start your own damn thread.

Great point. I love history myself and share you interest in and admiration of the life of REL. Interestingly enough, he could have been the General of the Union Army but chose not to be.

He chose wrong and became a traitor in the process. One can't be an American hero and turn his back on his country. There is a ton of denial and very perverted logic being employed by anyone calling him an American hero.

You're nuts

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A couple of points.

1. Anyone who has seriously studied the situation at the beginning of the Civil War KNOWS the issue in the beginning was State's Rights.. My wife grew up in

California and even they were taught that.But believe what you want. You can make long, yada yada posts until hell freezes over and you won't change my mind about the war or my admiration of Robert E. Lee.I have spent too much time over the years doing indepth study to not stand my ground.

2. Having said that, as ET said above, I started this thread simply noting that today was Lee's birthday ad that he is one of y historical heroes. I didn't bring politics into it until a couple of other posters did. If you want to do that start your own damn thread.

Great point. I love history myself and share you interest in and admiration of the life of REL. Interestingly enough, he could have been the General of the Union Army but chose not to be.

He chose wrong and became a traitor in the process. One can't be an American hero and turn his back on his country. There is a ton of denial and very perverted logic being employed by anyone calling him an American hero.

You're nuts

You find reality maddening-- what does that make you?

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TT....I guess you are just too dense or just don't want to accept my explanation. What else would you like me to do your worship?

I want you to post in the football forum and act indignant when others talk about football.

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A couple of points.

1. Anyone who has seriously studied the situation at the beginning of the Civil War KNOWS the issue in the beginning was State's Rights.. My wife grew up in

California and even they were taught that.But believe what you want. You can make long, yada yada posts until hell freezes over and you won't change my mind about the war or my admiration of Robert E. Lee.I have spent too much time over the years doing indepth study to not stand my ground.

2. Having said that, as ET said above, I started this thread simply noting that today was Lee's birthday ad that he is one of y historical heroes. I didn't bring politics into it until a couple of other posters did. If you want to do that start your own damn thread.

Great point. I love history myself and share you interest in and admiration of the life of REL. Interestingly enough, he could have been the General of the Union Army but chose not to be.

He chose wrong and became a traitor in the process. One can't be an American hero and turn his back on his country. There is a ton of denial and very perverted logic being employed by anyone calling him an American hero.

You're nuts

You find reality maddening-- what does that make you?

Nope but I do find your perspective simply one of an obedient, dutiful child of socialism in every post you enter...thats all, not maddening, simply expected.

Edited by TheBlueVue

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I may disagree with other posters about football but I don't insult them.

As a general rule, liberals identify with the paternalism their party exists on. As a result, arrogance and condescension are their most outwardly noticeable characteristics.

Edited by TheBlueVue

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A couple of points.

1. Anyone who has seriously studied the situation at the beginning of the Civil War KNOWS the issue in the beginning was State's Rights.. My wife grew up in

California and even they were taught that.But believe what you want. You can make long, yada yada posts until hell freezes over and you won't change my mind about the war or my admiration of Robert E. Lee.I have spent too much time over the years doing indepth study to not stand my ground.

2. Having said that, as ET said above, I started this thread simply noting that today was Lee's birthday ad that he is one of y historical heroes. I didn't bring politics into it until a couple of other posters did. If you want to do that start your own damn thread.

Great point. I love history myself and share you interest in and admiration of the life of REL. Interestingly enough, he could have been the General of the Union Army but chose not to be.

He chose wrong and became a traitor in the process. One can't be an American hero and turn his back on his country. There is a ton of denial and very perverted logic being employed by anyone calling him an American hero.

You're nuts

You find reality maddening-- what does that make you?

Nope but I do find your perspective simply one of an obedient, dutiful child of socialism in every post you enter...thats all, not maddening, simply expected.

Cry, "socialist!" when frustrated. Whether it makes sense or not. That's nuts.

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I guess I was just naïve in believing that fellow Auburn family members couldn't respect another's expression without things getting nasty.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I apologize if my honest criticism of one of your heroes bothers you, but I don't plan on stopping as long as others are willing to discuss it. It's a forum, after all.

As a general rule, liberals identify with the paternalism their party exists on. As a result, arrogance and condescension are their most outwardly noticeable characteristics.

Part of me wonders what goes on between your ears. What a silly assertion.

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A couple of points.

1. Anyone who has seriously studied the situation at the beginning of the Civil War KNOWS the issue in the beginning was State's Rights.. My wife grew up in

California and even they were taught that.But believe what you want. You can make long, yada yada posts until hell freezes over and you won't change my mind about the war or my admiration of Robert E. Lee.I have spent too much time over the years doing indepth study to not stand my ground.

2. Having said that, as ET said above, I started this thread simply noting that today was Lee's birthday ad that he is one of y historical heroes. I didn't bring politics into it until a couple of other posters did. If you want to do that start your own damn thread.

Great point. I love history myself and share you interest in and admiration of the life of REL. Interestingly enough, he could have been the General of the Union Army but chose not to be.

He chose wrong and became a traitor in the process. One can't be an American hero and turn his back on his country. There is a ton of denial and very perverted logic being employed by anyone calling him an American hero.

You're nuts

You find reality maddening-- what does that make you?

Nope but I do find your perspective simply one of an obedient, dutiful child of socialism in every post you enter...thats all, not maddening, simply expected.

Cry, "socialist!" when frustrated. Whether it makes sense or not. That's nuts.

LOL problem with that is, Ive read enough of your posts to know of what I speak. It is what it is ole buddy! Why deny it?

Edited by TheBlueVue

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I guess I was just naïve in believing that fellow Auburn family members couldn't respect another's expression without things getting nasty.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I apologize if my honest criticism of one of your heroes bothers you, but I don't plan on stopping as long as others are willing to discuss it. It's a forum, after all.

As a general rule, liberals identify with the paternalism their party exists on. As a result, arrogance and condescension are their most outwardly noticeable characteristics.

Part of me wonders what goes on between your ears. What a silly assertion.

If you think its silly, no problem, you don't see it.

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If you think its silly, no problem, you don't see it.

There you go setting off the "baloney detector" again. Have you ever noticed how often you argue by assertion?

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No names, just facts: An officer resigns his commission in the United States Army and leads an armed insurrection against the United States of America. American hero or traitor?

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If you think its silly, no problem, you don't see it.

There you go setting off the "baloney detector" again. Have you ever noticed how often you argue by assertion?

Im not arguing anything. I simply posted an opinion, the result of many years of observation. It seems to me you have a problem with that opinion. I am entitled to having an opinion, am I not?

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Homer, you, with prejudice, segued from a thread about REL and surreptitiously implanted another as to defame a legitimate American hero. Shame on your ignorance. REL NEVER supported or justified slavery, PERIOD ! (and "PERIOD" is what it actual means in my use of the word, not as Obama's use)

You falsely accuse REL of supporting slavery.

Here we go. Nobody pays any attention anymore. What is it - video games? social media? :dunno:

I did not "accuse" REL of "supporting slavery". I said the reason Virginia seceded was because of slavery.

In fact, I said that one can imply the reasons for Lee deciding to side with the Confederacy, based on his own writings. That apparently is what you are doing.

Do you now see the difference between what you deduced and what I wrote? If so, please acknowledge your error and we can continue the discussion.

But if you think I actually did accuse Lee of being a "supporter of slavery", please explain why.

Edited by homersapien

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Homer, you, with prejudice, segued from a thread about REL and surreptitiously implanted another as to defame a legitimate American hero. Shame on your ignorance.

I didn't seague s***. I was responding to Raptor's implication that the South was actually the "right" side in the Civil War, which is ridiculous.

So if you have a complaint about changing the subject from REL to the righteousness of the Southern cause, blame him.

And shame on your lack of attention.

Edited by homersapien

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No names, just facts: An officer resigns his commission in the United States Army and leads an armed insurrection against the United States of America. American hero or traitor?

Insurrection? Evidently, your awareness of history is a bit muddled. Lee was a native Virginian and refused to fight against his home state, family and friends. At the time he matriculated at West Point, secession was taught as a right of the states as a counter-balance against a national government becoming too powerful. Thomas Jefferson believed in states' right to secession and even Abraham Lincoln, himself, argued for states rights to secede on the floor of Congress in 1848.

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable and most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so many of the territory as they inhabit."

Lee was no traitor, just a loyal son of the Commonwealth of Virginia

Edited by TheBlueVue

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REL's cause for war was States Rights as ProudTiger mentions, NOT SLAVERY.

Robert E. Lee apparently valued the state of Virginia higher than he did the United States as a whole. I am not a scholar of Lee so I cannot expound on why he felt this way or how he rationalized the institution of slavery in Virginia. I am sure he understood the role of slavery in the secessionist movement. If he didn't, he was an idiot, and I certainly don't think that is true.

But like I said, you can argue Lee's personal motivations, but the reason Virginia seceded was to preserve slavery.

However you square that with your opinion of Lee, Robert E. Lee's personal beliefs and decisions regarding why he joined his state in the Confederacy do not define the fundamental reason for the war, which was the desire of the Confederate states to preserve (and expand) the institution of slavery.

Edited by homersapien

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A couple of points.

1. Anyone who has seriously studied the situation at the beginning of the Civil War KNOWS the issue in the beginning was State's Rights.. My wife grew up in

California and even they were taught that.But believe what you want. You can make long, yada yada posts until hell freezes over and you won't change my mind about the war or my admiration of Robert E. Lee.I have spent too much time over the years doing indepth study to not stand my ground.

2. Having said that, as ET said above, I started this thread simply noting that today was Lee's birthday ad that he is one of y historical heroes. I didn't bring politics into it until a couple of other posters did. If you want to do that start your own damn thread.

States rights for what reason?

Edited by homersapien

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