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***Auburn vs. La Tech Postgame Thread***


RunInRed

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I'll preface this by saying that I believe that Nick should be our starter, and I think that he gives us the best chance to win. But he has been far from perfect. He has made some great passes thus far this season, but as a whole his accuracy only seems moderately improved from last season. Also, the drops argument is getting a little stale. Yes, there have been drops, but there will always be drops, and I don't think our WRs have dropped more than most other teams. That's just part of the game, and imagining what his stats would be like without drops doesn't do much good. Overall, think of WR play has actually been stellar thus far, and will only get better once Sammy is 100%. I believe that Marshall gives us the best chance to win, but his accuracy will need to improve for us if we want to win the SEC this year.

First off, my initial reply was a recap of Marshall's last two games, and the reply to that straight up said that because I watched the games, I just had to know that he has't been playing very well. Now, yes, drops are a part of the game (I played WR in high school, and I made a couple of boneheaded plays of my own), but it is hard to put the blame on the QB when the ball hits the receiver in stride and bounces off his hands. That isn't to say that we should shift the blame to Duke, Sammie, or anyone else, or that Marshall hasn't been somewhat inconsistent (particularly earlier on in games), only pointing out that had those easy catches been made, his completion percentage and total yards would both have been much higher.

Beyond that, do you believe he is throwing the ball worse this year than he was last year? Because if he's not, then why would it be such a long shot for us to win the SEC without him improving his accuracy? Please don't misunderstand that to mean I don't want him to get better with ball placement and the like, only pointing out that he's on pace to eclipse his passing yards from last season, when we won the SEC.

Personally, I agree with what others have said about Gus not allowing Nick to keep as much on the zone read thus far this year, and have been getting the feeling ever since the first game that Malzahn has been trying to set us up for the brutal run we're about to start...but whether he's been restricting his playbook for that reason or not, the offense appears to me as if it's ready to explode. Maybe the O-line needs to gel in order to get the running game going, maybe utilizing Nick more in the zone read will be enough to keep defenses from collapsing on CAP/Corey, or more likely it's a combination of the two, but if we get the run game cranked up, Nick isn't going to have to be any more accurate a passer than he is now because the more defenses have to commit to the run, the more Malzahn is going to make them look stupid with his playcalling.

But time will tell.

I never blamed Marshall for the drops. I was merely suggesting that drops are a part of any QB's completion percentage, as are the spectacular catches that Marshall has also benefited from thus far (Melvin Ray's leaping one-handed grab in the opener, Duke's tipped TD reception, Bray's jump ball, etc). So I think that Marshall's numbers are actually a pretty fair representation of how well he's passed this season, all things considered.

And I don't believe he is passing worse than he did last year; I believe he has improved, albeit moderately so based on what he's shown. I think he will continue to improve, and that if he and Sammy can start connecting more consistently on the deep ball, then the over-under combo of Sammy and Duke will be truly deadly.

I also believe that he will need to continue to improve for us to have a shot at repeating as SEC champs. Our running game is good, and will likely keep getting better, but I don't know that we will be dropping 300 yards on the ground at will every game this year either. If we expect to win this year, we will need to rely more on the passing game than we did last year.

That's fair enough (though it seems I remember Ray's one handed grab was of a JJ pass...not sure), but I was more alluding to his numbers against K-State with regard to the drops, not the season numbers. The fact that they came in big moments that could have easily been a breaking point for beginning a runaway (like when we scored 24 on Arky in the second half) is more pertinent to me, anyway, but the point does remain that Nick has not been particularly crisp with his passes.

However, I still maintain that if/when we get more consistency in the run game, and particularly the zone read run game, the passing game will open up tremendously. That isn't to say I'm convinced either will happen, only that I've seen enough out of this team to believe it is likely to come together at some point...my biggest concern is that it won't happen in time to save us from a couple of losses.

But, again, time will tell.

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There was a guy with an Alabama shirt at the game...smh.

There's some at every function in Auburn. And they're not there with an AU spouse, child, etc. They come as a family. There's nothing else going on in their pathetic lives that they go to Auburn specifically in hopes of seeing AU lose.

Seeing them at the last rolling of Toomer's really made me angry.

Sorry to derail.

When Chizik had his book come out and was doing signings. He came to Pensacola for a book signing. I was in line at 5:30 AM. When Chizik arrived, and the signing started, there was a family of uaters dressed in that god awful garbage they wear, that was in the store (NOT IN LINE) and actually went ahead of those of us that were in line. Royally pissed me off...

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I'll preface this by saying that I believe that Nick should be our starter, and I think that he gives us the best chance to win. But he has been far from perfect. He has made some great passes thus far this season, but as a whole his accuracy only seems moderately improved from last season. Also, the drops argument is getting a little stale. Yes, there have been drops, but there will always be drops, and I don't think our WRs have dropped more than most other teams. That's just part of the game, and imagining what his stats would be like without drops doesn't do much good. Overall, think of WR play has actually been stellar thus far, and will only get better once Sammy is 100%. I believe that Marshall gives us the best chance to win, but his accuracy will need to improve for us if we want to win the SEC this year.

Beyond that, do you believe he is throwing the ball worse this year than he was last year? Because if he's not, then why would it be such a long shot for us to win the SEC without him improving his accuracy? Please don't misunderstand that to mean I don't want him to get better with ball placement and the like, only pointing out that he's on pace to eclipse his passing yards from last season, when we won the SEC.

Don't think I've ever disagreed with you Red so this might be the first. We need Marshall to be better throwing because we don't have Mason,Prosch,Robinson or Kozan this year giving us 300+ yards per game on the ground. Marshall, Coates and Williams need to carry more weight through the air.

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I, for one, would like to see alot more short passing game with Bray, Uzomah and CAP or grant. That would help take advantage of these teams that are stacking the box IMO. Help loosen up the D a little. Some TE curls and swing passes would be deadly with way Defenses have been playing us.

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Marshall seems to be forcing passes with too much zip to me. as if he can't get the timing down to lead the receiver to hit them in stride so he just tries to throw it on a rope. I have confidence he can do better, but definitely needs to have more touch on his passes. may need to work with the receivers even more outside of practice. not sure.

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Where has Marcus Davis been this year?

Good question. Is it a matter of Davis and others not getting open, or Marshall focusing too much on Coates and Duke?

He probably does focus on the main two a little I suppose. Ray has dropped off the radar after a promising start, CJ rarely seems involved (which is odd because he seems to produce when given the chance), Bray hasn't had a lot of opportunities, Davis has been MIA, and the backs don't get many receptions. Seems we are not taking advantage of the wealth of talent we have on O. Seems spreading it around would avoid having to throw in to double coverage so much.
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Jeremy Johnson needs A LOT more playing time. Nick is having all kinds of problems in the past 2 games.

397 yards passing, with 5 touchdowns and 1 interception (which was the result of a deflected throw), as well as 151 yards rushing. I'd say he's doing alright...

Be honest. You *watched* the games. NM is not throwing very well. Even the catchable balls are often not placed well. The "to a spot" throws are too low, the slants are low and behind, and the long balls are over the wrong shoulder. We *should* have had 400 yards passing against KSU alone. NM is a warrior, but if an SEC calibre team stuffs our run, I see nothing that makes me belief that he can consistently move the offense against them through the air.

Okay, I'll be honest. Yes, I watched the games. Against K-State, he was 17 of 31 for 2 touchdowns and an interception. I remember there being at least three drops, one of which would have been a touchdown. Two of the other incompletions were very deep throws that he could have thrown better, but that at least he didn't leave in a spot where there was much chance of a pick. Had those drops not been made, he likely *would* have thrown for 300-350 yards. It also would have raised his completion percentage nearly ten points...and that's without throwing one bit better than he did. Yes, the receivers bailed him out a few times today, but it would have been a much bigger deal to have made the normal catches last week and not made the spectacular ones today.

But the thing is that there is more to playing quarterback than simply throwing the football. Even the mere threat of him running is a potent weapon, because it forces the defense to respect that threat, thereby opening passing lanes and allowing for more mediocre accuracy than would having a less mobile QB. JJ can run, but he's not nearly the dynamic playmaker with his feet that Marshall is.

Furthermore, listen to the quotes from the players. They believe in him. They follow him. What happens if Johnson usurps him as the starter? Would Nick still be able to have confidence as a QB, giving us two guys capable of winning in this conference? Or would it be debilitating and leave us up a creek without a paddle should anything happen to JJ?

That last point is far and away the most important, btw, because the players have to have faith that their QB can get the job done. And time after time after time, when it matters, Nick Marshall has gotten the job done. Jeremy projects very well as the future of the position at Auburn, but his only truly meaningful game experience is one half against Arkansas. Yes, of course, he played well, but then, Nick has played his game pretty well, too.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying *any* of those arguments, with the exception of "team leader" argument.

1) Did the WRs drop some on NM? Sure they did. But, why are they dropping NMs balls, but seem to catch most of JJ's? It's because JJ throws a better ball. Nick throws lasers that are often low and behind the WR. Those are very hard to catch. He has a very hard time hitting a WR in stride. They always have to adjust to the ball, which means difficult catches and very little chance for continuing to run after the catch.

2) The "would have" game works both ways. Our WRs have dropped a few, but Ray, Bray and Duke have made some amazing catches to bail out NM as well. NM is benefiting from WR play as much as he is being hurt by it.

3) I just can't buy into the "Nick has played well, too" argument. I LOVE NM. I love the way he plays, but his running game has been mostly MIA this season. He had 46 yards against K-State and 19 yards against Ark, the only two teams we have played that come close to having a defense. JJ and Nick played equal parts against Ark, and you could argue that JJ had the tougher row to hoe given that the defense didn't come alive until the second half. JJ produced more points and more total yards than NM.

4) NM's "theat to run" isn't helping us right now, at all. We haven't had an effective running game in how may quarters now? If NM's major contribution is making defenders commit to him, then either he, another RB, or our passing game should be blowing up. None of that is happening. Our running game is sputtering and our passing game is not consistent enough to be a full time threat. Honestly, I am starting to believe that NM must be hurt. He really does not appear to be a threat running the ball right now.

5) I'll go back to what I said about watching the games. NM is just not a great passer. As you said, his impact is as a runner and a read option QB, and right now, he is NOT impacting the game as a runner or a read option QB.

I LOVE NM, I think he's a great young man, and I hope the game turns around, but right now I don't see any way this offense can put up a lot of points against top SEC defenses.

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I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying *any* of those arguments, with the exception of "team leader" argument.

1) Did the WRs drop some on NM? Sure they did. But, why are they dropping NMs balls, but seem to catch most of JJ's? It's because JJ throws a better ball. Nick throws lasers that are often low and behind the WR. Those are very hard to catch. He has a very hard time hitting a WR in stride. They always have to adjust to the ball, which means difficult catches and very little chance for continuing to run after the catch.

2) The "would have" game works both ways. Our WRs have dropped a few, but Ray, Bray and Duke have made some amazing catches to bail out NM as well. NM is benefiting from WR play as much as he is being hurt by it.

Neither of these rebuttals are true in the KSU game. I can distinctly remember 3 of the drops and they were right on the money either in stride or right in the numbers, not too hard. And while they have made some amazing catches, they've made some darn good catches with JJ too. And the throw at the end to Duke that clinched the game was an NFL throw if there ever was one. Right in stride, perfect arc and touch.

3) I just can't buy into the "Nick has played well, too" argument. I LOVE NM. I love the way he plays, but his running game has been mostly MIA this season. He had 46 yards against K-State and 19 yards against Ark, the only two teams we have played that come close to having a defense. JJ and Nick played equal parts against Ark, and you could argue that JJ had the tougher row to hoe given that the defense didn't come alive until the second half. JJ produced more points and more total yards than NM.

The running game was nonexistent versus Arkansas with JJ in there. It came to life in the 2nd half with Nick. The mere threat of him running changes things.

I'll also note that in the only game where JJ got significant playing time vs decent competition (Arkansas), he started out on fire but sputtered in his next three drives: two "3 and outs" and one 5 play drive that ended at our 40 as time expired in the first half.

4) NM's "theat to run" isn't helping us right now, at all. We haven't had an effective running game in how may quarters now? If NM's major contribution is making defenders commit to him, then either he, another RB, or our passing game should be blowing up. None of that is happening. Our running game is sputtering and our passing game is not consistent enough to be a full time threat. Honestly, I am starting to believe that NM must be hurt. He really does not appear to be a threat running the ball right now.

We have had an effective running game. We are getting yards. But it's not as consistent and unstoppable as it was at the end of last season. We are not getting shut down.

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Also, just for comparison's sake, Trevor Knight vs Nick Marshall against La Tech:

Knight 19 of 34 (55.8% completion rate), 7.4 yds per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT

Marshall 10 of 17 (58.8%), 9.8 yds per att., 3 TDs, 0 INTs

I'll also note on offense that OU had 40 rushing attempts for 183 yds (4.6 yds per carry) vs Auburn's 48 attempts for 254 yds (5.3 yds per carry).

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Sorry but that pass at the end of the k state game wasn't a nfl throw.....I feel like they have to choose one qb or the other but saying Marshall has to throw the ball better doesn't mean you hate him it just is what it is

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Sorry but that pass at the end of the k state game wasn't a nfl throw.....I feel like they have to choose one qb or the other but saying Marshall has to throw the ball better doesn't mean you hate him it just is what it is

Maybe it wasn't quite an NFL throw, but it was laid in there almost perfect, over the top, with touch and it was a big time clutch throw.

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Sorry but that pass at the end of the k state game wasn't a nfl throw.....I feel like they have to choose one qb or the other but saying Marshall has to throw the ball better doesn't mean you hate him it just is what it is

Maybe it wasn't quite an NFL throw, but it was laid in there almost perfect, over the top, with touch and it was a big time clutch throw.

i'll take it.
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Sorry but that pass at the end of the k state game wasn't a nfl throw.....I feel like they have to choose one qb or the other but saying Marshall has to throw the ball better doesn't mean you hate him it just is what it is

Maybe it wasn't quite an NFL throw, but it was laid in there almost perfect, over the top, with touch and it was a big time clutch throw.

Definitely that. I think if Jr had hit him in stride he would have scored. I just care about winning though personally

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I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying *any* of those arguments, with the exception of "team leader" argument.

1) Did the WRs drop some on NM? Sure they did. But, why are they dropping NMs balls, but seem to catch most of JJ's? It's because JJ throws a better ball. Nick throws lasers that are often low and behind the WR. Those are very hard to catch. He has a very hard time hitting a WR in stride. They always have to adjust to the ball, which means difficult catches and very little chance for continuing to run after the catch.

2) The "would have" game works both ways. Our WRs have dropped a few, but Ray, Bray and Duke have made some amazing catches to bail out NM as well. NM is benefiting from WR play as much as he is being hurt by it.

Neither of these rebuttals are true in the KSU game. I can distinctly remember 3 of the drops and they were right on the money either in stride or right in the numbers, not too hard. And while they have made some amazing catches, they've made some darn good catches with JJ too. And the throw at the end to Duke that clinched the game was an NFL throw if there ever was one. Right in stride, perfect arc and touch.

3) I just can't buy into the "Nick has played well, too" argument. I LOVE NM. I love the way he plays, but his running game has been mostly MIA this season. He had 46 yards against K-State and 19 yards against Ark, the only two teams we have played that come close to having a defense. JJ and Nick played equal parts against Ark, and you could argue that JJ had the tougher row to hoe given that the defense didn't come alive until the second half. JJ produced more points and more total yards than NM.

The running game was nonexistent versus Arkansas with JJ in there. It came to life in the 2nd half with Nick. The mere threat of him running changes things.

I'll also note that in the only game where JJ got significant playing time vs decent competition (Arkansas), he started out on fire but sputtered in his next three drives: two "3 and outs" and one 5 play drive that ended at our 40 as time expired in the first half.

4) NM's "theat to run" isn't helping us right now, at all. We haven't had an effective running game in how may quarters now? If NM's major contribution is making defenders commit to him, then either he, another RB, or our passing game should be blowing up. None of that is happening. Our running game is sputtering and our passing game is not consistent enough to be a full time threat. Honestly, I am starting to believe that NM must be hurt. He really does not appear to be a threat running the ball right now.

We have had an effective running game. We are getting yards. But it's not as consistent and unstoppable as it was at the end of last season. We are not getting shut down.

Without making this thread too long...

1) The throw to Duke by NM at the end of the KS games was NOT an NFL calibre throw. If it was, Duke runs to the end zone without breaking stride and scores. Duke had to twist his body in the air and reach back to catch the ball over the wrong shoulder, which is why he never had a chance to run with the ball after the catch.

2) It's hard to compare the KSU game, b/c JJ never really had a chance to throw. That drop by Duke was bad, but some of those drops were contributed to by Nick. A hard ball thrown low is much harder to catch than a ball with a little touch thrown at face level. It is certainly true that even though NM has had the benefit of playing teams selling out to stop the run, his completion percentage for the season is 57% compared to JJ's 76% (and NM has also had the majority of the snaps against weak teams). NM may have suffered from a few drops, but he also suffered from some throws that ranged from a little to a lot off.

3) We put up 254 yds rushing against **La Tech** and 128 yds rushing against K-State. We've really had two quarters of a good running game this season, IMHO (2nd half Arkansas), and that half of football produced 10 offensive points. I would not call that running game effective enough to win through our upcoming schedule. I would not call 2.8ypc against K-State and 3.2 ypc against La Tech that effective. In fact, I think that we have one of the lowest yards per carry in the SEC right now. You know what would help that? A passing game.

I'm not against NM. I like him, and hope he succeeds. I *want* to see him and AU succeed. I'd love to see the read option suddenly open up a can on the rest of our schedule. What I'm against is pretending that NM is an accurate passer, or that he is really having a great year throwing the ball and everyone else is letting him down. Evidence is to the contrary, and it's a little unfair to the rest of the team to put the blame solely on them (although the WRs do share some of that blame). I'm also against pretending that our running game is dominant enough to get by with a highly inconsistent passing game. It's just not. Not right now.

All that said, I've never coached a down, but I have followed AU football for quite a few years.

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Without making this thread too long...

1) The throw to Duke by NM at the end of the KS games was NOT an NFL calibre throw. If it was, Duke runs to the end zone without breaking stride and scores. Duke had to twist his body in the air and reach back to catch the ball over the wrong shoulder, which is why he never had a chance to run with the ball after the catch.

I've seen NFL guys miss people in that situation. But I already said it might not have been an "NFL throw" but it was still a damn good one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VzUQbmuW9lU#t=7728

He didn't "twist" his body. He went up and caught it by turning a bit. It wasn't over his outside shoulder.

2) It's hard to compare the KSU game, b/c JJ never really had a chance to throw. That drop by Duke was bad, but some of those drops were contributed to by Nick. A hard ball thrown low is much harder to catch than a ball with a little touch thrown at face level. It is certainly true that even though NM has had the benefit of playing teams selling out to stop the run, his completion percentage for the season is 57% compared to JJ's 76% (and NM has also had the majority of the snaps against weak teams). NM may have suffered from a few drops, but he also suffered from some throws that ranged from a little to a lot off.

Like, I said, the three most egregious drops were not Nick's fault by any stretch of the imagination. Duke's two drops were both horrible. Sammie's drop was horrible. Neither were low or too hard. One of Duke's likely would have been a TD.

3) We put up 254 yds rushing against **La Tech** and 128 yds rushing against K-State. We've really had two quarters of a good running game this season, IMHO (2nd half Arkansas), and that half of football produced 10 offensive points. I would not call that running game effective enough to win through our upcoming schedule. I would not call 2.8ypc against K-State and 3.2 ypc against La Tech that effective. In fact, I think that we have one of the lowest yards per carry in the SEC right now. You know what would help that? A passing game.

We ran for 5.3 ypc vs La Tech (48 carries for 254 yds). Our only truly bad performance was against KSU and the 1st half of Arky. We moved the ball and had good runs against La Tech...both Marshall and CAP were over 100 yds with Nick averaging over 8 yds per carry and CAP averaging 5.3 per carry. We just didn't get that guaranteed 3-4 yards everytime we ran it up the middle like the latter half of last year.

Also, try 6th in yards per carry in the league with 5.5 ypc.

I'm not against NM. I like him, and hope he succeeds. I *want* to see him and AU succeed. I'd love to see the read option suddenly open up a can on the rest of our schedule. What I'm against is pretending that NM is an accurate passer, or that he is really having a great year throwing the ball and everyone else is letting him down. Evidence is to the contrary, and it's a little unfair to the rest of the team to put the blame solely on them (although the WRs do share some of that blame). I'm also against pretending that our running game is dominant enough to get by with a highly inconsistent passing game. It's just not. Not right now.

All that said, I've never coached a down, but I have followed AU football for quite a few years.

I think you're arguing against a point no one is making. No one has said he's having a "really great year" throwing the ball or that he's an accurate passer. Neither is anyone solely blaming the wideouts. What we are saying is that you can't just point to completion percentages and ignore easy drops. It's far easier to make a catch right in your numbers than it is to throw a perfectly accurate ball 30+ yards downfield for instance. And what we are also saying is that putting JJ in isn't necessarily going to make things all better. We lose other parts of the offense right now with JJ in the game instead of Nick. And most of the running game's problems are not really due to anything we didn't see last year (loading the box). It's that the blocking assignments aren't being executed the right way compared to last year. Solve that and a lot of things work better.

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I'll preface this by saying that I believe that Nick should be our starter, and I think that he gives us the best chance to win. But he has been far from perfect. He has made some great passes thus far this season, but as a whole his accuracy only seems moderately improved from last season. Also, the drops argument is getting a little stale. Yes, there have been drops, but there will always be drops, and I don't think our WRs have dropped more than most other teams. That's just part of the game, and imagining what his stats would be like without drops doesn't do much good. Overall, think of WR play has actually been stellar thus far, and will only get better once Sammy is 100%. I believe that Marshall gives us the best chance to win, but his accuracy will need to improve for us if we want to win the SEC this year.

Beyond that, do you believe he is throwing the ball worse this year than he was last year? Because if he's not, then why would it be such a long shot for us to win the SEC without him improving his accuracy? Please don't misunderstand that to mean I don't want him to get better with ball placement and the like, only pointing out that he's on pace to eclipse his passing yards from last season, when we won the SEC.

Don't think I've ever disagreed with you Red so this might be the first. We need Marshall to be better throwing because we don't have Mason,Prosch,Robinson or Kozan this year giving us 300+ yards per game on the ground. Marshall, Coates and Williams need to carry more weight through the air.

We have been more productive through the first four games this season than we were over the same stretch last season, and the defense has been markedly better, so what is there to indicate that we are a long shot to win the SEC without a significant improvement in Marshall's passing? Again, that's not to say I don't want to see him throw the ball better, more that I don't think its such a lost cause if he doesn't. Quite frankly, if we can get the run game, and particularly the read option, fired up, then I don't believe he will need to be better specifically because defenses will have to commit more to stopping the run, thereby opening up more passing opportunities for Nick and the receivers to take advantage.

Of course, that hinges on the run game getting better, which rests upon the shoulders of the offensive line. Saturday will likely be the day that tells us whether we need to switch gears a bit...but I have a feeling Malzahn has a few tricks still up his sleeves.

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No one has said he's having a "really great year" throwing the ball or that he's an accurate passer. Neither is anyone solely blaming the wideouts. What we are saying is that you can't just point to completion percentages and ignore easy drops. It's far easier to make a catch right in your numbers than it is to throw a perfectly accurate ball 30+ yards downfield for instance. And what we are also saying is that putting JJ in isn't necessarily going to make things all better. We lose other parts of the offense right now with JJ in the game instead of Nick. And most of the running game's problems are not really due to anything we didn't see last year (loading the box). It's that the blocking assignments aren't being executed the right way compared to last year. Solve that and a lot of things work better.

+1

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Also, just for comparison's sake, Trevor Knight vs Nick Marshall against La Tech:

Knight 19 of 34 (55.8% completion rate), 7.4 yds per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT

Marshall 10 of 17 (58.8%), 9.8 yds per att., 3 TDs, 0 INTs

I'll also note on offense that OU had 40 rushing attempts for 183 yds (4.6 yds per carry) vs Auburn's 48 attempts for 254 yds (5.3 yds per carry).

Now this is the sort of comparison I wouldn't mind seeing from the folks on the Committee.

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