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Charleston police officer shoots man in back


cooltigger21

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..where have you ever read on this forum that police just want to shoot blacks. Only person making sweeping claims is you and most that are arguing a stupid point

I guess that first part of your post is the " question ", though there's no question mark to be found.

I didn't claim or limit that point of view to only this forum.

My comment was in response to a wider array of things I've seen / heard on the news, radio shows, etc...

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..where have you ever read on this forum that police just want to shoot blacks. Only person making sweeping claims is you and most that are arguing a stupid point

I guess that first part of your post is the " question ", though there's no question mark to be found.

I didn't claim or limit that point of view to only this forum.

My comment was in response to a wider array of things I've seen / heard on the news, radio shows, etc...

It hasn't been explicitly stated but it has been implied.
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Let's take a look the people with the most to say about fergerson the very ones the most to say pretty much he brought this on himself....hmmm.

Think the cop would have shot the man had he just stayed in his car ?

Yes or No.

my point exactly.

So any resistance understandably leads to deadly force, even running away?

No T.T.. The point I was making this whole thread is that people who don't resist very rarely have any problem with LEOs. We hear the rhetoric and it influences people to resist or run. then things go bad. the wrong message gets sent, cities get burned, cops get shot then cops jobs get harder. i can tell you this though, resisting or running is not going to lead to anything good.

Resisting or running may not lead to anything good, but unless an officer's life is in real danger it shouldn't lead to 8 shots at a man running away who isn't wanted for a violent crime. 3 shots missed. What if they had hit a child some distance from this incident or the citizen that happened to be walking by who filmed it? Firing his gun was outrageous, pure and simple.

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I just read 23 pages on this topic and three issues immediately jump out.

First, every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder. Focus on this for a second please. Every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder. Again, every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder!

The second is police brutality. It is being addressed and hopefully we will make progress in this area. We know there is a fringe element in law enforcement that doesn't deserve to wear the badge. We have to get this fringe off the streets. I don't pretend to know how we do this, but we must. It needs to be addressed before we have more innocent men killed or beaten unmercifully. We have to be much more proactive in our selection process and likely in educating our police force. I'm a proponent of body cameras. I think they work. If an officer is found guilty of brutality fire them. It is likely not that simple, but we need to figure it out and soon.

The third issue is respect for authority. This is taboo to many. Why? Just look at some of the ignorant and/or stupid comments on this thread. You don't think the subject should be addressed? Well guess what, neither does your beloved media. It is as if it doesn't exist. Why can't we have a civil discussion on this as well? Why can't the media? It does exist and it is killing our young men and women. Resist the urge to criticize some trying to broach the subject and intelligently apply logic. Let's have the discussion as adults. Can we do that? Simply look at the facts in the Michael Brown, Eric Garner and Walter Scott incidents. Had these three men respected the instruction of law enforcement they would each be alive today. That is a fact and we need to act like adults and admit it. This country needs to have this discussion.

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I just read 23 pages on this topic and three issues immediately jump out.

First, every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder. Focus on this for a second please. Every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder. Again, every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder!

The second is police brutality. It is being addressed and hopefully we will make progress in this area. We know there is a fringe element in law enforcement that doesn't deserve to wear the badge. We have to get this fringe off the streets. I don't pretend to know how we do this, but we must. It needs to be addressed before we have more innocent men killed or beaten unmercifully. We have to be much more proactive in our selection process and likely in educating our police force. I'm a proponent of body cameras. I think they work. If an officer is found guilty of brutality fire them. It is likely not that simple, but we need to figure it out and soon.

The third issue is respect for authority. This is taboo to many. Why? Just look at some of the ignorant and/or stupid comments on this thread. You don't think the subject should be addressed? Well guess what, neither does your beloved media. It is as if it doesn't exist. Why can't we have a civil discussion on this as well? Why can't the media? It does exist and it is killing our young men and women. Resist the urge to criticize some trying to broach the subject and intelligently apply logic. Let's have the discussion as adults. Can we do that? Simply look at the facts in the Michael Brown, Eric Garner and Walter Scott. Had these three men respected the instruction of law enforcement they would each be alive today. That is a fact and we need to act like adults and admit it. This country needs to have this discussion.

Very well stated. Could not have said it better.
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I just read 23 pages on this topic and three issues immediately jump out.

First, every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder. Focus on this for a second please. Every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder. Again, every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder!

The second is police brutality. It is being addressed and hopefully we will make progress in this area. We know there is a fringe element in law enforcement that doesn't deserve to wear the badge. We have to get this fringe off the streets. I don't pretend to know how we do this, but we must. It needs to be addressed before we have more innocent men killed or beaten unmercifully. We have to be much more proactive in our selection process and likely in educating our police force. I'm a proponent of body cameras. I think they work. If an officer is found guilty of brutality fire them. It is likely not that simple, but we need to figure it out and soon.

The third issue is respect for authority. This is taboo to many. Why? Just look at some of the ignorant and/or stupid comments on this thread. You don't think the subject should be addressed? Well guess what, neither does your beloved media. It is as if it doesn't exist. Why can't we have a civil discussion on this as well? Why can't the media? It does exist and it is killing our young men and women. Resist the urge to criticize some trying to broach the subject and intelligently apply logic. Let's have the discussion as adults. Can we do that? Simply look at the facts in the Michael Brown, Eric Garner and Walter Scott incidents. Had these three men respected the instruction of law enforcement they would each be alive today. That is a fact and we need to act like adults and admit it. This country needs to have this discussion.

You are seeing what you want to see in this thread, then.

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I just read 23 pages on this topic and three issues immediately jump out.

First, every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder. Focus on this for a second please. Every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder. Again, every poster here agrees this cop is guilty of murder!

The second is police brutality. It is being addressed and hopefully we will make progress in this area. We know there is a fringe element in law enforcement that doesn't deserve to wear the badge. We have to get this fringe off the streets. I don't pretend to know how we do this, but we must. It needs to be addressed before we have more innocent men killed or beaten unmercifully. We have to be much more proactive in our selection process and likely in educating our police force. I'm a proponent of body cameras. I think they work. If an officer is found guilty of brutality fire them. It is likely not that simple, but we need to figure it out and soon.

The third issue is respect for authority. This is taboo to many. Why? Just look at some of the ignorant and/or stupid comments on this thread. You don't think the subject should be addressed? Well guess what, neither does your beloved media. It is as if it doesn't exist. Why can't we have a civil discussion on this as well? Why can't the media? It does exist and it is killing our young men and women. Resist the urge to criticize some trying to broach the subject and intelligently apply logic. Let's have the discussion as adults. Can we do that? Simply look at the facts in the Michael Brown, Eric Garner and Walter Scott incidents. Had these three men respected the instruction of law enforcement they would each be alive today. That is a fact and we need to act like adults and admit it. This country needs to have this discussion.

You are seeing what you want to see in this thread, then.

I am seeing clearly what is in the thread. Don't take it personally. I didn't queue the dog bark. ;D
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Sorry, but while the issue of respecting authority is a legitimate issue, it's not central.

Like everyone else, I don't know any of the details - did the victim have a history with this cop? Was he mentally stable at the time? What did the cop say to him?

But my point is this is not about appropriate submission to authority, it's about cops using way more force than necessary to deal with the particular situation.

You don't shoot someone down for running from you at a traffic stop.

In a perfect world, everyone the cops stopped would be sane and rational and not carrying emotional baggage. I wouldn't even occur to them to run.

In a perfect world 'psychopaths' (ASPD) wouldn't exist. But they do. Perhaps 1 to 3 % of the population. They are attracted to positions that grant them authority, so you would naturally expect the rate of sociopaths in LEO to be higher than the general population.

What we need is a paradigm shift in the attitudes of some LEO officers and departments. We also need to identify and weed out the sociopaths. Perhaps body cams will help achieve that.

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So any resistance understandably leads to deadly force, even running away?

It can if you strike an officer & try to take his sidearm ( M Brown ). If you're morbidly obese & have aesthma , you might put yourself in a high risk situation where you initiate a physically stressful event. ( Garner )

No reason for a grown man to run away like Scott did.

That's a perfect example of how one can use rational statements to present a seriously distorted perspective.

I bet you don't get it.

I can see you don't. The simple truth is this. Walter Scott played a role in his own demise. Had he not run he would still be alive. His life wasn't in danger up until the point where he decided to run. No he didn't deserve to get shot and killed but actions have consequences. He had no real reason to fear except for maybe he had heard too much from people like Al Sharpton and Eric Holder. Black men all across the country have been led to believe that all cops are out to get them. The left and the race hustlers in particular have spent years spreading the lie that things haven't changed since the 1960's. It is insidious. That is one part of the equation. The other equally important part is better screening of candidates for the police force. Better training and better policing tactics are needed. Use body cams on all officers. Even have more community involvement with the police department. I'm sure there is more but that is what comes to mind immediately. One more time I will repeat that the officer was in no way justified in his actions. He has been fired and will spend most of, if not all, the rest of his life in prison. There are no winners in this.
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Sorry, but the issue of respecting authority is a legitimate issue, it's not central.

Like everyone else, I don't know any of the details - did the victim have a history with this cop? Was he mentally stable at the time? What did the cop say to him?

But my point is this is not about appropriate submission to authority, it's about cops using way more force than necessary to deal with the particular situation.

You don't shoot someone down for running from you at a traffic stop.

In a perfect world, everyone the cops stopped would be sane and rational and not carrying emotional baggage. I wouldn't even occur to them to run.

In a perfect world 'psychopaths' (ASPD) wouldn't exist. But they do. Perhaps 1 to 3 % of the population. They are attracted to positions that grant them authority, so you would naturally expect the rate of sociopaths in LEO to be higher than the general population.

What we need is a paradigm shift in the attitudes of some LEO officers and departments. We also need to identify and weed out the sociopaths. Perhaps body cams will help achieve that.

Correct. I don't think folks are defending resisting arrest.

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Sorry, but the issue of respecting authority is a legitimate issue, it's not central.

Like everyone else, I don't know any of the details - did the victim have a history with this cop? Was he mentally stable at the time? What did the cop say to him?

But my point is this is not about appropriate submission to authority, it's about cops using way more force than necessary to deal with the particular situation.

You don't shoot someone down for running from you at a traffic stop.

In a perfect world, everyone the cops stopped would be sane and rational and not carrying emotional baggage. I wouldn't even occur to them to run.

In a perfect world 'psychopaths' (ASPD) wouldn't exist. But they do. Perhaps 1 to 3 % of the population. They are attracted to positions that grant them authority, so you would naturally expect the rate of sociopaths in LEO to be higher than the general population.

What we need is a paradigm shift in the attitudes of some LEO officers and departments. We also need to identify and weed out the sociopaths. Perhaps body cams will help achieve that.

Correct. I don't think folks are defending resisting arrest.

nor are they defending shooting a fleeing man in the back.
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So any resistance understandably leads to deadly force, even running away?

It can if you strike an officer & try to take his sidearm ( M Brown ). If you're morbidly obese & have aesthma , you might put yourself in a high risk situation where you initiate a physically stressful event. ( Garner )

No reason for a grown man to run away like Scott did.

That's a perfect example of how one can use rational statements to present a seriously distorted perspective.

I bet you don't get it.

I can see you don't. The simple truth is this. Walter Scott played a role in his own demise. Had he not run he would still be alive. His life wasn't in danger up until the point where he decided to run. No he didn't deserve to get shot and killed but actions have consequences. He had no real reason to fear except for maybe he had heard too much from people like Al Sharpton and Eric Holder. Black men all across the country have been led to believe that all cops are out to get them. The left and the race hustlers in particular have spent years spreading the lie that things haven't changed since the 1960's. It is insidious. That is one part of the equation. The other equally important part is better screening of candidates for the police force. Better training and better policing tactics are needed. Use body cams on all officers. Even have more community involvement with the police department. I'm sure there is more but that is what comes to mind immediately. One more time I will repeat that the officer was in no way justified in his actions. He has been fired and will spend most of, if not all, the rest of his life in prison. There are no winners in this.

I really don't think you have any standing to explain the problem blacks have with law enforcement. Especially when the explanation relies on your partisan political obsessions.

Just as predicted, there are those on this forum who will argue the case for the LEO, in principle if not in particular. That's exactly what all this "had he not run he'd still be alive" and 'respect for authority' language is.

Even in a case such as this, you aren't satisfied unless you can assign some culpability to the victim for what happened to him.

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Sorry, but while the issue of respecting authority is a legitimate issue, it's not central.

Like everyone else, I don't know any of the details - did the victim have a history with this cop? Was he mentally stable at the time? What did the cop say to him?

But my point is this is not about appropriate submission to authority, it's about cops using way more force than necessary to deal with the particular situation.

You don't shoot someone down for running from you at a traffic stop.

In a perfect world, everyone the cops stopped would be sane and rational and not carrying emotional baggage. I wouldn't even occur to them to run.

In a perfect world 'psychopaths' (ASPD) wouldn't exist. But they do. Perhaps 1 to 3 % of the population. They are attracted to positions that grant them authority, so you would naturally expect the rate of sociopaths in LEO to be higher than the general population.

What we need is a paradigm shift in the attitudes of some LEO officers and departments. We also need to identify and weed out the sociopaths. Perhaps body cams will help achieve that.

We agree for the most part. It still seems you are trying to dismiss authority and respect. Maybe I am mistaken. IDK.
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So any resistance understandably leads to deadly force, even running away?

It can if you strike an officer & try to take his sidearm ( M Brown ). If you're morbidly obese & have aesthma , you might put yourself in a high risk situation where you initiate a physically stressful event. ( Garner )

No reason for a grown man to run away like Scott did.

That's a perfect example of how one can use rational statements to present a seriously distorted perspective.

I bet you don't get it.

I can see you don't. The simple truth is this. Walter Scott played a role in his own demise. Had he not run he would still be alive. His life wasn't in danger up until the point where he decided to run. No he didn't deserve to get shot and killed but actions have consequences. He had no real reason to fear except for maybe he had heard too much from people like Al Sharpton and Eric Holder. Black men all across the country have been led to believe that all cops are out to get them. The left and the race hustlers in particular have spent years spreading the lie that things haven't changed since the 1960's. It is insidious. That is one part of the equation. The other equally important part is better screening of candidates for the police force. Better training and better policing tactics are needed. Use body cams on all officers. Even have more community involvement with the police department. I'm sure there is more but that is what comes to mind immediately. One more time I will repeat that the officer was in no way justified in his actions. He has been fired and will spend most of, if not all, the rest of his life in prison. There are no winners in this.

I really don't think you have any standing to explain the problem blacks have with law enforcement. Especially when the explanation relies on your partisan political obsessions.

Just as predicted, there are those on this forum who will argue the case for the LEO, in principle if not in particular. That's exactly what all this "had he not run he'd still be alive" and 'respect for authority' language is.

Even in a case such as this, you aren't satisfied unless you can assign some culpability to the victim for what happened to him.

I've seen no one argue for this LEO. Everyone wants him to rot in prison if not hell.

With regards to your "respect for authority" comment, I think there are those here and this country in general who lack the courage to broach the subject. Likely for political reasons.

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So any resistance understandably leads to deadly force, even running away?

It can if you strike an officer & try to take his sidearm ( M Brown ). If you're morbidly obese & have aesthma , you might put yourself in a high risk situation where you initiate a physically stressful event. ( Garner )

No reason for a grown man to run away like Scott did.

That's a perfect example of how one can use rational statements to present a seriously distorted perspective.

I bet you don't get it.

I can see you don't. The simple truth is this. Walter Scott played a role in his own demise. Had he not run he would still be alive. His life wasn't in danger up until the point where he decided to run. No he didn't deserve to get shot and killed but actions have consequences. He had no real reason to fear except for maybe he had heard too much from people like Al Sharpton and Eric Holder. Black men all across the country have been led to believe that all cops are out to get them. The left and the race hustlers in particular have spent years spreading the lie that things haven't changed since the 1960's. It is insidious. That is one part of the equation. The other equally important part is better screening of candidates for the police force. Better training and better policing tactics are needed. Use body cams on all officers. Even have more community involvement with the police department. I'm sure there is more but that is what comes to mind immediately. One more time I will repeat that the officer was in no way justified in his actions. He has been fired and will spend most of, if not all, the rest of his life in prison. There are no winners in this.

I really don't think you have any standing to explain the problem blacks have with law enforcement. Especially when the explanation relies on your partisan political obsessions.

Just as predicted, there are those on this forum who will argue the case for the LEO, in principle if not in particular. That's exactly what all this "had he not run he'd still be alive" and 'respect for authority' language is.

Even in a case such as this, you aren't satisfied unless you can assign some culpability to the victim for what happened to him.

Did you miss the statement claiming this man was" murdered for a broken taillight"?
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"Respect for authority" raises a few immediate questions if it is to be discussed. First, what is the authority, and what does it represent? Second, is it considered to be worthy of respect? The second question is where perception becomes important, and I addressed this indirectly in a previous post.

As I said previously, I think most poor people look at the police as the front door to what they see as a defunct and possibly corrupt criminal justice system. To a poor person, being arrested can be validly considered to be synonymous with convicted. They lack the means to hire an attorney that will vigorously defend them, and representing yourself in a modern court is about as effective toward proving your innocence or having yourself heard as simply pleading guilty. Meanwhile, the time they have spent in jail pending trial (since they could not afford bond) has done nothing but fester frustration with the criminal justice system that sticks with them after they have served whatever sentence they were given or paid whatever fines. That frustration spreads quickly among people that have either experienced the same thing themselves, or known someone that did. Those fines are also a source of hardship to those that are poor; they carry the penalty of further incarceration if unpaid, and it does not matter if you are capable of paying them or not.

Whether we agree or disagree with that perception is irrelevant. It is real, and it must be dealt with if progress is to be made. While it may seem like the obvious answer is addressing "respect for authority", that is impossible to address without first addressing why the lack of said respect exists.

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So any resistance understandably leads to deadly force, even running away?

It can if you strike an officer & try to take his sidearm ( M Brown ). If you're morbidly obese & have aesthma , you might put yourself in a high risk situation where you initiate a physically stressful event. ( Garner )

No reason for a grown man to run away like Scott did.

That's a perfect example of how one can use rational statements to present a seriously distorted perspective.

I bet you don't get it.

I can see you don't. The simple truth is this. Walter Scott played a role in his own demise. Had he not run he would still be alive. His life wasn't in danger up until the point where he decided to run. No he didn't deserve to get shot and killed but actions have consequences. He had no real reason to fear except for maybe he had heard too much from people like Al Sharpton and Eric Holder. Black men all across the country have been led to believe that all cops are out to get them. The left and the race hustlers in particular have spent years spreading the lie that things haven't changed since the 1960's. It is insidious. That is one part of the equation. The other equally important part is better screening of candidates for the police force. Better training and better policing tactics are needed. Use body cams on all officers. Even have more community involvement with the police department. I'm sure there is more but that is what comes to mind immediately. One more time I will repeat that the officer was in no way justified in his actions. He has been fired and will spend most of, if not all, the rest of his life in prison. There are no winners in this.

I really don't think you have any standing to explain the problem blacks have with law enforcement. Especially when the explanation relies on your partisan political obsessions.

Just as predicted, there are those on this forum who will argue the case for the LEO, in principle if not in particular. That's exactly what all this "had he not run he'd still be alive" and 'respect for authority' language is.

Even in a case such as this, you aren't satisfied unless you can assign some culpability to the victim for what happened to him.

Did you miss the statement claiming this man was" murdered for a broken taillight"?

No, I acknowledged it with this sentence:

"Just as predicted, there are those on this forum who will argue the case for the LEO, in principle if not in particular."

Which means: if you can't argue the particular case from the LEO's perspective, then make a generalized argument the victim is partly responsible for his own death by running.

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Sorry, but while the issue of respecting authority is a legitimate issue, it's not central.

Like everyone else, I don't know any of the details - did the victim have a history with this cop? Was he mentally stable at the time? What did the cop say to him?

But my point is this is not about appropriate submission to authority, it's about cops using way more force than necessary to deal with the particular situation.

You don't shoot someone down for running from you at a traffic stop.

In a perfect world, everyone the cops stopped would be sane and rational and not carrying emotional baggage. I wouldn't even occur to them to run.

In a perfect world 'psychopaths' (ASPD) wouldn't exist. But they do. Perhaps 1 to 3 % of the population. They are attracted to positions that grant them authority, so you would naturally expect the rate of sociopaths in LEO to be higher than the general population.

What we need is a paradigm shift in the attitudes of some LEO officers and departments. We also need to identify and weed out the sociopaths. Perhaps body cams will help achieve that.

We agree for the most part. It still seems you are trying to dismiss authority and respect. Maybe I am mistaken. IDK.

I said "....the issue of respecting authority is a legitimate issue.."

That doesn't sound to me like I am trying to "dismiss" it.

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"Respect for authority" raises a few immediate questions if it is to be discussed. First, what is the authority, and what does it represent? Second, is it considered to be worthy of respect? The second question is where perception becomes important, and I addressed this indirectly in a previous post.

As I said previously, I think most poor people look at the police as the front door to what they see as a defunct and possibly corrupt criminal justice system. To a poor person, being arrested can be validly considered to be synonymous with convicted. They lack the means to hire an attorney that will vigorously defend them, and representing yourself in a modern court is about as effective toward proving your innocence or having yourself heard as simply pleading guilty. Meanwhile, the time they have spent in jail pending trial (since they could not afford bond) has done nothing but fester frustration with the criminal justice system that sticks with them after they have served whatever sentence they were given or paid whatever fines. That frustration spreads quickly among people that have either experienced the same thing themselves, or known someone that did. Those fines are also a source of hardship to those that are poor; they carry the penalty of further incarceration if unpaid, and it does not matter if you are capable of paying them or not.

Whether we agree or disagree with that perception is irrelevant. It is real, and it must be dealt with if progress is to be made. While it may seem like the obvious answer is addressing "respect for authority", that is impossible to address without first addressing why the lack of said respect exists.

That's a thoughtful perspective.

It addresses the issue of respect - which is central to the problem - but it's way more complicated that simply making the correct choice instinctively as the rest of us may see it.

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He initially pulled the guy over for a broken tail light....This is scary man

This is the quote alexava keeps mentioning somebody said he was killed because of a tail light....he likes to say it to make a point, but clearly it wasn't said. I asked him to quote it but of course he wouldn't. My saying this was because of my incident in Madison and the one in Cullman I posted on this forum about around 4 or 5 months ago....but keep saying I said that, it makes great talk for a soap box

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"Respect for authority" raises a few immediate questions if it is to be discussed. First, what is the authority, and what does it represent? Second, is it considered to be worthy of respect? The second question is where perception becomes important, and I addressed this indirectly in a previous post.

As I said previously, I think most poor people look at the police as the front door to what they see as a defunct and possibly corrupt criminal justice system. To a poor person, being arrested can be validly considered to be synonymous with convicted. They lack the means to hire an attorney that will vigorously defend them, and representing yourself in a modern court is about as effective toward proving your innocence or having yourself heard as simply pleading guilty. Meanwhile, the time they have spent in jail pending trial (since they could not afford bond) has done nothing but fester frustration with the criminal justice system that sticks with them after they have served whatever sentence they were given or paid whatever fines. That frustration spreads quickly among people that have either experienced the same thing themselves, or known someone that did. Those fines are also a source of hardship to those that are poor; they carry the penalty of further incarceration if unpaid, and it does not matter if you are capable of paying them or not.

Whether we agree or disagree with that perception is irrelevant. It is real, and it must be dealt with if progress is to be made. While it may seem like the obvious answer is addressing "respect for authority", that is impossible to address without first addressing why the lack of said respect exists.

Outstanding points and I agree in total. Can we also agree this is an educational issue? And if so, where does the education begin?
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Sorry, but while the issue of respecting authority is a legitimate issue, it's not central.

Like everyone else, I don't know any of the details - did the victim have a history with this cop? Was he mentally stable at the time? What did the cop say to him?

But my point is this is not about appropriate submission to authority, it's about cops using way more force than necessary to deal with the particular situation.

You don't shoot someone down for running from you at a traffic stop.

In a perfect world, everyone the cops stopped would be sane and rational and not carrying emotional baggage. I wouldn't even occur to them to run.

In a perfect world 'psychopaths' (ASPD) wouldn't exist. But they do. Perhaps 1 to 3 % of the population. They are attracted to positions that grant them authority, so you would naturally expect the rate of sociopaths in LEO to be higher than the general population.

What we need is a paradigm shift in the attitudes of some LEO officers and departments. We also need to identify and weed out the sociopaths. Perhaps body cams will help achieve that.

We agree for the most part. It still seems you are trying to dismiss authority and respect. Maybe I am mistaken. IDK.

I said "....the issue of respecting authority is a legitimate issue.."

That doesn't sound to me like I am trying to "dismiss" it.

True. You also ended by saying "it's not central." That could be taken as unimportant or not of importance. Thus my comment "IDK" as in, I can't read your mind.
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"Respect for authority" raises a few immediate questions if it is to be discussed. First, what is the authority, and what does it represent? Second, is it considered to be worthy of respect? The second question is where perception becomes important, and I addressed this indirectly in a previous post.

As I said previously, I think most poor people look at the police as the front door to what they see as a defunct and possibly corrupt criminal justice system. To a poor person, being arrested can be validly considered to be synonymous with convicted. They lack the means to hire an attorney that will vigorously defend them, and representing yourself in a modern court is about as effective toward proving your innocence or having yourself heard as simply pleading guilty. Meanwhile, the time they have spent in jail pending trial (since they could not afford bond) has done nothing but fester frustration with the criminal justice system that sticks with them after they have served whatever sentence they were given or paid whatever fines. That frustration spreads quickly among people that have either experienced the same thing themselves, or known someone that did. Those fines are also a source of hardship to those that are poor; they carry the penalty of further incarceration if unpaid, and it does not matter if you are capable of paying them or not.

Whether we agree or disagree with that perception is irrelevant. It is real, and it must be dealt with if progress is to be made. While it may seem like the obvious answer is addressing "respect for authority", that is impossible to address without first addressing why the lack of said respect exists.

Outstanding points and I agree in total. Can we also agree this is an educational issue? And if so, where does the education begin?

That depends entirely on how you define "educational issue". I tend to think it is a systemic issue. The War on Drugs has given us nothing more than a high incarceration rate, and it leads the criminal justice system to concentrate on poor communities, where drugs can often be found with minimal effort. Finding drugs among the poor equals convictions, and convictions equal positive exposure for law enforcement and prosecutors. Does that end up with the police being perceived as a positive force among those communities, or does it end up with the police being perceived as a predatory element by those communities?

There is no one simple answer to this, just as there is no single element in the chain that can be isolated as having brought us here. It's not the police's fault, and it isn't the people's fault. The criminal justice system is nothing more than another symptom of the bureaucracy that people like to joke about when it involves a federal agency of some sort. If you want justice instead of being a number, you best have money. If you lack money, you best come to terms with that number. As the front end to that system, the police are easy to blame. When someone fights back for whatever reason, in whatever fashion, they also become easy to blame.

Meanwhile, in the "land of the free", roadblocks have become both normal and accepted. Police stopping anyone is considered acceptable as long as you "comply" and simply deal with minor inconvenience. The conversation shifts to "respecting authority". Last time I looked, we were second only to Seychelles with regard to incarceration rate. Were the people that signed the Declaration of Independence "respecting authority"? Were they more suspicious of the people, or government, and by extension, the police? I frequently think the United States could best be defined as the country that started off with the question of "why should we comply?"

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"Respect for authority" raises a few immediate questions if it is to be discussed. First, what is the authority, and what does it represent? Second, is it considered to be worthy of respect? The second question is where perception becomes important, and I addressed this indirectly in a previous post.

As I said previously, I think most poor people look at the police as the front door to what they see as a defunct and possibly corrupt criminal justice system. To a poor person, being arrested can be validly considered to be synonymous with convicted. They lack the means to hire an attorney that will vigorously defend them, and representing yourself in a modern court is about as effective toward proving your innocence or having yourself heard as simply pleading guilty. Meanwhile, the time they have spent in jail pending trial (since they could not afford bond) has done nothing but fester frustration with the criminal justice system that sticks with them after they have served whatever sentence they were given or paid whatever fines. That frustration spreads quickly among people that have either experienced the same thing themselves, or known someone that did. Those fines are also a source of hardship to those that are poor; they carry the penalty of further incarceration if unpaid, and it does not matter if you are capable of paying them or not.

Whether we agree or disagree with that perception is irrelevant. It is real, and it must be dealt with if progress is to be made. While it may seem like the obvious answer is addressing "respect for authority", that is impossible to address without first addressing why the lack of said respect exists.

Outstanding points and I agree in total. Can we also agree this is an educational issue? And if so, where does the education begin?

That depends entirely on how you define "educational issue". I tend to think it is a systemic issue. The War on Drugs has given us nothing more than a high incarceration rate, and it leads the criminal justice system to concentrate on poor communities, where drugs can often be found with minimal effort. Finding drugs among the poor equals convictions, and convictions equal positive exposure for law enforcement and prosecutors. Does that end up with the police being perceived as a positive force among those communities, or does it end up with the police being perceived as a predatory element by those communities?

There is no one simple answer to this, just as there is no single element in the chain that can be isolated as having brought us here. It's not the police's fault, and it isn't the people's fault. The criminal justice system is nothing more than another symptom of the bureaucracy that people like to joke about when it involves a federal agency of some sort. If you want justice instead of being a number, you best have money. If you lack money, you best come to terms with that number. As the front end to that system, the police are easy to blame. When someone fights back for whatever reason, in whatever fashion, they also become easy to blame.

Meanwhile, in the "land of the free", roadblocks have become both normal and accepted. Police stopping anyone is considered acceptable as long as you "comply" and simply deal with minor inconvenience. The conversation shifts to "respecting authority". Last time I looked, we were second only to Seychelles with regard to incarceration rate. Were the people that signed the Declaration of Independence "respecting authority"? Were they more suspicious of the people, or government, and by extension, the police? I frequently think the United States could best be defined as the country that started off with the question of "why should we comply?"

Really good points. Not a fan of our "war on drugs" either. Seems to me we should be targeting the big boys not some dude with a small bag of weed or a $10 rock. Makes no sense. I could be wrong, but I think the quota system in LE is a culprit. The end result on targeting the little guy is "cops are bad." If you were the little guy you'd feel the same I'm sure.

So, why should we comply? This gets to the heart of the educational piece I referenced. I think about the conversations I have with my children or those with my Little Brothers. And this is unfortunate, but true. You have no idea what to expect when you are pulled over by a cop. Are they going to be an ass or cool? I tell kids all the time just say yes sir, no sir, your right, I was wrong, I apologize, it won't happen again, etc. In no shape or form should you disrespect them regardless of how they act. Stay the course, obey their instruction and live to see another day. If that day is in court so be it. My father taught me this and it worked. I hope the kids I've mentored stay the course. My greater hope is for all kids to be mentored to stay the course.

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