Freddie Gray possibly had back surgery a week before his death.

[AUDub 11,147]

Skeptical . But the repeated & often use of the words " severed spinal chord " raises warning flags. I can't recall hearing an injury described so frequently & graphically as this one, yet no one knows what the hell happened ? Or how.

Why has there not already been at least a preliminary report?

Probably because they want to make no statement or release anything until all results are final.

That and it might be a good idea to let things cool down.

[cooltigger21 0]

It appears my decision to remain leery was a well-founded one.

Online reports are swirling that Freddie Gray had spinal surgery shortly before he died in police custody, and collected a payout in a settlement from a car accident. Those reports — which raise questions about the injury that led to his death in April 19 — point to Howard County court records as proof.

But court records examined Wednesday by The Baltimore Sun show the case had nothing to do with a car accident or a spine injury. Instead, they are connected to a lawsuit alleging that Gray and his sister were injured by exposure lead paint.

Paperwork was filed in December allowing Gray and his sister, Fredericka to each collect an $18,000 payment from Peachtree Settlement Funding, records show. In exchange, Peachtree would have received a $108,439 annuity that was scheduled to be paid in $602 monthly installments between 2024 and 2039.

In her documents, Fredericka Gray checked "other" when asked to describe the type of accident. She also said that the date of the accident was "94/99" and that she was a minor when the case was settled.

In his documents, Freddie Gray checked "work injury, medical malpractice and auto accident" as the type of accident. When asked to explain, he also wrote something that is unreadable. He also wrote something unreadable when asked if he was a minor when the case was settled.

Both cases were filed at the same time by a New Jersey law firm.

A judge dismissed the case on April 2 when neither Gray nor his sister appeared in court, records show.

Gray's death has sparked more than a week of protests in Baltimore including some that turned violent and led to looting.

Baltimore attorney William H. "Billy" Murphy, who represents the Gray family, confirmed that the Howard County case was connected to the lead paint lawsuit.

As children, Gray and his two sisters were found to have damaging lead levels in their blood, which led to educational, behavioral and medical problems, according to a lawsuit they filed in 2008 against the owner of a Sandtown-Winchester home the family rented for four years.

While the property owner countered in the suit that other factors could have contributed to the children's deficits — including poverty and their mother's drug use — the case was settled before going to trial in 2010. The terms of the settlement are not public.

The Free Republic website said Wednesday that Gray's "life-ending injuries to his spine may have possibly been the result of spinal and neck surgery that he allegedly received a week before he was arrested." The article also said the injury was a result of a car accident and cited thefourthesate.com as the source of information. The story did not cite any court records.

Free Republic has since removed the story from its website and could not be reached for comment.

Fourth estate just said he had a settlement but not that it was a car accident. They also said that it wasn't confirmed. Probably should have waited for full confirmation. That was not the ideal way to go about it. They must feel pretty confident though.

[cooltigger21 0]

Skeptical . But the repeated & often use of the words " severed spinal chord " raises warning flags. I can't recall hearing an injury described so frequently & graphically as this one, yet no one knows what the hell happened ? Or how.

Why has there not already been at least a preliminary report?

Probably because they want to make no statement or release anything until all results are final.

That and it might be a good idea to let things cool down.

Well yes I sort of thought that part went without saying but good to make sure. Thks Ben good pickup.

[Browning4AU 405]

MSM is part of the problem, but if true, I doubt the MSM will run with it.

OK. I don't agree, but OK.

As for the second part, he had a history of violent and non-violent crimes...18 times. Although, I guess that it's certainly possible that the mean ol' police were just picking on him.

My point is, there is NOTHING that points to malicious intent one way or the other aside from skepticism and the police record of a lifetime criminal. But since the MSM has run with these stories, what's the most popular opinion of the supposed police brutality narrative - particularly when it comes to blacks?

Hang on...you don't think a crushed windpipe and severed spinal cord would point to malicious intent? You think those are naturally occurring injuries in the course of apprehending a suspect?

I don't know what happened. I wasn't there. Again, I'll withhold judgement on the entire matter until actual facts come through.

My point is, there is NOTHING that points to malicious intent one way or the other aside from skepticism and the police record of a lifetime criminal.

There is the fact that we have a guy that suffered fatal injuries in police custody that quite possibly could have resulted from a not uncommon police practice. That's not "NOTHING."

But since the MSM has run with these stories, what's the most popular opinion of the supposed police brutality narrative - particularly when it comes to blacks?

I was challenging your contention that the media wouldn't run the story. Didn't exactly hide all the unsavory details about Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin, did they?

They most certainly did hide details about both. The "Hands up, Don't shoot" is make believe that the media over publicized, but did very little when the actual reports and facts came out. The media also admitted on a very obscure segment at a very random time that they edited Zimmerman's "911" call. I believe it was NBC, but I could be wrong.

MSM is part of the problem, but if true, I doubt the MSM will run with it.

OK. I don't agree, but OK.

As for the second part, he had a history of violent and non-violent crimes...18 times. Although, I guess that it's certainly possible that the mean ol' police were just picking on him.

:dunno:/>

My point is, there is NOTHING that points to malicious intent one way or the other aside from skepticism and the police record of a lifetime criminal. But since the MSM has run with these stories, what's the most popular opinion of the supposed police brutality narrative - particularly when it comes to blacks?

This just shows no matter what situation it will be ok with somebody

Never said anything was ok. Never said my view on the whole thing one way or the other. The only people I do have a problem with in this matter is MSM

[Browning4AU 405]

Another thing that is for one reason or another overlooked...Just don't break the freaking law and don't put yourselves in these situations.

I've put a lot of faith in my country, it's leaders, law enforcement, military, etc. I love this country. I hate to see these riots happen for whatever the reason. I hate to see people stomping on my flag in the name of "protest." If things are really that bad, nothing is stopping anyone from going anywhere else. No one will because everyone knows there is no better place than here.

Last thing, if there is misconduct by the officers involved, then throw the book at them. I'm not on anyone's side on this, but it's unfair to say all cops are bad just as it is to say all blacks are thugs or whites are racists.

[AUDub 11,147]

I don't know what happened. I wasn't there. Again, I'll withhold judgement on the entire matter until actual facts come through.

Get your hands off those goalposts!

They most certainly did hide details about both. The "Hands up, Don't shoot" is make believe that the media over publicized, but did very little when the actual reports and facts came out. The media also admitted on a very obscure segment at a very random time that they edited Zimmerman's "911" call. I believe it was NBC, but I could be wrong.

This after WaPo's fact checker came out and rated it 4 pinnochios. And actually, mainstream media was all over Today at the time the edited tape came to light.

Never said anything was ok. Never said my view on the whole thing one way or the other. The only people I do have a problem with in this matter is MSM

Then why bring up the poor guy's arrest record?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

I think we understand that if you break the law you're more likely to be in a bad situation with a cop. But cops should be able to use some discretion and use their heads too. There's a difference in how to handle a violent criminal threatening harm to the cops or innocent bystanders and how you handle a guy selling illegal cigarettes on the sidewalk. There's resisting arrest in the sense of running and there's resisting arrest by kicking, biting and throwing punches. The mere fact that you had to chase some guy is not reason to rough him up.

So yes, don't break the law. Then again, we've had cops shoot people who were unarmed and hadn't broken the law. So you can understand if some black folks begin to feel like "damned if you, damned if you don't."

[cooltigger21 0]

I also can see how things might look. Six and a half years ago we elected the first black man as president. I imagine they thought finally they were going to move up out of the situation they had been in for all these many years. Now 6 years later they are not better off and maybe even worse off than before. Whatever they believe is the cause of that they are still mad and angry and frustrated about things. They must feel like they're going to be stuck like this forever in these inner cities.

[AUDub 11,147]

I also can see how things might look. Six and a half years ago we elected the first black man as president. I imagine they thought finally they were going to move up out of the situation they had been in for all these many years. Now 6 years later they are not better off and maybe even worse off than before. Whatever they believe is the cause of that they are still mad and angry and frustrated about things. They must feel like they're going to be stuck like this forever in these inner cities.

I'm impressed by this show of empathy from you, CT.

[alexava 6,973]

I think we understand that if you break the law you're more likely to be in a bad situation with a cop. But cops should be able to use some discretion and use their heads too. There's a difference in how to handle a violent criminal threatening harm to the cops or innocent bystanders and how you handle a guy selling illegal cigarettes on the sidewalk. There's resisting arrest in the sense of running and there's resisting arrest by kicking, biting and throwing punches. The mere fact that you had to chase some guy is not reason to rough him up.

So yes, don't break the law. Then again, we've had cops shoot people who were unarmed and hadn't broken the law. So you can understand if some black folks begin to feel like "damned if you, damned if you don't."

i can think of TWO.

[alexava 6,973]

I also can see how things might look. Six and a half years ago we elected the first black man as president. I imagine they thought finally they were going to move up out of the situation they had been in for all these many years. Now 6 years later they are not better off and maybe even worse off than before. Whatever they believe is the cause of that they are still mad and angry and frustrated about things. They must feel like they're going to be stuck like this forever in these inner cities.

I'm impressed by this show of empathy from you, CT.

you mean how he blamed unemployment on the black POTUS?

[AUDub 11,147]

you mean how he blamed unemployment on the black POTUS?

No, the empathy part.

The profound sense of disappointment among inner city activists and communities he's referencing isn't unheard of.

[Browning4AU 405]

BB, I don't even know what "hands off the goalposts" even means.

You yourself said, "There is the fact that we have a guy that suffered fatal injuries in police custody that quite possibly could have resulted from a not uncommon police practice. That's not "NOTHING."

"Quite possibly" isn't definitive. Don't misjudge my comment by thinking I'm saying the guy dying is nothing. Understand I'm saying there is nothing definitive in regards to possible misconduct. Again, I'll wait until the facts come out. And "There is the fact..." that this guy was a career criminal who's been arrested for various crimes which is why I brought it up. That much is definitive. Crushed windpipe, severed spine...also definitive. Once again, I'll wait until the facts come out.

FTR, I never said that what happened isn't shady. If the cops did do something wrong, throw the book at them and you won't hear a peep or complaint from me. I'll be right there with everyone else screaming about how wrong it is.

Going back to MSM and Michael Brown/Trayvon Martin...Do you think the MSM did a good enough job to repair damage for "Hands up, don't shoot" and the edited Zimmerman tape? If that's the case then why do so many people still believe Brown had his hands up? Trayvon Martin's case is definitely tragic but doesn't belong in the same discussion as the police brutality narrative, but once again what do we know? Zimmerman has now been arrested for violent crimes since then. But if we aren't to judge others arrests in regards to one unrelated case, then I suppose his arrests since then get a pass as well?

To further the MSM's narrative on the whole thing, there have been plenty of peaceful protests in Baltimore, but the majority of what anyone sees is riots and looting. Why not show the good that's happening instead of the mayhem? How positive of an impact would there be if the only thing you saw on tv was people coming together? It is happening, it's just not getting it's deserved airtime.

I usually don't post in here and this is why. The majority already has their minds made up way before any facts come out.

[AUDub 11,147]

BB, I don't even know what "hands off the goalposts" even means.

You yourself said, "There is the fact that we have a guy that suffered fatal injuries in police custody that quite possibly could have resulted from a not uncommon police practice. That's not "NOTHING."

"Quite possibly" isn't definitive. Don't misjudge my comment by thinking I'm saying the guy dying is nothing. Understand I'm saying there is nothing definitive in regards to possible misconduct. Again, I'll wait until the facts come out. And "There is the fact..." that this guy was a career criminal who's been arrested for various crimes which is why I brought it up. That much is definitive. Crushed windpipe, severed spine...also definitive. Once again, I'll wait until the facts come out. FTR, I never said that what happened isn't shady. If the cops did do something wrong, throw the book at them and you won't hear a peep or complaint from me. I'll be right there with everyone else screaming about how wrong it is.

It means you warped your own argument when the conditions were met by your opposition. You started with an argument by assertion that there was nothing indicating malicious intent. Since Titan and I pointed out that there is plenty of strong circumstantial evidence indicating just that, you've changed it to an appeal to ignorance.

Going back to MSM and Michael Brown/Trayvon Martin...Do you think the MSM did a good enough job to repair damage for "Hands up, don't shoot" and the edited Zimmerman tape? If that's the case then why do so many people still believe Brown had his hands up?

Trayvon Martin's case is definitely tragic but doesn't belong in the same discussion as the police brutality narrative, but once again what do we know? Zimmerman has now been arrested for violent crimes since then. But if we aren't to judge others arrests in regards to one unrelated case, then I suppose his arrests since then get a pass as well?

HUDS extended beyond the mainstream media. It was a social media phenomenon, too. Don't forget what Mark Twain said about lies. The mainstream media has been very clear on the matter, like I indicated when I point out WaPo's factcheck giving it a failing grade, but it doesn't matter how clear you are.

Your point about Zimmerman makes absolutely no sense.

To further the MSM's narrative on the whole thing, there have been plenty of peaceful protests in Baltimore, but the majority of what anyone sees is riots and looting. Why not show the good that's happening instead of the mayhem? How positive of an impact would there be if the only thing you saw on tv was people coming together? It is happening, it's just not getting it's deserved airtime.

If it bleeds, it leads.

I usually don't post in here and this is why. The majority already has their minds made up way before any facts come out.

You obviously haven't met me. I go where the facts lead me and can maintain a healthy sense of skepticism all the while.

Came here expecting a fight, huh?

[Browning4AU 405]

I didn't warp my own argument. I never really even made an argument. I won't justify the actions of someone unless I've seen it with my own two eyes. But I'll still maintain an innocent until proven guilty approach.

My Zimmerman argument was a correlation to that case and my point regarding the criminal past of Gray. You brought up Martin's case to begin with.

HUDS was/is big on Social Media too, but social media is nothing much more than popular opinion. MSM most definitely assisted it growing legs.

If it bleeds, it leads = exactly my (MSM) point, doesn't it?

Expecting a fight, not so much. You go where the facts are, but you aren't very skeptical that the police may very well have a good explanation, even though no facts have officially been released?

Edit: The key word to my original post wasn't "NOTHING," it was "intent." And yes, I still maintain that I have seen nothing that proves any of the cops' intention to hurt Gray.

[cptau 169]

Skeptical . But the repeated & often use of the words " severed spinal chord " raises warning flags. I can't recall hearing an injury described so frequently & graphically as this one, yet no one knows what the hell happened ? Or how.

Why has there not already been at least a preliminary report?

Probably because they want to make no statement or release anything until all results are final.

That and it might be a good idea to let things cool down.

Well yes I sort of thought that part went without saying but good to make sure. Thks Ben good pickup.

There are at least local, state and federal investigations going on there. It would be good to wait for all of them to finish and see if they all match or not.

[cole256 17,043]

Another thing that is for one reason or another overlooked...Just don't break the freaking law and don't put yourselves in these situations.

I've put a lot of faith in my country, it's leaders, law enforcement, military, etc. I love this country. I hate to see these riots happen for whatever the reason. I hate to see people stomping on my flag in the name of "protest." If things are really that bad, nothing is stopping anyone from going anywhere else. No one will because everyone knows there is no better place than here.

Last thing, if there is misconduct by the officers involved, then throw the book at them. I'm not on anyone's side on this, but it's unfair to say all cops are bad just as it is to say all blacks are thugs or whites are racists.

I get that, but if we can say don't break the law in the first place can we not also use that logic and see the policemen don't need to use lethal force so freely? Can we not see how that played a major role in this? Most posters on this board haven't mentioned it at all

[Browning4AU 405]

Another thing that is for one reason or another overlooked...Just don't break the freaking law and don't put yourselves in these situations.

I've put a lot of faith in my country, it's leaders, law enforcement, military, etc. I love this country. I hate to see these riots happen for whatever the reason. I hate to see people stomping on my flag in the name of "protest." If things are really that bad, nothing is stopping anyone from going anywhere else. No one will because everyone knows there is no better place than here.

Last thing, if there is misconduct by the officers involved, then throw the book at them. I'm not on anyone's side on this, but it's unfair to say all cops are bad just as it is to say all blacks are thugs or whites are racists.

I get that, but if we can say don't break the law in the first place can we not also use that logic and see the policemen don't need to use lethal force so freely? Can we not see how that played a major role in this? Most posters on this board haven't mentioned it at all

How do we know that lethal force was used freely? We don't even know for sure what the police actually did. What if the men acted in self defense? If they did use it without appropriately using the escalation of force model, then like I have said many times in this thread, take it to them. As of now (in summary), the only facts we do know is a man is dead from injuries suffered while in custody, and it was his 19th time arrested.

Edit: And thanks for at least acknowledging that post, Cole. Others here think I'm here looking for a fight apparently.

[AUDub 11,147]

I didn't warp my own argument. I never really even made an argument. I won't justify the actions of someone unless I've seen it with my own two eyes. But I'll still maintain an innocent until proven guilty approach.

You did. The argument present was that there was nothing indicating malicious intent. Go back and read your own words. If they won't convince you, nothing will.

My Zimmerman argument was a correlation to that case and my point regarding the criminal past of Gray. You brought up Martin's case to begin with.

I brought up Martin's case as a matter of comparison regarding the MSM's behavior during the whole debacle, not to compare the criminal records of Gray and Zimmerman.

HUDS was/is big on Social Media too, but social media is nothing much more than popular opinion. MSM most definitely assisted it growing legs.

In many ways, social media has eclipsed old media. How much do you think this would have grown without a hashtag, or the Rams doing it, or our own Tre Mason celebrating a TD with it?

If it bleeds, it leads = exactly my (MSM) point, doesn't it?

Let's see, people torching buildings, looting and wrecking anything and everything in the general vicinity vs. people protesting peacefully. Which one would you lead with?

Expecting a fight, not so much. You go where the facts are, but you aren't very skeptical that the police may very well have a good explanation, even though no facts have officially been released?

I'd say the confirmed fact from the ME that he died of a broken neck is a big one. Familiarize yourself with Occam's Razor. I've made no blunt statements of fact, either way.

Edit: The key word to my original post wasn't "NOTHING," it was "intent." And yes, I still maintain that I have seen nothing that proves any of the cops intention to hurt Gray.

Your standard for "evidence of malicious intent" is very likely unmeetable if a broken neck and crushed windpipe don't meet it.. What would it take? Two or three bullets to the back of the head? Baton marks across his forehead?

[autigeremt 6,599]

Another thing that is for one reason or another overlooked...Just don't break the freaking law and don't put yourselves in these situations.

I've put a lot of faith in my country, it's leaders, law enforcement, military, etc. I love this country. I hate to see these riots happen for whatever the reason. I hate to see people stomping on my flag in the name of "protest." If things are really that bad, nothing is stopping anyone from going anywhere else. No one will because everyone knows there is no better place than here.

Last thing, if there is misconduct by the officers involved, then throw the book at them. I'm not on anyone's side on this, but it's unfair to say all cops are bad just as it is to say all blacks are thugs or whites are racists.

I get that, but if we can say don't break the law in the first place can we not also use that logic and see the policemen don't need to use lethal force so freely? Can we not see how that played a major role in this? Most posters on this board haven't mentioned it at all

Less crime, less force. It does make sense....

As for Mr. Grey, he should be alive today. Why not use a taser?

[cole256 17,043]

Another thing that is for one reason or another overlooked...Just don't break the freaking law and don't put yourselves in these situations.

I've put a lot of faith in my country, it's leaders, law enforcement, military, etc. I love this country. I hate to see these riots happen for whatever the reason. I hate to see people stomping on my flag in the name of "protest." If things are really that bad, nothing is stopping anyone from going anywhere else. No one will because everyone knows there is no better place than here.

Last thing, if there is misconduct by the officers involved, then throw the book at them. I'm not on anyone's side on this, but it's unfair to say all cops are bad just as it is to say all blacks are thugs or whites are racists.

I get that, but if we can say don't break the law in the first place can we not also use that logic and see the policemen don't need to use lethal force so freely? Can we not see how that played a major role in this? Most posters on this board haven't mentioned it at all

How do we know that lethal force was used freely? What if the men acted in self defense?

What could a man do to cause him getting his spine severed and a crushed wind pipe? Also go into that Stephen a Smith thread if you want to talk about waiting for the facts

[Browning4AU 405]

Another thing that is for one reason or another overlooked...Just don't break the freaking law and don't put yourselves in these situations.

I've put a lot of faith in my country, it's leaders, law enforcement, military, etc. I love this country. I hate to see these riots happen for whatever the reason. I hate to see people stomping on my flag in the name of "protest." If things are really that bad, nothing is stopping anyone from going anywhere else. No one will because everyone knows there is no better place than here.

Last thing, if there is misconduct by the officers involved, then throw the book at them. I'm not on anyone's side on this, but it's unfair to say all cops are bad just as it is to say all blacks are thugs or whites are racists.

I get that, but if we can say don't break the law in the first place can we not also use that logic and see the policemen don't need to use lethal force so freely? Can we not see how that played a major role in this? Most posters on this board haven't mentioned it at all

How do we know that lethal force was used freely? What if the men acted in self defense?

What could a man do to cause him getting his spine severed and a crushed wind pipe? Also go into that Stephen a Smith thread if you want to talk about waiting for the facts

I suppose without knowing anything about what happened....any number of things. What could a man do to get shot relentlessly while his hands are up and he was begging for his life?

[AUDub 11,147]

Another thing that is for one reason or another overlooked...Just don't break the freaking law and don't put yourselves in these situations.

I've put a lot of faith in my country, it's leaders, law enforcement, military, etc. I love this country. I hate to see these riots happen for whatever the reason. I hate to see people stomping on my flag in the name of "protest." If things are really that bad, nothing is stopping anyone from going anywhere else. No one will because everyone knows there is no better place than here.

Last thing, if there is misconduct by the officers involved, then throw the book at them. I'm not on anyone's side on this, but it's unfair to say all cops are bad just as it is to say all blacks are thugs or whites are racists.

I get that, but if we can say don't break the law in the first place can we not also use that logic and see the policemen don't need to use lethal force so freely? Can we not see how that played a major role in this? Most posters on this board haven't mentioned it at all

How do we know that lethal force was used freely? What if the men acted in self defense?

What could a man do to cause him getting his spine severed and a crushed wind pipe? Also go into that Stephen a Smith thread if you want to talk about waiting for the facts

I suppose without knowing anything about what happened....any number of things. What could a man do to get shot relentlessly while his hands are up and he was begging for his life?

The hell...?

You do realize we have evidence confirming the broken neck, right? This isn't equivalent to the Brown situation.

[Browning4AU 405]

It's not about the broken neck, severed spine, or crushed wind pipe. It's about how it happened.

[cole256 17,043]

I don't understand your question, and it's really not related as far as what transpired up to getting shot can be questioned. But getting shot can't. I'm asking what scenario, any would be ok for sustaining both injuries. But yeah you're right even waiting for the facts I guess they could say they thought they were pulling their pepper spray out and this board will say no harm no foul.