Crowe: Winning culture "not sustainable" with JUCO players

[metafour 4,969]

We didn't send them out because it is Juco offer week. We sent them out because our recruiting has gone down the toilet.

Yep.

The coaches are spooked so now they're hoping we can quick-fix the problem by plugging in some JUCO guys that can contribute right away. Rodney "JUCO" Garner is going HAM on the JUCO trails...its too bad that all the JUCO DL signees except for Fairley have been complete wastes. Two highly recruited QBs on the roster yet we're scrambling to find some JUCO kid because Malzahn/Lashlee can't develop a QB themselves LOL.

[metafour 4,969]

Bammer started and maintained their run using juco players...

Their first full class under Saban included Julio Jones, Mark Barron, Courtney Upshaw, Donta Hightower, Mark Ingram, Barrett Jones, Marcel Dareus: all guys from HS who wound up to be star players. Only Terrence Cody was a JUCO fill-in. Their next class included guys like DJ Fluker, Dre Kirkpatrick, Trent Richardson, AJ McCarron, Eddie Lacy, Chance Warmack, etc, etc, etc.

They have used JUCO's to fill holes, but their teams are always carried by HS signees who are developed and live up to their recruiting hype.

[McLoofus 35,182]

I know there may be cases that disprove each theory, but I think it would possibly be an issue if your leaders and top performers were consistently JUCO or transfers. At some point, you have to grow leaders from within. I'm not sure the percentages matter as much as who they are and what they are doing. Maybe I'm not making sense...

When was the last quarterback to successfully start for Auburn that wasn't a transfer? Brandon Cox in '07? No, I'm not going to count Trotter in '11. Have we gone 8 years without developing an SEC caliber QB without bringing someone in? Who's our best defensive player seeing the field consistently? Blake Countess, a transfer. WR? Before his dismissal, talent wise it was Duke, a transfer. I get that transfers can and maybe even should play a big role, but at what point do you look at the situation and say, maybe Auburn has a development issue? We can keep ourselves competitive and afloat with JUCO's, or we can figure out how to actually develop a team. As many on here stated before, a majority of our recruiting focus is in HS, and that's where most of our offers are. So why isn't that avenue producing more results?

I don't have issues with any of the transfer situations except the one at the most important position of the field. To date, Gus Malzahn has never successfully developed a high school QB. It's scary to me.

[auburn4ever 1,266]

I strongly disagree with Crowe. A lot of teams like uat, GA, FLA, UT and many others do very well with juco players. JUCO players have helped uat win many championships.

[AURealist 2,185]

I know there may be cases that disprove each theory, but I think it would possibly be an issue if your leaders and top performers were consistently JUCO or transfers. At some point, you have to grow leaders from within. I'm not sure the percentages matter as much as who they are and what they are doing. Maybe I'm not making sense...

When was the last quarterback to successfully start for Auburn that wasn't a transfer? Brandon Cox in '07? No, I'm not going to count Trotter in '11. Have we gone 8 years without developing an SEC caliber QB without bringing someone in? Who's our best defensive player seeing the field consistently? Blake Countess, a transfer. WR? Before his dismissal, talent wise it was Duke, a transfer. I get that transfers can and maybe even should play a big role, but at what point do you look at the situation and say, maybe Auburn has a development issue? We can keep ourselves competitive and afloat with JUCO's, or we can figure out how to actually develop a team. As many on here stated before, a majority of our recruiting focus is in HS, and that's where most of our offers are. So why isn't that avenue producing more results?

I don't have issues with any of the transfer situations except the one at the most important position of the field. To date, Gus Malzahn has never successfully developed a high school QB. It's scary to me.

B.. b.. b.. but.... Tulsa!

[AU Counsel 64]

Begs the question of why our roster has no legitimate QB coach on it...

[McLoofus 35,182]

I know there may be cases that disprove each theory, but I think it would possibly be an issue if your leaders and top performers were consistently JUCO or transfers. At some point, you have to grow leaders from within. I'm not sure the percentages matter as much as who they are and what they are doing. Maybe I'm not making sense...

When was the last quarterback to successfully start for Auburn that wasn't a transfer? Brandon Cox in '07? No, I'm not going to count Trotter in '11. Have we gone 8 years without developing an SEC caliber QB without bringing someone in? Who's our best defensive player seeing the field consistently? Blake Countess, a transfer. WR? Before his dismissal, talent wise it was Duke, a transfer. I get that transfers can and maybe even should play a big role, but at what point do you look at the situation and say, maybe Auburn has a development issue? We can keep ourselves competitive and afloat with JUCO's, or we can figure out how to actually develop a team. As many on here stated before, a majority of our recruiting focus is in HS, and that's where most of our offers are. So why isn't that avenue producing more results?

I don't have issues with any of the transfer situations except the one at the most important position of the field. To date, Gus Malzahn has never successfully developed a high school QB. It's scary to me.

B.. b.. b.. but.... Tulsa!

I know you're kidding, but for anybody who doesn't know that, he inherited a 4-year starting senior his first year, and the guy who backed him up all but his first year for the 2nd. Aplin was a senior in '12, too, if I'm not mistaken.

[IronMan70 3,277]

The decision on when to get a JUCO pretty much takes care of itself. In your 2 deep, if you don't already have a player that is capable of handling a key position, you better get one. The reason as to why you don't already have a player on the roster is another issue.

Just an observation but, a more direct cause of why programs aren't able to sustain a winning culture, is whether or not they keep changing head coaches.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Begs the question of why our roster has no legitimate QB coach on it...

The argument could be made that Dameyune Craig is a legitimate QB coach. At least two QB's he coached went in the first round. I'm really not sure why Lashlee is the QB coach instead of Craig, as that seems like an obvious choice to me. My only guess has been that Lashlee is the QB coach for the same reason that he's the OC, because his long experience with Gus gives him a better idea of what Gus wants.

[wareagleguy 1,393]

Begs the question of why our roster has no legitimate QB coach on it...

The argument could be made that Dameyune Craig is a legitimate QB coach. At least two QB's he coached went in the first round. I'm really not sure why Lashlee is the QB coach instead of Craig, as that seems like an obvious choice to me. My only guess has been that Lashlee is the QB coach for the same reason that he's the OC, because his long experience with Gus gives him a better idea of what Gus wants.

Exactly what I was thinking. It's not that we don't have one on staff, it's just that he isn't coaching QBs!

[Tiger 8,819]

I'd love for Craig to switch to QBs after this year and Lashlee do off the field stuff lol

[homersapien 11,366]

I'm confused.

I'm OK with a few juco signees, but haven't we had respectable recruiting classes for the last three years? Isn't the real issue development?

[metafour 4,969]

The argument could be made that Dameyune Craig is a legitimate QB coach. At least two QB's he coached went in the first round. I'm really not sure why Lashlee is the QB coach instead of Craig, as that seems like an obvious choice to me. My only guess has been that Lashlee is the QB coach for the same reason that he's the OC, because his long experience with Gus gives him a better idea of what Gus wants.

I'm not sure how much credit Craig deserves for the QBs at FSU considering that that is Jimbo Fisher's offense and Fisher has been "QB Coach" at every single one of his stops since 1988. Craig had virtually no significant QB coaching experience prior to coming to FSU (just 2 seasons at Tuskegee); he was mainly at FSU to recruit just like he's mainly here to recruit.

[gman87 398]

I'm confused.

I'm OK with a few juco signees, but haven't we had respectable recruiting classes for the last three years? Isn't the real issue development?

Our recruiting for defense has been pitiful the last few years. We pull a few good guys and the rest are plan B, C, D, etc... We've done OK on offense but still struggle to land the star guys at their position.

[WarDamnAirForce 23]

I know there may be cases that disprove each theory, but I think it would possibly be an issue if your leaders and top performers were consistently JUCO or transfers. At some point, you have to grow leaders from within. I'm not sure the percentages matter as much as who they are and what they are doing. Maybe I'm not making sense...

When was the last quarterback to successfully start for Auburn that wasn't a transfer? Brandon Cox in '07? No, I'm not going to count Trotter in '11. Have we gone 8 years without developing an SEC caliber QB without bringing someone in? Who's our best defensive player seeing the field consistently? Blake Countess, a transfer. WR? Before his dismissal, talent wise it was Duke, a transfer. I get that transfers can and maybe even should play a big role, but at what point do you look at the situation and say, maybe Auburn has a development issue? We can keep ourselves competitive and afloat with JUCO's, or we can figure out how to actually develop a team. As many on here stated before, a majority of our recruiting focus is in HS, and that's where most of our offers are. So why isn't that avenue producing more results?

I don't have issues with any of the transfer situations except the one at the most important position of the field. To date, Gus Malzahn has never successfully developed a high school QB. It's scary to me.

B.. b.. b.. but.... Tulsa!

I know you're kidding, but for anybody who doesn't know that, he inherited a 4-year starting senior his first year, and the guy who backed him up all but his first year for the 2nd. Aplin was a senior in '12, too, if I'm not mistaken.

I think it's a legitimate concern. Agreed.

[keesler 5,924]

I'm confused.

I'm OK with a few juco signees, but haven't we had respectable recruiting classes for the last three years? Isn't the real issue development?

Development is the issue now, just like it was when Chizik was HC. Poor development of the talent on hand, poor training of fundamentals, poor play calling. "If" recruiting has gone down it's because high school players and their parents notice the same glarring deficiencies we fans see.

[Strychnine 1,802]

The argument could be made that Dameyune Craig is a legitimate QB coach. At least two QB's he coached went in the first round. I'm really not sure why Lashlee is the QB coach instead of Craig, as that seems like an obvious choice to me. My only guess has been that Lashlee is the QB coach for the same reason that he's the OC, because his long experience with Gus gives him a better idea of what Gus wants.

I'm not sure how much credit Craig deserves for the QBs at FSU considering that that is Jimbo Fisher's offense and Fisher has been "QB Coach" at every single one of his stops since 1988. Craig had virtually no significant QB coaching experience prior to coming to FSU (just 2 seasons at Tuskegee); he was mainly at FSU to recruit just like he's mainly here to recruit.

I'm not sure how much credit he deserves either.

[cole256 17,043]

Bammer started and maintained their run using juco players...

Their first full class under Saban included Julio Jones, Mark Barron, Courtney Upshaw, Donta Hightower, Mark Ingram, Barrett Jones, Marcel Dareus: all guys from HS who wound up to be star players. Only Terrence Cody was a JUCO fill-in. Their next class included guys like DJ Fluker, Dre Kirkpatrick, Trent Richardson, AJ McCarron, Eddie Lacy, Chance Warmack, etc, etc, etc.

They have used JUCO's to fill holes, but their teams are always carried by HS signees who are developed and live up to their recruiting hype.

We have only used juco's to plug players as well. Nose tackle is one of the most important positions on their D, and everyone knows how important left tackle is as well and they used juco's at those positions before. I'm just saying even the best teams use juco's

[metafour 4,969]

We have only used juco's to plug players as well. Nose tackle is one of the most important positions on their D, and everyone knows how important left tackle is as well and they used juco's at those positions before. I'm just saying even the best teams use juco's

No, we've used JUCO's to try and fill entire units (DL) as well as pivotal positions like QB...all because we either haven't been able to recruit well enough, or we haven't developed the HS players that we have signed. We are relying on JUCO's and other team's castoffs (Matthews, Countess) to fill nearly half our defense; that isn't "plugging one or two holes".

[AURealist 2,185]

We have only used juco's to plug players as well. Nose tackle is one of the most important positions on their D, and everyone knows how important left tackle is as well and they used juco's at those positions before. I'm just saying even the best teams use juco's

No, we've used JUCO's to try and fill entire units (DL) as well as pivotal positions like QB...all because we either haven't been able to recruit well enough, or we haven't developed the HS players that we have signed. We are relying on JUCO's and other team's castoffs (Matthews, Countess) to fill nearly half our defense; that isn't "plugging one or two holes".

I'm hopeful CWM is going to recruit players he can use and develop them to play well in his D.

Offense? Not so much...

[cole256 17,043]

We have only used juco's to plug players as well. Nose tackle is one of the most important positions on their D, and everyone knows how important left tackle is as well and they used juco's at those positions before. I'm just saying even the best teams use juco's

No, we've used JUCO's to try and fill entire units (DL) as well as pivotal positions like QB...all because we either haven't been able to recruit well enough, or we haven't developed the HS players that we have signed. We are relying on JUCO's and other team's castoffs (Matthews, Countess) to fill nearly half our defense; that isn't "plugging one or two holes".

Why did you quote one or two holes? You said that not me. Like I said EVERYBODY uses juco players not just us. Also I bet bammer tried to get some of the players we got as well. I also showed you the better teams also use juco and other teams cast offs at pivotal positions as well. Bammer, ole miss, uga.

Lastly we haven't tried to fill an entire unit off juco's you made that up.

When you sign players you sign them to play

[metafour 4,969]

I'm hopeful CWM is going to recruit players he can use and develop them to play well in his D.

Prepare for another JUCO influx this year. We've offered some ~4 JUCO DL the past few weeks, one of which just recently committed to FSU. We're not going to land the elite HS DL talent that everyone was assured we would land (LOL). Garner has been a huge flop; the man is well past his prime and we should have brought in some young up-and-comer.

[AU64 10,122]

I'm hopeful CWM is going to recruit players he can use and develop them to play well in his D.

Prepare for another JUCO influx this year. We've offered some ~4 JUCO DL the past few weeks, one of which just recently committed to FSU. We're not going to land the elite HS DL talent that everyone was assured we would land (LOL). Garner has been a huge flop; the man is well past his prime and we should have brought in some young up-and-comer.

You are probably correct about the number coming in.....but we need to realize that just about every JUCO comes with some baggage....which is why many/most of them are in JUCO. I don't know what our "hit" rate is with JUCOs but seems that we've had a fair number of guys who have not lived up to expectations. They are a quick fix when some HS phenom does not work out but I agree that it should not become a way of life.

[AURealist 2,185]

I'm hopeful CWM is going to recruit players he can use and develop them to play well in his D.

Prepare for another JUCO influx this year. We've offered some ~4 JUCO DL the past few weeks, one of which just recently committed to FSU. We're not going to land the elite HS DL talent that everyone was assured we would land (LOL). Garner has been a huge flop; the man is well past his prime and we should have brought in some young up-and-comer.

CWM is not happy with his players so I do expect JUCOs this year for the D. Probably next. I'm thinking longer term if the entire enterprise doesn't implode and Will is still here.

Elite prospects? None anywhere if Gus' offense remains this lame. But if he can get the O together, the D will get what it needs from HS. Maybe CWM will hire a DL coach who will teach those guys that part of playing the line is penetrating the line.

I think the O will always be fishing for JUCOs for the obvious reason that shall not be named.

[aujeff11 6,243]

I'm hopeful CWM is going to recruit players he can use and develop them to play well in his D.

Prepare for another JUCO influx this year. We've offered some ~4 JUCO DL the past few weeks, one of which just recently committed to FSU. We're not going to land the elite HS DL talent that everyone was assured we would land (LOL). Garner has been a huge flop; the man is well past his prime and we should have brought in some young up-and-comer.

So true and so sad.