2017 5* QB Tate Martell (Aggie decommit 5/3/16)

[mcgufcm 4,096]

I just have a problem with folks saying a jump shoot is a skill, not athleticism. For my money, that's crazy. Steph is hyper athletic. He is very quick. His handle is amazing. His ability to process space and gaps at full speed is amazing. He doesn't have a big vertical (dude can barely dunk), and he isn't the fastest guy in the world (not in the same weight class as Russ or Rose-pre-knee-injuries). Still, he's an incredible athlete, and it starts with his ability to shoot the ball from damn near anywhere.

[oracle79 3,569]

Neil Caudle did well in the Elite 11 QB competition.

/thread

[cole256 17,039]

I just have a problem with folks saying a jump shoot is a skill, not athleticism. For my money, that's crazy. Steph is hyper athletic. He is very quick. His handle is amazing. His ability to process space and gaps at full speed is amazing. He doesn't have a big vertical (dude can barely dunk), and he isn't the fastest guy in the world (not in the same weight class as Russ or Rose-pre-knee-injuries). Still, he's an incredible athlete, and it starts with his ability to shoot the ball from damn near anywhere.

A jump shot isn't athleticism. I can still shoot now and I'm nowhere close to being athletic as I used to be but I shoot better. There's not a basketball scouting report anywhere that says this guy is a big time athlete he can really shoot. That's why they even describe shooters as being skilled. But like I said the fact he can get his shot off against anybody really shows his athleticism.

And he is pretty damn fast, not rose, Westbrook fast but they are literally two of the most athletic points in the past twenty years....

[aujeff11 6,243]

Also, apparently Steph Curry isn't terribly athletic since he's mostly just a jump shooter, right?

No. He has just as much ability to drive and score in the paint whenever the defense over extends. He has really improved his dribble as well. He is very athletic. In practice one time he hit 94 out of 100 threes. that is athletic.

Have to disagree with that, being able to shoot is athletic. I know an old guy that goes to the Y in Florence that can out shoot many young guys in the area. Steph is athletic, it's his agility and quickness that are on a different level, hence him being able to create his own shot in any situation.....But if don't care what anybody says being able to win a qb comp doesn't prove you to be athletic, it means you're more than likely skilled but not athletic.

Wait, what? You disagreeing with me or Mcg?

[Barnacle 9,064]

Also, apparently Steph Curry isn't terribly athletic since he's mostly just a jump shooter, right?

No. He has just as much ability to drive and score in the paint whenever the defense over extends. He has really improved his dribble as well. He is very athletic. In practice one time he hit 94 out of 100 threes. that is athletic.

Have to disagree with that, being able to shoot is athletic. I know an old guy that goes to the Y in Florence that can out shoot many young guys in the area. Steph is athletic, it's his agility and quickness that are on a different level, hence him being able to create his own shot in any situation.....But if don't care what anybody says being able to win a qb comp doesn't prove you to be athletic, it means you're more than likely skilled but not athletic.

Winning a QB competition doesn't mean you are the most athletic guy there. However, If you are invited to the top QB competition I the country, you are already an good athlete. That much as a given at that point.

[mcgufcm 4,096]

Jeff, I think you and I agreed earlier with the difference that you pointed out Steph's other athletic ability. I'm on board with you. I think shooting and passing and pitching are all forms of athleticism. I also think Steph is independently pretty athletic.

Steph isn't that fast. He's not Rose or Russ; he's no better than the third fastest PG in the state of California (Rondo is decidedly faster and D'Angelo Russell is a classic "athlete" that can run and jump with the best of them). Steph is quick. He's not fast.

[cole256 17,039]

Strike two, knock on Russell is he's stiff and not that athletic. Kyle Anderson for the spurs is nicknamed slo mo and he's a great ball handler but he's not athletic, Dirk is a great shooter but he's not athletic, draymon green may be the second most versatile player in the NBA he's not too athletic. Kyle korver is a great shooter he's not athletic, jj redick is a great shooter he's not athletic, Chris Paul isn't too athletic anymore great ball handler. Once again d rose, Russell Westbrook, rondo are uber athletes....That's like saying Andrew luck isn't a great athlete he can't run like cam and Russell Wilson....

You're right as far as saying Steph greatest asset is his quickness but you're crazy if you don't think Steph is fast. Also John Stockton, magic Johnson, and Steve Nash are the greatest passers none were known as being athletic

[cole256 17,039]

Also, apparently Steph Curry isn't terribly athletic since he's mostly just a jump shooter, right?

No. He has just as much ability to drive and score in the paint whenever the defense over extends. He has really improved his dribble as well. He is very athletic. In practice one time he hit 94 out of 100 threes. that is athletic.

Have to disagree with that, being able to shoot is athletic. I know an old guy that goes to the Y in Florence that can out shoot many young guys in the area. Steph is athletic, it's his agility and quickness that are on a different level, hence him being able to create his own shot in any situation.....But if don't care what anybody says being able to win a qb comp doesn't prove you to be athletic, it means you're more than likely skilled but not athletic.

Winning a QB competition doesn't mean you are the most athletic guy there. However, If you are invited to the top QB competition I the country, you are already an good athlete. That much as a given at that point.

Why? How is that a given. It's given you're an athlete, not athletic...every guy that plays qb isn't athletic

[Barnacle 9,064]

Also, apparently Steph Curry isn't terribly athletic since he's mostly just a jump shooter, right?

No. He has just as much ability to drive and score in the paint whenever the defense over extends. He has really improved his dribble as well. He is very athletic. In practice one time he hit 94 out of 100 threes. that is athletic.

Have to disagree with that, being able to shoot is athletic. I know an old guy that goes to the Y in Florence that can out shoot many young guys in the area. Steph is athletic, it's his agility and quickness that are on a different level, hence him being able to create his own shot in any situation.....But if don't care what anybody says being able to win a qb comp doesn't prove you to be athletic, it means you're more than likely skilled but not athletic.

Winning a QB competition doesn't mean you are the most athletic guy there. However, If you are invited to the top QB competition I the country, you are already an good athlete. That much as a given at that point.

Why? How is that a given. It's given you're an athlete, not athletic...every guy that plays qb isn't athletic

Every guy that plays QB at that level is athletic, yes. You simply cannot get to that point without being athletic. I don't know how anyone could possibly dispute that.

[cole256 17,039]

Also, apparently Steph Curry isn't terribly athletic since he's mostly just a jump shooter, right?

No. He has just as much ability to drive and score in the paint whenever the defense over extends. He has really improved his dribble as well. He is very athletic. In practice one time he hit 94 out of 100 threes. that is athletic.

Have to disagree with that, being able to shoot is athletic. I know an old guy that goes to the Y in Florence that can out shoot many young guys in the area. Steph is athletic, it's his agility and quickness that are on a different level, hence him being able to create his own shot in any situation.....But if don't care what anybody says being able to win a qb comp doesn't prove you to be athletic, it means you're more than likely skilled but not athletic.

Winning a QB competition doesn't mean you are the most athletic guy there. However, If you are invited to the top QB competition I the country, you are already an good athlete. That much as a given at that point.

Why? How is that a given. It's given you're an athlete, not athletic...every guy that plays qb isn't athletic

Every guy that plays QB at that level is athletic, yes. You simply cannot get to that point without being athletic. I don't know how anyone could possibly dispute that.

I don't know how you could even come to that conclusion and say it's not disputable....one of the funniest things I've ever heard....

[mcgufcm 4,096]

Did you just say Magic Johnson is not known for being athletic? That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard in my life.

[cole256 17,039]

That's absolutely what I said....magic Johnson wasn't known for his athleticism, but you just called Russell a classic athlete so what you consider to be an athlete I assume everybody that plays a sport is athletic

[Barnacle 9,064]

Also, apparently Steph Curry isn't terribly athletic since he's mostly just a jump shooter, right?

No. He has just as much ability to drive and score in the paint whenever the defense over extends. He has really improved his dribble as well. He is very athletic. In practice one time he hit 94 out of 100 threes. that is athletic.

Have to disagree with that, being able to shoot is athletic. I know an old guy that goes to the Y in Florence that can out shoot many young guys in the area. Steph is athletic, it's his agility and quickness that are on a different level, hence him being able to create his own shot in any situation.....But if don't care what anybody says being able to win a qb comp doesn't prove you to be athletic, it means you're more than likely skilled but not athletic.

Winning a QB competition doesn't mean you are the most athletic guy there. However, If you are invited to the top QB competition I the country, you are already an good athlete. That much as a given at that point.

Why? How is that a given. It's given you're an athlete, not athletic...every guy that plays qb isn't athletic

Every guy that plays QB at that level is athletic, yes. You simply cannot get to that point without being athletic. I don't know how anyone could possibly dispute that.

I don't know how you could even come to that conclusion and say it's not disputable....one of the funniest things I've ever heard....

Ok. I mean, if you have something that can actually dispute that I would love to hear it. We are talking about the top 1% of HS quarterback talent in the country. It's simply not possible to play football at that level without being a superb athlete. Maybe you don't understand the position well. I don't mean that as an insult, Cole. I played it for 8 years, and was a very good athlete in high school, but I wasn't even close to that level.

[cole256 17,039]

If I used your logic then that means that there are no people in the NFL that's not athletic....Peyton and Eli hasn't every been athletic....they won super bowls. There are kids in that elite 11 that aren't even accurate throwing the ball...

[Barnacle 9,064]

If I used your logic then that means that there are no people in the NFL that's not athletic....Peyton and Eli hasn't every been athletic....they won super bowls

You don't think Peyton and Eli are athletic? Maybe you and I have differing definitions of what it means to be athletic. They may be "less athletic" than other players and quarterbacks in the league, but they are still both incredible athletes. I think it's kind of a lofty standard for someone to only be considered athletic in comparison to the top <1% of all athletes (professionals). Using that logic, than almost no one outside professional athletics could ever be considered athletic at all. I doubt there is one person in the NFL who isn't athletic, even among kickers, who mostly come from soccer backgrounds. Few athletes grow up specializing in only one thing (like kicking footballs). The vast majority grew up being very good at multiple sports before specializing in the one they were the best at, or had the best chance to excel in.

I would bet that there aren't many sports that either of the two Mannings haven't excelled at in their lives. I consider athletic to mean the ability to use a core set of athletic traits (coordination, strength, agility, etc.) to easily excel at any number of sports or athletic activities, relative to the average person.

[cole256 17,039]

Ok, there you have it, you think everybody is athletic so yeah of course EVERY qb you see is athletic

[Barnacle 9,064]

Ok, there you have it, you think everybody is athletic so yeah of course EVERY qb you see is athletic

Clearly, I don't believe that everyone is athletic. I believe that if you possess exceptional athletic traits that allow you excel at most athletic activities, relative to the population at large, then you are athletic. That excludes most of the population.

Now of that maybe 20% of the population you've got the top .25% that are playing traditional professional sports. It's not possible to get to those places without exceptional athletic skill (balance, coordination, speed, agility, strength, etc.) To play quarterback professionally, or even to compete for division one scholarships you have to be well above average in most of those categories, hence making you athletic.

I don't understand why you are being so condescending either. Just having a conversation...

Also I never said that every QB is athletic. I said that every Elite 11 quarterback is athletic, seeing that they are the cream of the crop.

[mcgufcm 4,096]

cole, yes. Every person in the NBA or the NFL is athletic. Do you know how many people play sports every year? Do you know how many of them are culled between junior high and high school? Do you know how many of those are culled between their diploma and the start of college? Do you know how few are able to make the jump from college to professional sports? Every guy in either league is better than anyone you ever played with. I shared a court with three dudes that played SEC basketball. They were light years ahead of everyone else. They didn't come close to the NBA. I shared a baseball diamond with a guy taken in the 9th round out of high school. He was basically playing a different game. He never made it above Double A. I watched Freddy Milons and Jason Clark (I'm not big enough to risk my pretty face in football). Both guys were All-SEC, and one of them made the NFL. They embarrassed other all-state players.

Every guy that plays in the NFL is so much better than any normal or even very athletic person that it's almost silly.

Magic Johnson was athletic enough at 6'9" to play every position on the court. Literally. He did that in the NBA. Not in some high school game. The idea that he wasn't an elite athlete is laughable.

[Barnacle 9,064]

cole, yes. Every person in the NBA or the NFL is athletic. Do you know how many people play sports every year? Do you know how many of them are culled between junior high and high school? Do you know how many of those are culled between their diploma and the start of college? Do you know how few are able to make the jump from college to professional sports? Every guy in either league is better than anyone you ever played with. I shared a court with three dudes that played SEC basketball. They were light years ahead of everyone else. They didn't come close to the NBA. I shared a baseball diamond with a guy taken in the 9th round out of high school. He was basically playing a different game. He never made it above Double A. I watched Freddy Milons and Jason Clark (I'm not big enough to risk my pretty face in football). Both guys were All-SEC, and one of them made the NFL. They embarrassed other all-state players.

Every guy that plays in the NFL is so much better than any normal or even very athletic person that it's almost silly.

Magic Johnson was athletic enough at 6'9" to play every position on the court. Literally. He did that in the NBA. Not in some high school game. The idea that he wasn't an elite athlete is laughable.

Thank you. I thought I was taking crazy pills.

[Mikey 16,550]

Neil Caudle did well in the Elite 11 QB competition.

/thread

He'd almost certainly have done well at Auburn if not for the multiple knee injuries. He was an outstanding athlete.

[cole256 17,039]

Neil Caudle did well in the Elite 11 QB competition.

/thread :no:/>

He'd almost certainly have done well at Auburn if not for the multiple knee injuries. He was an outstanding athlete.

I thought I remembered him being pretty athletic before the injuries

[cole256 17,039]

cole, yes. Every person in the NBA or the NFL is athletic. Do you know how many people play sports every year? Do you know how many of them are culled between junior high and high school? Do you know how many of those are culled between their diploma and the start of college? Do you know how few are able to make the jump from college to professional sports? Every guy in either league is better than anyone you ever played with. I shared a court with three dudes that played SEC basketball. They were light years ahead of everyone else. They didn't come close to the NBA. I shared a baseball diamond with a guy taken in the 9th round out of high school. He was basically playing a different game. He never made it above Double A. I watched Freddy Milons and Jason Clark (I'm not big enough to risk my pretty face in football). Both guys were All-SEC, and one of them made the NFL. They embarrassed other all-state players.

Every guy that plays in the NFL is so much better than any normal or even very athletic person that it's almost silly.

Magic Johnson was athletic enough at 6'9" to play every position on the court. Literally. He did that in the NBA. Not in some high school game. The idea that he wasn't an elite athlete is laughable.

Since you don't know me you probably shouldn't speak too much much on what I know or who I played with or against....I look at your post about football and chuckle but there's not a damn thing you are even slightly close enough to tell me about basketball, that's for sure.

Yes plenty of guys that don't make it in basketball that were great and there is always two sides to a coin and plenty of guys that are in the NBA and shouldn't be as well.

You're silly to say every person in the NBA and NFL are athletic. I've already named plenty that aren't but I guess you'll just ignore it and make pretend you didn't see them. But you're just confused so it's not a big deal, you mistake being good at something to being athletic. You also mistake being versatile as being athletic. Lastly you mistake somebody being more athletic than you as being athletic.

Magic Johnson being able to play 5 positions didn't make him an uber athlete it made him versatile. He wasn't super fast, explosive, or agile. He was very, very, smart, creative, and skilled.

There's nothing you can do or pump up to make Kyle Anderson athletic. If everybody was athletic you wouldn't have scouts saying things like they said about Steph and his lack of athleticism would hinder him. Jimmer can shoot lights out but he's not athletic, couldn't guard anybody, wasn't athletic enough to create his own shots. Aaron craft was an all American but he wasn't athletic enough to play point in the NBA and couldn't shoot well enough to be a two guard....

I've played with Jamal Crawford, Devin Booker, Eric Bledsoe before. One of my best friends led Wichita state to the final four and put them on the map and he plays over seas now. I have helped two younger cousins become high level D1 prospects and another friend literally won the NCAA three point contest one year (2004 I think). So yeah I know talent and I know the grind

[mcgufcm 4,096]

Your comment on Aaron Craft is the point. "He wasn't athletic enough TO PLAY POINT IN THE NBA." In other words, he wasn't athletic when compared to the most athletic people in the world. That's the whole point. Aaron Craft is athletic, but when the bar keeps getting raised, you can convince yourself that he isn't.

You realize how insane it sounds to say that Magic Johnson isn't athletic, right? He's 6'9" and could play and defend every position on the floor. He could take the pounding in the post (strength). He could guard wing players and get his own shot against them (quickness). He could run the break for one of the fastest pace teams in league history (speed). Maybe if the bar is Russell Westbrook, Magic isn't athletic, but if the bar is the real world (7 billion people), he's in the top .00001% of the planet in terms of athleticism.

Same goes for Slo-mo Anderson as well. If the bar is Kawhi Leonard, he's not athletic. If the bar is UCLA, he's very athletic. If the bar is lowered even further to his high school team, he's an elite athlete. If the bar is lowered even further to the general population, he's basically an alien.

[mustache eagle 2,388]

IMO certain sports only have athletic players college and nba basketball being an example. I do consider Magic Johnson athletic.

Every pro tennis player, pro hockey player, pro soccer player, track, wrestling etc...

Certain positions are universally athletic - every college and NFL football player, with a couple exceptions. kickers and QB's are not universally athletic ... I do not consider Peyton manning athletic.

Then you have the sports that field both ...

Golf - Tiger yes, Daly no

I guess athletic is subjective ... To me it is running, jumping, quicks, speed, strength ... I guess mostly things that can be measured?

[AUbritt 611]

As I said when this conversation got started, it's obviously the off-season.

We've picked a good topic, since it's one that won't be settled. What does it mean to say someone is 'athletic'?

It's not completely subjective, such as whether spinach tastes good. That's something it makes absolutely no sense to argue about. However, we don't have an agreed-upon set of necessary and sufficient conditions for what makes someone athletic.

There have been some suggestions, however, in favor of and against certain characteristics. Versatility is one of the more interesting candidates. Unlike cole, who favors characteristics like being "super fast, explosive, or agile," some of us (like Barnacle and mcgufcm) suggest that versatility is a mark of athleticism. I agree that versatility is a mark of athleticism. It's not without reason that the decathlon is considered the greatest test of athleticism in all of sports. Jim Thorpe was declared "world's greatest athlete" after winning the decathlon at the 1912 Olympic Games in Stockholm in 1912. He also excelled at football, baseball, and basketball. Like Bo Jackson, Thorpe was also fast, explosive, and agile. Also like Bo Jackson, you encountered the phenomenon that athletes playing with and competing against Thorpe considered him to be capable of things they themselves were not. The truly great athletes are not only fast, explosive, and agile; they are also versatile; and they are also recognized by others -- especially by other athletes -- as clearly superior athletes.

Nick Marshall is an interesting case. He's clearly very athletic, which allowed him to excel at QB for Auburn then switch to playing DB for the pros. If we compare him to Jim Thorpe or Bo Jackson, though, I'm doubtful we'd be able to say that he's as athletic as they were.

This brings me to the last point. What is the proper frame of reference to use when calling someone athletic? If we compare everyone to Jim Thorpe or Bo Jackson, even great athletes like Nick Marshall cannot be considered as athletic. If we compare everyone to everyone, then clearly Nick Marshall is an elite athlete.

The fact is, we don't have -- nor could we generate -- a universally accepted set of criteria for what counts as being athletic. As I said, we picked a good topic for the off-season. That doesn't mean it's completely subjective (like spinach, which varies according to individual taste and can't be argued). It means that what counts as athletic is more like a question of aesthetics. We make judgments, and we expect others to agree with us, even though there is no set of objective criteria. It's a subjective universal matter (spinach is subjective particular).