PayPal bails on North Carolina

[SaturdayGT 719]

Would not an acceptable compromise be to have unisex facilities available? Biological, "cisgender" men and women can use facilities specifically for them or use unisex facilities. Transgender people, regardless of whether they've had surgery to alter their genitalia use the unisex facility or the facility of their physical sex (penises go to the men's, vaginas to the women's). That way no one is surprised. If you use the unisex facility you do so with full knowledge that there may be people of the other sex in there or transgender people in there. Adjust your modesty and your expectations of other's modesty accordingly.

I almost think the purpose of this whole thing is meant to be more about politics than humanity. Its brought up to funnel all those who do not like the idea of men in the women's bathrooms into a group, then bash them as anti gay or against human rights to weaken that side while gaining strength on their side. You know, separate the good guys from the bad. Its all about the greed for power. Its like that everywhere in politics. There's no compromise....

[Strychnine 1,802]

Would not an acceptable compromise be to have unisex facilities available? Biological, "cisgender" men and women can use facilities specifically for them or use unisex facilities. Transgender people, regardless of whether they've had surgery to alter their genitalia use the unisex facility or the facility of their physical sex (penises go to the men's, vaginas to the women's). That way no one is surprised. If you use the unisex facility you do so with full knowledge that there may be people of the other sex in there or transgender people in there. Adjust your modesty and your expectations of other's modesty accordingly.

I really don't have a problem with unisex facilities. In fact, I've long thought bathrooms should have been unisex in the first place. However, doesn't that make this whole issue quite burdensome and costly to anything with public bathrooms?

That said, I don't see the real necessity of either mandatory unisex facilities, or laws governing who goes to what bathroom. To my knowledge, transsexuals have been using the facilities of their sexual identity as long as they have existed. They dress the part, they act the part, and as far as they're concerned, that's what they are. Is a trans man that still has a vagina bothering anyone by being in a stall in the men's room? Isn't the same true for a trans woman with a penis in a stall in the women's room? Isn't a women's room basically the same thing as a unisex bathroom with multiple stalls?

Locker rooms are obviously a different concept, but I guarantee you that a trans woman with a penis is going to go to any length possible to prevent anyone from seeing it. As I said previously, she's ashamed of it, and quite self-conscious about it. I'd wager she's far more worried about you seeing it than you are about seeing it. I haven't known any trans men, but I suspect they're equally ashamed of their vagina. Until they have gender reassignment surgery, it's the constant reminder that they are anatomically not their gender identity.

Personally, I don't think a trans woman belongs in the men's bathroom or locker room, regardless of whether she has or had a penis. She's going to stick out like a sore thumb. The entire experience is going to be humiliating, awkward, and perhaps even torturous. I do not pretend to have an opinion on the morality of transsexuality, as it frankly makes no sense to me, and I've never cared enough one way or the other to learn more about it. I do know transsexuals are still human beings, and I have no desire to knowingly subject them to degradation or humiliation in order to use public bathrooms.

A move toward unisex facilities is a good idea, and I agree with you. That takes time, resources, and money. Transsexuals still need to use the bathroom in the meantime, and I cannot agree with requiring trans women to use the men's room.

[Auburn4life 24]

However, doesn't that make this whole issue quite burdensome and costly to anything with public bathrooms?

Yes, Big Time! When the ADA requirements started many businesses moved location, because it was cheaper than updated the bathrooms. There are lawyers who travel around and check building for ADA and threaten to sue. So their either update or move. In downtown Bham, I think it was Jim n Nicks was in a bldg that didn't have ADA bathrooms and lawyer threatened to sue. It was going to cost way to much to fix, so they moved location.

I don't see a need for laws, who is preventing transsexuals from entering male or female public bathrooms?

[homersapien 11,357]

However, doesn't that make this whole issue quite burdensome and costly to anything with public bathrooms?

Yes, Big Time! When the ADA requirements started many businesses moved location, because it was cheaper than updated the bathrooms. There are lawyers who travel around and check building for ADA and threaten to sue. So their either update or move. In downtown Bham, I think it was Jim n Nicks was in a bldg that didn't have ADA bathrooms and lawyer threatened to sue. It was going to cost way to much to fix, so they moved location.

I don't see a need for laws, who is preventing transsexuals from entering male or female public bathrooms?

Exactly.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Would not an acceptable compromise be to have unisex facilities available? Biological, "cisgender" men and women can use facilities specifically for them or use unisex facilities. Transgender people, regardless of whether they've had surgery to alter their genitalia use the unisex facility or the facility of their physical sex (penises go to the men's, vaginas to the women's). That way no one is surprised. If you use the unisex facility you do so with full knowledge that there may be people of the other sex in there or transgender people in there. Adjust your modesty and your expectations of other's modesty accordingly.

I really don't have a problem with unisex facilities. In fact, I've long thought bathrooms should have been unisex in the first place. However, doesn't that make this whole issue quite burdensome and costly to anything with public bathrooms?

Possibly. And it may be something that has to be phased in over time. You can either add a unisex restroom separately from the other two, or just configure stalls across the board and make both current restrooms unisex.

That said, I don't see the real necessity of either mandatory unisex facilities, or laws governing who goes to what bathroom. To my knowledge, transsexuals have been using the facilities of their sexual identity as long as they have existed. They dress the part, they act the part, and as far as they're concerned, that's what they are. Is a trans man that still has a vagina bothering anyone by being in a stall in the men's room? Isn't the same true for a trans woman with a penis in a stall in the women's room? Isn't a women's room basically the same thing as a unisex bathroom with multiple stalls?

Depending on the environment you may be right. If everyone shows a minimum bit of decorum and keeps all their business within the stalls.

Locker rooms are obviously a different concept, but I guarantee you that a trans woman with a penis is going to go to any length possible to prevent anyone from seeing it. As I said previously, she's ashamed of it, and quite self-conscious about it. I'd wager she's far more worried about you seeing it than you are about seeing it. I haven't known any trans men, but I suspect they're equally ashamed of their vagina. Until they have gender reassignment surgery, it's the constant reminder that they are anatomically not their gender identity.

Possibly. But then the more I read, the more I see that some trans people feel no need to "reconfigure the plumbing" at all. Like, ever. They may not express any shame or self-consciousness about it. They just expect everyone else to get with the program.

Personally, I don't think a trans woman belongs in the men's bathroom or locker room, regardless of whether she has or had a penis. She's going to stick out like a sore thumb. The entire experience is going to be humiliating, awkward, and perhaps even torturous. I do not pretend to have an opinion on the morality of transsexuality, as it frankly makes no sense to me, and I've never cared enough one way or the other to learn more about it. I do know transsexuals are still human beings, and I have no desire to knowingly subject them to degradation or humiliation in order to use public bathrooms.

A move toward unisex facilities is a good idea, and I agree with you. That takes time, resources, and money. Transsexuals still need to use the bathroom in the meantime, and I cannot agree with requiring trans women to use the men's room.

But you're pitting the rights of a very small amount of people against the privacy and safety rights of basically the rest of the female population to make this blanket accommodation. I just think something more than self-expressed feelings and wearing a dress and some makeup should be part of the criteria if we're going to allow this. Just telling cisgender girls and women to shut up and deal with it doens't strike me as wise or fair.

[channonc 466]

Would not an acceptable compromise be to have unisex facilities available? Biological, "cisgender" men and women can use facilities specifically for them or use unisex facilities. Transgender people, regardless of whether they've had surgery to alter their genitalia use the unisex facility or the facility of their physical sex (penises go to the men's, vaginas to the women's). That way no one is surprised. If you use the unisex facility you do so with full knowledge that there may be people of the other sex in there or transgender people in there. Adjust your modesty and your expectations of other's modesty accordingly.

Having done some advocacy work in SC, I worked in a group that involved some trans people from the community who were pushing for more "unisex" or "family" restrooms as those were the ones most trans, especially those in the beginning stages of transitioning felt most comfortable. Regardless, I still think bills like the ones in NC or MS are just unnecessary.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Titan, we are obviously from two different perspectives. Mine is that I don't think was a problem that warranted any legislation in the first place. Now that we've arrived at legislation, I don't think the correct answer is the costly one that subjects anyone (especially transsexuals) to obvious awkward and humiliating situations that would arise as a results of dictating which bathrooms transsexuals can use in the meantime. I think decorum is more likely to be shown, and business kept in the stalls, if trans women are using the women's room. The cisgender women and girls are much less likely to even notice a trans woman in their midst than the cisgender men are when a trans woman walks into the men's room. The trans women that I've known did not want attention called to the fact that they were trans women, leading me to believe that their intention in a bathroom is to use the facilities and then leave the room without incident.

I think requiring trans women to use the men's room, and/or mandatory unisex facilities, creates a bigger problem than any problem that would be resolved by requiring them to do so.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Irony alert:

Now this is funny:

Transparent

, the Amazon-streamed show about transgender acceptance, is having a disagreement on its set related to its new unisex bathrooms. Some crew members are reportedly upset about having to use the restroom in the same space as coworkers of different genders, now that both bathrooms are open-access. TMZ reports the story, adding that many are allegedly afraid to complain about the issue over concern that they’ll be labeled transphobic.

It’s like being a servant in Kim Jong-un’s palace. You don’t dare complain about anything, or it’s curtains.

Remember, almost nobody has problems with gender-segregated public toilets. We are having to do this stupid thing to satisfy about one-third of one percent of the population, and policy-making progressive elites.

I guess this wasn’t a no-comment post after all.

http://www.theameric...gender-toilets/

[channonc 466]

Honestly, I think we should move away from gender specific bathrooms all together, especially where there are stalls with doors. Europe already uses this model in most of the big cities. I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Honestly, I think we should move away from gender specific bathrooms all together, especially where there are stalls with doors. Europe already uses this model in most of the big cities. I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

So 99.99% of the world's population should be made to feel uncomfortable and told to get over it because a minuscule percentage of confused people won't feel uncomfortable?

[channonc 466]

Honestly, I think we should move away from gender specific bathrooms all together, especially where there are stalls with doors. Europe already uses this model in most of the big cities. I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

So 99.99% of the world's population should be made to feel uncomfortable and told to get over it because a minuscule percentage of confused people won't feel uncomfortable?

It's not so much about the transgender situation for me, it's really just efficiency. I will admit to plenty of times I've waltzed into the men's room because I really needed to go and the bathroom line for the women's room was very long and the men's room had no line. No one in there seemed to mind. If I were to do this now, I could be arrested. Again, if we have plenty of stalls with doors in the restrooms I don't see what the big deal is.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Honestly, I think we should move away from gender specific bathrooms all together, especially where there are stalls with doors. Europe already uses this model in most of the big cities. I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

So 99.99% of the world's population should be made to feel uncomfortable and told to get over it because a minuscule percentage of confused people won't feel uncomfortable?

It's not so much about the transgender situation for me, it's really just efficiency. I will admit to plenty of times I've waltzed into the men's room because I really needed to go and the bathroom line for the women's room was very long and the men's room had no line. No one in there seemed to mind. If I were to do this now, I could be arrested. Again, if we have plenty of stalls with doors in the restrooms I don't see what the big deal is.

But can you understand why many if not the vast, vast majority of women wouldn't want to share a restroom or a locker room with men?

[channonc 466]

Honestly, I think we should move away from gender specific bathrooms all together, especially where there are stalls with doors. Europe already uses this model in most of the big cities. I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

So 99.99% of the world's population should be made to feel uncomfortable and told to get over it because a minuscule percentage of confused people won't feel uncomfortable?

It's not so much about the transgender situation for me, it's really just efficiency. I will admit to plenty of times I've waltzed into the men's room because I really needed to go and the bathroom line for the women's room was very long and the men's room had no line. No one in there seemed to mind. If I were to do this now, I could be arrested. Again, if we have plenty of stalls with doors in the restrooms I don't see what the big deal is.

But can you understand why many if not the vast, vast majority of women wouldn't want to share a restroom or a locker room with men?

Again, if there's privacy areas, I don't see why not. At home, I share a bathroom with a man.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Honestly, I think we should move away from gender specific bathrooms all together, especially where there are stalls with doors. Europe already uses this model in most of the big cities. I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

So 99.99% of the world's population should be made to feel uncomfortable and told to get over it because a minuscule percentage of confused people won't feel uncomfortable?

It's not so much about the transgender situation for me, it's really just efficiency. I will admit to plenty of times I've waltzed into the men's room because I really needed to go and the bathroom line for the women's room was very long and the men's room had no line. No one in there seemed to mind. If I were to do this now, I could be arrested. Again, if we have plenty of stalls with doors in the restrooms I don't see what the big deal is.

But can you understand why many if not the vast, vast majority of women wouldn't want to share a restroom or a locker room with men?

Again, if there's privacy areas, I don't see why not. At home, I share a bathroom with a man.

Wouldn't you say that sharing one with your husband or a brother even is quite different from strange men you do not know? And even if you personally aren't bothered by it, can you understand why most women would be?

Plus, even if you can reconfigure a small restroom to put in a couple of stalls, that's quite a bit easier than reconfiguring an entire locker room/shower/sauna/whirlpool area to allow for privacy.

[channonc 466]

Honestly, I think we should move away from gender specific bathrooms all together, especially where there are stalls with doors. Europe already uses this model in most of the big cities. I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

So 99.99% of the world's population should be made to feel uncomfortable and told to get over it because a minuscule percentage of confused people won't feel uncomfortable?

It's not so much about the transgender situation for me, it's really just efficiency. I will admit to plenty of times I've waltzed into the men's room because I really needed to go and the bathroom line for the women's room was very long and the men's room had no line. No one in there seemed to mind. If I were to do this now, I could be arrested. Again, if we have plenty of stalls with doors in the restrooms I don't see what the big deal is.

But can you understand why many if not the vast, vast majority of women wouldn't want to share a restroom or a locker room with men?

Again, if there's privacy areas, I don't see why not. At home, I share a bathroom with a man.

Wouldn't you say that sharing one with your husband or a brother even is quite different from strange men you do not know? And even if you personally aren't bothered by it, can you understand why most women would be?

Plus, even if you can reconfigure a small restroom to put in a couple of stalls, that's quite a bit easier than reconfiguring an entire locker room/shower/sauna/whirlpool area to allow for privacy.

Not really. Again, I think we are way too hung up on sexuality in this country. Body parts and bodily functions are normal for both genders. I just don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm not saying we should have stalless showers or something, but merely suggesting that if there's individual privacy, who cares what person I see at the sink while washing my hands. (I don't).

[aujeff11 6,243]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

[channonc 466]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Not really.

I think you live in a different reality from most other people on this.

Again, I think we are way too hung up on sexuality in this country. Body parts and bodily functions are normal for both genders. I just don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm not saying we should have stalless showers or something, but merely suggesting that if there's individual privacy, who cares what person I see at the sink while washing my hands. (I don't).

Because it isn't just about that? I know many would rather not use a multi-stalled unisex restroom if one for their own sex is available in public. But it's not just restrooms. It's other kinds of facilities such as locker rooms, showers, saunas and such you might have at a fitness gym. Or the same at a YMCA where not just adults but pre-teens and teenagers change. You may think it's not a big deal, but to many women especially it is. And for some that wouldn't have a hangup about sexuality per se, they still feel safer not having to share such areas with unknown men.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

[channonc 466]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Again, we can just agree to disagree.

In traveling through Europe especially, I rarely encountered gender specific restrooms. The only time I did, it was at major tourist attractions like museums and such with many more international travelers. At local restaurants and things, most restrooms were unisex and shared sinks, etc. I wasn't uncomfortable. I can understand why someone might be, but again, I think it is due more to thinking about our bodies in a sexual way even in non-sexual situations. Quite frankly, bodily functions just don't equate with sexuality for me.

[homersapien 11,357]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Well, she is a woman. One of the people you keep claiming to represent.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Again, we can just agree to disagree.

In traveling through Europe especially, I rarely encountered gender specific restrooms. The only time I did, it was at major tourist attractions like museums and such with many more international travelers. At local restaurants and things, most restrooms were unisex and shared sinks, etc. I wasn't uncomfortable. I can understand why someone might be, but again, I think it is due more to thinking about our bodies in a sexual way even in non-sexual situations. Quite frankly, bodily functions just don't equate with sexuality for me.

And again, you keep wanting to narrowly focus on restrooms, which I contend would still bother most people and especially women - but it's more than just a restroom with some stalls that's affected here.

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Well, she is a woman. One of the people you keep claiming to represent.

And I contend that she is atypical in this regard.

[channonc 466]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Again, we can just agree to disagree.

In traveling through Europe especially, I rarely encountered gender specific restrooms. The only time I did, it was at major tourist attractions like museums and such with many more international travelers. At local restaurants and things, most restrooms were unisex and shared sinks, etc. I wasn't uncomfortable. I can understand why someone might be, but again, I think it is due more to thinking about our bodies in a sexual way even in non-sexual situations. Quite frankly, bodily functions just don't equate with sexuality for me.

And again, you keep wanting to narrowly focus on restrooms, which I contend would still bother most people and especially women - but it's more than just a restroom with some stalls that's affected here.

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Well, she is a woman. One of the people you keep claiming to represent.

And I contend that she is atypical in this regard.

On the other things (locker rooms and showers), if there are separate private areas then I'm totally fine. Saunas in most Scandinavian countries are done one gender at a time with strangers, but with friends and family all genders are welcome and everyone is naked. Yes, you could be naked at a young age with your adult neighbors in the sauna. Again, I contend it is our puritan-like culture that inhibits us. Naked bodies do not necessarily equal sex. You don't have to look, and if as long as there is private shower stalls and private bathroom stalls, what's the issue.

Someone who is transgender is likely to want more privacy than someone who is not (contrary to the way these bills lead you to believe).

[TitanTiger 20,472]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Again, we can just agree to disagree.

In traveling through Europe especially, I rarely encountered gender specific restrooms. The only time I did, it was at major tourist attractions like museums and such with many more international travelers. At local restaurants and things, most restrooms were unisex and shared sinks, etc. I wasn't uncomfortable. I can understand why someone might be, but again, I think it is due more to thinking about our bodies in a sexual way even in non-sexual situations. Quite frankly, bodily functions just don't equate with sexuality for me.

And again, you keep wanting to narrowly focus on restrooms, which I contend would still bother most people and especially women - but it's more than just a restroom with some stalls that's affected here.

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Well, she is a woman. One of the people you keep claiming to represent.

And I contend that she is atypical in this regard.

On the other things (locker rooms and showers), if there are separate private areas then I'm totally fine. Saunas in most Scandinavian countries are done one gender at a time with strangers, but with friends and family all genders are welcome and everyone is naked. Yes, you could be naked at a young age with your adult neighbors in the sauna. Again, I contend it is our puritan-like culture that inhibits us. Naked bodies do not necessarily equal sex. You don't have to look, and if as long as there is private shower stalls and private bathroom stalls, what's the issue.

Someone who is transgender is likely to want more privacy than someone who is not (contrary to the way these bills lead you to believe).

But who are you to tell people what they should or shouldn't feel comfortable with? It's fine if you and your family and your friends are all more open about such things. But taking your view on things and extrapolating that to the public policy arena is a different thing altogether.

And these bills don't "lead us to believe" anything about transgender people. They correctly assess what we know about sexual predators - they will look for and take advantage of any loophole or workaround you give them to gain access to facilites they don't belong in.

[channonc 466]

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Again, we can just agree to disagree.

In traveling through Europe especially, I rarely encountered gender specific restrooms. The only time I did, it was at major tourist attractions like museums and such with many more international travelers. At local restaurants and things, most restrooms were unisex and shared sinks, etc. I wasn't uncomfortable. I can understand why someone might be, but again, I think it is due more to thinking about our bodies in a sexual way even in non-sexual situations. Quite frankly, bodily functions just don't equate with sexuality for me.

And again, you keep wanting to narrowly focus on restrooms, which I contend would still bother most people and especially women - but it's more than just a restroom with some stalls that's affected here.

What a desperation argument. I don't want to be sharing a bathroom with an unknown woman. I don't want her to hear my business and vice versa. It's different when sharing the bathroom with significant others though, obviously.

Humor me) Can you imagine going on a date with some stranger and at the expensive date, y'all walk into the bathroom together and the woman tears up the bathroom from the "closed" stall while you were just trying to wash your hands. That would not only destroy the "mood," I'd be pissed that I still had to pay the bill.

If one of you says "well then just don't go into the bathrooms together," please advise me then how these unisex bathrooms are "not a big deal." It is a big deal.

Sorry not a big deal to me.

Key part of the phrase. And not one I'd want to base policy for everyone else on.

Well, she is a woman. One of the people you keep claiming to represent.

And I contend that she is atypical in this regard.

On the other things (locker rooms and showers), if there are separate private areas then I'm totally fine. Saunas in most Scandinavian countries are done one gender at a time with strangers, but with friends and family all genders are welcome and everyone is naked. Yes, you could be naked at a young age with your adult neighbors in the sauna. Again, I contend it is our puritan-like culture that inhibits us. Naked bodies do not necessarily equal sex. You don't have to look, and if as long as there is private shower stalls and private bathroom stalls, what's the issue.

Someone who is transgender is likely to want more privacy than someone who is not (contrary to the way these bills lead you to believe).

But who are you to tell people what they should or shouldn't feel comfortable with? It's fine if you and your family and your friends are all more open about such things. But taking your view on things and extrapolating that to the public policy arena is a different thing altogether.

And these bills don't "lead us to believe" anything about transgender people. They correctly assess what we know about sexual predators - they will look for and take advantage of any loophole or workaround you give them to gain access to facilites they don't belong in.

Ahh... so we are back to the real fear. Transgender = sexual predator. Or sexual predator uses transgender as an excuse to come in and assault. I would like an example of such a situation. And as someone stated upthread, this does not actually prevent sexual assaults in the restroom or anywhere else, and we already have laws where that is now against the law. And if this law is about stopping sexual predators, why are we assuming all sexual predators prey on the gender opposite of themselves? Haven't we had enough evidence (issues with Catholic priests and boys for example) to show that it can easily go both ways. Males can prey on males, males can prey on females, females on males, and (while admittedly less common) females on females. I'm not sure separate facilities really solve this situation at all.