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The Brexit Vote


AUDub

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I don't have a strong opinion on this, but my understanding is that the vote is advisory. If public opinion truly and significantly shifts between now and the next election, who knows?

? Are you saying that you think his vote was only for show, and is not binding? Dude, the people voted. They're leaving the EU. It's not that hard to understand.

I think it's happening regardless, but he's not wrong about the legalities:

http://www.businessi...g-brexit-2016-6

It's also my understanding there is a formal process for negotiating a member's exit that takes two years. Of course, this is a EU requirement and presumably the "Brexiters" would prefer to conduct such negotiations informally. But the remaining EU membership is unlikely to agree to that.

Bottom line, there will be some time period before the exit takes effect.

I am of the opinion that many of the exit voters hadn't really thought this through and there may be some second thoughts between now and when the separation becomes legally official. If that happens, I have no idea what the legal and political barriers would be for a "binding" vote.

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Speaking of mindless reactions, just look at how quickly the spinning has begun from the losers. Just 24 hours ago, the smugness of an assure victory abounded

- it was an emotional vote, the people didn't really know what they were doing.

- this was a victory for racism, bigotry, and xynophobia

- this was merely a suggestion, and can probably be overturned in the next election.

There is a lot of denial going on here, where as just as recently as a day or two ago, the polls suggested a 2 to 4 point victory for the remain. Now, as the results show a flip-flop in that result, Look at all the excuse making going on.

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Oh no what have we done?!

Always remember your vote counts people. Too late for buyer's remorse now.

That's what happens when you vote your emotions instead of your mind.

Isn't it enough to simply celebrate democracy? Decisions by the people, for the people. Bask in the beautiful democratic process. The people decide their fate not the big ECB. Isn't this what ICHY and others have been clamoring for? Process, not outcomes.

Sure! The people have spoken. I'd be the last to dismiss the results based only on my opinion. So let them bask in the beautiful economic bed they have made for themselves - for better or worse.

Do you think it's possible for the majority in a popular democracy to make a mistake?

Should we celebrate that mistake simply because it was created by a relatively narrow majority?

I think pure democracy is a wretched concept. All major elections are highly emotional. There will be pain, there needs to be. Recessions are good. That is the process of clearing malinvestment and reallocating to the good investment. The EU is unsustainable, our federal govt is unsustainable and central banking is unsustainable. The precedent of move to decentralization is a very good one for free, free-thinking people. If you've got all your money tied up in euros, sovereign debt or stocks, you might consider what they are really worth outside of the world of easy credit bailouts, 'cause that's coming. One way or the other. (Personally, I'd rather not go through a post apocalyptic dystopian experience.)

In other news ^TNX 1.567 It's only money.

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Oh no what have we done?!

Always remember your vote counts people. Too late for buyer's remorse now.

That's what happens when you vote your emotions instead of your mind.

Isn't it enough to simply celebrate democracy? Decisions by the people, for the people. Bask in the beautiful democratic process. The people decide their fate not the big ECB. Isn't this what ICHY and others have been clamoring for? Process, not outcomes.

Sure! The people have spoken. I'd be the last to dismiss the results based only on my opinion. So let them bask in the beautiful economic bed they have made for themselves - for better or worse.

Do you think it's possible for the majority in a popular democracy to make a mistake?

Should we celebrate that mistake simply because it was created by a relatively narrow majority?

I think pure democracy is a wretched concept. All major elections are highly emotional. There will be pain, there needs to be. Recessions are good. That is the process of clearing malinvestment and reallocating to the good investment. The EU is unsustainable, our federal govt is unsustainable and central banking is unsustainable. The precedent of move to decentralization is a very good one for free, free-thinking people. If you've got all your money tied up in euros, sovereign debt or stocks, you might consider what they are really worth outside of the world of easy credit bailouts, 'cause that's coming. One way or the other. (Personally, I'd rather not go through a post apocalyptic dystopian experience.)

In other news ^TNX 1.567 It's only money.

Well, in the long run we are all dead, so WTF? :-\

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I don't have a strong opinion on this, but my understanding is that the vote is advisory. If public opinion truly and significantly shifts between now and the next election, who knows?

? Are you saying that you think his vote was only for show, and is not binding? Dude, the people voted. They're leaving the EU. It's not that hard to understand.

I think it's happening regardless, but he's not wrong about the legalities:

http://www.businessi...g-brexit-2016-6

It's also my understanding there is a formal process for negotiating a member's exit that takes two years. Of course, this is a EU requirement and presumably the "Brexiters" would prefer to conduct such negotiations informally. But the remaining EU membership is unlikely to agree to that.

When you trigger Article 50 of the EU Constitution, a two-year clock goes into effect. But even that is likely negotiable.

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This going to be interesting. The UK has a great opportunity, but they have to play it right. Being the 5th largest economy in the world they have a strong hand. The EU needed them more than the UK needed them. I expect some blackballing a bit by the global crowd - including our current president (who should already be there discussing a one on one trade deal). This will hurt them and the markets in the short term until the rest of the EU has to admit they cannot live completely off of Germany.

UK has control of their own courts without oversight of the EU judiciary. They can make trade deals that suit them. They no longer have to play by the over regulation of the EU. The individuals have more power now without belonging to some distant bureaucracy.

First things first - the powers that be still have to approve the exit and there is A LOT of red tape to get through before they can be independent again. Think of it as if Texas gained independence and was suddenly a "foreign nation". There is a lot to set up and put in place.

They were the 5th largest economy in the world.

Have they fallen already?

They are falling as we speak.

There are other EU members ready to vote out. Germany and France have damaged the EU. Lots of their economies may shrink.

True. On the other hand, Scotland may leave the UK and remain in the EU.

I wonder if the EU would even want them. Scotland would lose much more than they gain by leaving the English. They might be allowed to remain in the Commonweath like Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

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Oh no what have we done?!

Always remember your vote counts people. Too late for buyer's remorse now.

That's what happens when you vote your emotions instead of your mind.

Isn't it enough to simply celebrate democracy? Decisions by the people, for the people. Bask in the beautiful democratic process. The people decide their fate not the big ECB. Isn't this what ICHY and others have been clamoring for? Process, not outcomes.

Sure! The people have spoken. I'd be the last to dismiss the results based only on my opinion. So let them bask in the beautiful economic bed they have made for themselves - for better or worse.

Do you think it's possible for the majority in a popular democracy to make a mistake?

Should we celebrate that mistake simply because it was created by a relatively narrow majority?

I think pure democracy is a wretched concept. All major elections are highly emotional. There will be pain, there needs to be. Recessions are good. That is the process of clearing malinvestment and reallocating to the good investment. The EU is unsustainable, our federal govt is unsustainable and central banking is unsustainable. The precedent of move to decentralization is a very good one for free, free-thinking people. If you've got all your money tied up in euros, sovereign debt or stocks, you might consider what they are really worth outside of the world of easy credit bailouts, 'cause that's coming. One way or the other. (Personally, I'd rather not go through a post apocalyptic dystopian experience.)

In other news ^TNX 1.567 It's only money.

More Austrian BS. What determines "malinvestment"?

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Oh no what have we done?!

Always remember your vote counts people. Too late for buyer's remorse now.

That's what happens when you vote your emotions instead of your mind.

Isn't it enough to simply celebrate democracy? Decisions by the people, for the people. Bask in the beautiful democratic process. The people decide their fate not the big ECB. Isn't this what ICHY and others have been clamoring for? Process, not outcomes.

Sure! The people have spoken. I'd be the last to dismiss the results based only on my opinion. So let them bask in the beautiful economic bed they have made for themselves - for better or worse.

Do you think it's possible for the majority in a popular democracy to make a mistake?

Should we celebrate that mistake simply because it was created by a relatively narrow majority?

I think pure democracy is a wretched concept. All major elections are highly emotional. There will be pain, there needs to be. Recessions are good. That is the process of clearing malinvestment and reallocating to the good investment. The EU is unsustainable, our federal govt is unsustainable and central banking is unsustainable. The precedent of move to decentralization is a very good one for free, free-thinking people. If you've got all your money tied up in euros, sovereign debt or stocks, you might consider what they are really worth outside of the world of easy credit bailouts, 'cause that's coming. One way or the other. (Personally, I'd rather not go through a post apocalyptic dystopian experience.)

In other news ^TNX 1.567 It's only money.

More Austrian BS. What determines "malinvestment"?

What determines dead wood?

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I don't have a strong opinion on this, but my understanding is that the vote is advisory. If public opinion truly and significantly shifts between now and the next election, who knows?

? Are you saying that you think his vote was only for show, and is not binding? Dude, the people voted. They're leaving the EU. It's not that hard to understand.

I think it's happening regardless, but he's not wrong about the legalities:

http://www.businessi...g-brexit-2016-6

It's also my understanding there is a formal process for negotiating a member's exit that takes two years. Of course, this is a EU requirement and presumably the "Brexiters" would prefer to conduct such negotiations informally. But the remaining EU membership is unlikely to agree to that.

When you trigger Article 50 of the EU Constitution, a two-year clock goes into effect. But even that is likely negotiable.

There's no mechanism for halting Article 50.

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I don't have a strong opinion on this, but my understanding is that the vote is advisory. If public opinion truly and significantly shifts between now and the next election, who knows?

? Are you saying that you think his vote was only for show, and is not binding? Dude, the people voted. They're leaving the EU. It's not that hard to understand.

I think it's happening regardless, but he's not wrong about the legalities:

http://www.businessi...g-brexit-2016-6

It's also my understanding there is a formal process for negotiating a member's exit that takes two years. Of course, this is a EU requirement and presumably the "Brexiters" would prefer to conduct such negotiations informally. But the remaining EU membership is unlikely to agree to that.

When you trigger Article 50 of the EU Constitution, a two-year clock goes into effect. But even that is likely negotiable.

There's no mechanism for halting Article 50.

There's also nothing precluding the negotiation of a subsequent extension.

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Oh no what have we done?!

Always remember your vote counts people. Too late for buyer's remorse now.

That's what happens when you vote your emotions instead of your mind.

Isn't it enough to simply celebrate democracy? Decisions by the people, for the people. Bask in the beautiful democratic process. The people decide their fate not the big ECB. Isn't this what ICHY and others have been clamoring for? Process, not outcomes.

Sure! The people have spoken. I'd be the last to dismiss the results based only on my opinion. So let them bask in the beautiful economic bed they have made for themselves - for better or worse.

Do you think it's possible for the majority in a popular democracy to make a mistake?

Should we celebrate that mistake simply because it was created by a relatively narrow majority?

I think pure democracy is a wretched concept. All major elections are highly emotional. There will be pain, there needs to be. Recessions are good. That is the process of clearing malinvestment and reallocating to the good investment. The EU is unsustainable, our federal govt is unsustainable and central banking is unsustainable. The precedent of move to decentralization is a very good one for free, free-thinking people. If you've got all your money tied up in euros, sovereign debt or stocks, you might consider what they are really worth outside of the world of easy credit bailouts, 'cause that's coming. One way or the other. (Personally, I'd rather not go through a post apocalyptic dystopian experience.)

In other news ^TNX 1.567 It's only money.

More Austrian BS. What determines "malinvestment"?

What determines dead wood?

Nature.

Economics, on the other hand, is a creation of man. (I am pretty sure the "invisible hand" was a metaphor.)

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"Why Britons voted for Brexit is a complex matter, not settled by adverse stereotypes. But why American conservatives support Brexit turns out to be highly tuned to adverse stereotypes. It is the same turn back to the clock to glory nonsense that animates Trumpism in the US. To that end, note that the biggest cleavage in the vote wasn't nationality or regionalism; it was age."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/you-re-funny

Interesting.

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Nature.

Economics, on the other hand, is a creation of man. (I am pretty sure the "invisible hand" was a metaphor.)

Nice. Since I believe that ethical design is as much an intertwined part of the universe as the "natural" one, economics and voluntary exchange (contract law) would follow. Didn't want to go there.

ICHY if you have a genuine critic of ABCT, I'd like to read in another thread. I can only learn more from well seasoned arguments and most critiques are loaded with fallacy.

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If MP candidates that run saying they will vote no on Brexit make up a majority, it's doubtful it happens. Three months is a long time for folks to decide what they really want.

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Another perspective:

This was the day the British people defied their jailers

TIM STANLEY

Tim Stanley 24 JUNE 2016 • 5:00AM

There were two referendums on Thursday. The first was on membership of the EU. The second was on the British establishment. Leave won both, and the world will never be the same again.

It’s impossible to overstate how remarkable this victory is. Twenty years ago, Euroscepticism was a backbench Tory rebellion and a political cult. It was a dispute located firmly on the Right with little appeal to Labour voters. It took Ukip to drag it into the centre of political life – given momentum by the issue of immigration – and slowly it has emerged as a lightning rod for anti-establishment activism.

Even so, the circumstances of the referendum were not ripe for victory. David Cameron only called it to hold his own party together; and once it was called, he decided to turn the British and global establishment against it. Out came the Treasury, the IMF, even the President of the United States to argue that Britain had to stay. This was textbook politics, how things used to be done – and it worked back in 1975 when the UK voted overwhelmingly on good advice to stay in the Common Market.

But this time the establishment consensus coincided with a historic loss of faith in the experts. These were the people who failed to predict the Credit Crunch, who missed the greatest economic disaster to hit us since the Great Depression. And we were supposed to believe them? Slowly the consensus came to resemble not just a conspiracy but, worse, a confederacy of dunces.

Even so – even as Leave pulled ahead in the polls – it was still impossible to think it could win. The murder of Jo Cox convinced me that it wouldn’t. I suspected that it would cement in most people’s minds a link between Brexit and risk: Leave forced this referendum, Leave created the febrile debate, Leave had to bear some responsibility for the air of chaos. Even I would’ve preferred the referendum to be cancelled. The whole thing made me feel sick to my stomach. There was talk of Leave support wilting and turnout dropping, while Remain was surging. Remain’s Project Fear evolved, inexplicably, into Project Tolerance. Now a vote for the EU was a vote for love. And if the British couldn’t be terrified into voting Remain, surely they could be guilted into doing it?

No. People wanted to have their say and they did. Up and down the country they defied the experts and went with their conscience. Labour voters most of all: the northeast rebelled against a century of Labour leadership. I am astonished. Staggered. Humbled. I should never have lost faith in my countrymen. Those bold, brave, beautiful British voters.

Why did they do it? That, we’ll pick apart in the next few weeks. I think that Leave genuinely ran the better campaign, more hopeful and upbeat. Immigration mattered a great deal – although one YouGov poll ranked it third behind democracy and the economy. It’s possible that voters grasped the essential point about this referendum better than we the commentators did. It was a vote of confidence in Britain. Should we run our affairs or should we delegate it to foreign bureaucrats? When I was leaving my polling station, I said to a chap: “I found voting quite emotional.” He replied that this was the day we got our freedom back. That’s how it feels for millions of Britons.

Not how it feels, perhaps, for Londoners or Scots. We’ve seen a new division emerge within our country. Scotland increasingly defines its politics as Left-wing and Europhile. London is simply a different country: the metropolis triumphant. The young may have overwhelmingly voted Remain, too – but, hey, they will grow older someday. The young who voted Remain in 1975 overwhelmingly voted Leave in 2016. In part, perhaps, because they didn’t like being characterised as ancient bigots by the Remain side. Top tip for winning future elections: don’t call the electorate “thick” or “losers”. It, er, turns them off.

What happens now? We drink. We be happy. We sing a song. Then we piece back the country and get on with the great project of building the British century. We voted the right way because we’re a nation with a sense of destiny. The world is ours now. Go get it.

http://www.telegraph...-their-jailers/

Clear; and simply well written. The smart people got it wrong; again. The people speak. Democracy is a terrible way decide the fate of a people or a nation...there's only one thing worse...and that's every other way to do it...
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Oh no what have we done?!

Always remember your vote counts people. Too late for buyer's remorse now.

That's what happens when you vote your emotions instead of your mind.

Isn't it enough to simply celebrate democracy? Decisions by the people, for the people. Bask in the beautiful democratic process. The people decide their fate not the big ECB. Isn't this what ICHY and others have been clamoring for? Process, not outcomes.

Sure! The people have spoken. I'd be the last to dismiss the results based only on my opinion. So let them bask in the beautiful economic bed they have made for themselves - for better or worse.

Do you think it's possible for the majority in a popular democracy to make a mistake?

Should we celebrate that mistake simply because it was created by a relatively narrow majority?

I think pure democracy is a wretched concept. All major elections are highly emotional. There will be pain, there needs to be. Recessions are good. That is the process of clearing malinvestment and reallocating to the good investment. The EU is unsustainable, our federal govt is unsustainable and central banking is unsustainable. The precedent of move to decentralization is a very good one for free, free-thinking people. If you've got all your money tied up in euros, sovereign debt or stocks, you might consider what they are really worth outside of the world of easy credit bailouts, 'cause that's coming. One way or the other. (Personally, I'd rather not go through a post apocalyptic dystopian experience.)

In other news ^TNX 1.567 It's only money.

Oh, good grief. Recessions are not good, nor do they have the magical restorative powers that libertarians wish to grant them. Instead, they are periods of foregone growth that can never be recovered. I agree that the EU is probably unsustainable, but our federal government and central bank are every bit sustainable. To think otherwise is to allow one's self to be enslaved by ideology at the expense of reality--a folly on which libertarianism excels.

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Another perspective:

This was the day the British people defied their jailers

TIM STANLEY

Tim Stanley 24 JUNE 2016 • 5:00AM

There were two referendums on Thursday. The first was on membership of the EU. The second was on the British establishment. Leave won both, and the world will never be the same again.

It’s impossible to overstate how remarkable this victory is. Twenty years ago, Euroscepticism was a backbench Tory rebellion and a political cult. It was a dispute located firmly on the Right with little appeal to Labour voters. It took Ukip to drag it into the centre of political life – given momentum by the issue of immigration – and slowly it has emerged as a lightning rod for anti-establishment activism.

Even so, the circumstances of the referendum were not ripe for victory. David Cameron only called it to hold his own party together; and once it was called, he decided to turn the British and global establishment against it. Out came the Treasury, the IMF, even the President of the United States to argue that Britain had to stay. This was textbook politics, how things used to be done – and it worked back in 1975 when the UK voted overwhelmingly on good advice to stay in the Common Market.

But this time the establishment consensus coincided with a historic loss of faith in the experts. These were the people who failed to predict the Credit Crunch, who missed the greatest economic disaster to hit us since the Great Depression. And we were supposed to believe them? Slowly the consensus came to resemble not just a conspiracy but, worse, a confederacy of dunces.

Even so – even as Leave pulled ahead in the polls – it was still impossible to think it could win. The murder of Jo Cox convinced me that it wouldn’t. I suspected that it would cement in most people’s minds a link between Brexit and risk: Leave forced this referendum, Leave created the febrile debate, Leave had to bear some responsibility for the air of chaos. Even I would’ve preferred the referendum to be cancelled. The whole thing made me feel sick to my stomach. There was talk of Leave support wilting and turnout dropping, while Remain was surging. Remain’s Project Fear evolved, inexplicably, into Project Tolerance. Now a vote for the EU was a vote for love. And if the British couldn’t be terrified into voting Remain, surely they could be guilted into doing it?

No. People wanted to have their say and they did. Up and down the country they defied the experts and went with their conscience. Labour voters most of all: the northeast rebelled against a century of Labour leadership. I am astonished. Staggered. Humbled. I should never have lost faith in my countrymen. Those bold, brave, beautiful British voters.

Why did they do it? That, we’ll pick apart in the next few weeks. I think that Leave genuinely ran the better campaign, more hopeful and upbeat. Immigration mattered a great deal – although one YouGov poll ranked it third behind democracy and the economy. It’s possible that voters grasped the essential point about this referendum better than we the commentators did. It was a vote of confidence in Britain. Should we run our affairs or should we delegate it to foreign bureaucrats? When I was leaving my polling station, I said to a chap: “I found voting quite emotional.” He replied that this was the day we got our freedom back. That’s how it feels for millions of Britons.

Not how it feels, perhaps, for Londoners or Scots. We’ve seen a new division emerge within our country. Scotland increasingly defines its politics as Left-wing and Europhile. London is simply a different country: the metropolis triumphant. The young may have overwhelmingly voted Remain, too – but, hey, they will grow older someday. The young who voted Remain in 1975 overwhelmingly voted Leave in 2016. In part, perhaps, because they didn’t like being characterised as ancient bigots by the Remain side. Top tip for winning future elections: don’t call the electorate “thick” or “losers”. It, er, turns them off.

What happens now? We drink. We be happy. We sing a song. Then we piece back the country and get on with the great project of building the British century. We voted the right way because we’re a nation with a sense of destiny. The world is ours now. Go get it.

http://www.telegraph...-their-jailers/

Clear; and simply well written. The smart people got it wrong; again. The people speak. Democracy is a terrible way decide the fate of a people or a nation...there's only one thing worse...and that's every other way to do it...

Yeah, better to have the dumb lead the way.

And really, get on with "building the British century"? Step one: Recolonize India, S. Africa, Singapore...... :laugh:

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It is funny watching liberals squirm as their gold standard crumbles.

"The young who voted Remain in 1975 overwhelmingly voted Leave in 2016. "

"Now a vote for the EU was a vote for love. And if the British couldn’t be terrified into voting Remain, surely they could be guilted into doing it?"

Sounds a lot like what we have going on here - guilt and young people thinking the government is the answer. Hopefully 52% of us want to be responsible for ourselves as well despite being called racists, bigots, xenophobes, or whatever other name is thrown our way for the purpose of guilt.

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