Colin Kaepernick answers his critics

[TitanTiger 20,466]

21 minutes ago, TheBlueVue said:

Who said he couldn't show his ass? I didn't. It would've been nice if his complaints had at least a tangential connection to reality. They didn't but, hey, he can protest and say whatever he likes but so can I. Are you suggesting that I dont have the same rights as he does?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, Mr. Reading is Hard.

[TitanTiger 20,466]

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

6 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I think many people are conflating two different issues:  whether they agree with his particular reasoning and whether they believe one should ever refuse to stand for the national anthem.  Because my personal view is that his particular reasoning is flawed and/or exaggerated.  I hear some arguments that are clearly coming from a place of thinking that it's simply disrespectful to soldiers and such to not stand - as if there's no place for such a protest or you're automatically spitting in the face of anyone whose fought for this country and that's BS.  But they cloak it in arguments about BLM and such.  

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable to protest like this and it is not disrespectful to veterans or any such thing like that.  That flag is not the sole property or symbol of the armed forces.  It can be a valid way to bring attention to the deeply held feeling that America is badly off course and is failing to live up to the lofty ideals described in our anthem, the pledge, and our Constitution.  

 

Disagree with the reasons he's stated all you want.  But don't turn the flag or any other symbol of this country into some sort of idol.

So did you take into consideration Kaepernick's deleted tweet where he said there wasn't much difference between the U.S. flag or the Confederate flag? I think his real view on not standing for the national anthem is much less palatable than what he's said on camera. He's filtered himself when he's on camera.

[Guest NC1406]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, Mr. Reading is Hard.

You can say it but if you do it on this board I might delete it ?

Classic. It's gold jerry. 

[TitanTiger 20,466]

26 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

So did you take into consideration Kaepernick's deleted tweet where he said there wasn't much difference between the U.S. flag or the Confederate flag? I think his real view on not standing for the national anthem is much less palatable than what he's said on camera. He's filtered himself when he's on camera.

You're still getting bogged down in whether or not you like his reasons.  I've already said I don't necessarily subscribe to all his reasoning.  But that is a different issue than whether or not it's ok to protest in this fashion at all.  

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

Just now, TitanTiger said:

You're still getting bogged down in whether or not you like his reasons.  I've already said I don't necessarily subscribe to all his reasoning.  But that is a different issue than whether or not it's ok to protest in this fashion at all.  

So you don't think he should face any repercussions from the NFL or that the NFL should punish him in any way?

 

 

[TitanTiger 20,466]

1 minute ago, Auburnfan91 said:

So you don't think he should face any repercussions from the NFL or that the NFL should punish him in any way?

No.  He should be free to sit or not be at attention.  It's called freedom of conscience.  Outward expressions of patriotism should not be coerced.

[japantiger 4,051]

He has every right to be a complete dick and sit thru the anthem and say what he wants to say about the country...Just like folks on here have a right to think he is a complete dick and say it and burn his jersey's and shut off the TV during his games and protest the team he plays for....let the marketplace of ideas rule....it should be noted that the NFL seems mighty quiet on his "speech" when they refuse to let statements on religion, etc., on the field.     

[aujeff11 6,243]

31 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

So did you take into consideration Kaepernick's deleted tweet where he said there wasn't much difference between the U.S. flag or the Confederate flag? I think his real view on not standing for the national anthem is much less palatable than what he's said on camera. He's filtered himself when he's on camera.

The above view is too extreme for me too agree with... obviously.  I have to wonder why the above surprises you though after he refused to stand for the national anthem? If he feels that way, then that is obviously the reason why he stayed seated.

[Guest NC1406]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

This notion that one can't live here while still critiquing areas where they feel the country is falling short or failing to live up to its ideals is where the real dumbassery is.  

Agreed. Now what did we say about those tea party supporters?  

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

No.  He should be free to sit or not be at attention.  It's called freedom of conscience.  Outward expressions of patriotism should not be coerced.

So his reasoning and statements no matter how inflammatory merit no punishment in your view?

Is your view/standard on this specific to the suject of patriotism or do you think the NFL should be consistent in how they deal with those who are show experessions of disrespect or express themselves in other aspects of culture?

I don't look as the flag as the symbol of the military or soldiers. It represents the whole country and the people that do proudly respect the flag and what it represents. Kaepernick was disrespecting everything about this country because instead of showing the minimal respect by standing, he'd rather show he puts priority over standing for the country. That's why this country is divided and so polarized. People want things their way, they don't want to show any respect if they disagree with something. No they have to label an issue or person as being beneath respect. It's all about demonizing the opposition and making yourself look like a martyr or noble. 

I hope that any player that chooses to show disrespect for any symbol or race, no matter how vile and disrespectful it may be can be protected by the NFL and not punished for their actions but I think most of us know it's a double standard and won't be handled consistently. It's a convenient way for some to use their very own "privilege" in a hypocritical way. It just shows a person's true character and how they are self-serving and talk about how people should be treated but then don't actually treat others in the way they preach about. 

Kaepernick's got an easy out now if he gets cut. He can blame it on his social views like Michael Sam blamed his sexual orientation as the reason he was cut.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

24 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

The above view is too extreme for me too agree with... obviously.  I have to wonder why the above surprises you though after he refused to stand for the national anthem? If he feels that way, then that is obviously the reason why he stayed seated.

So Kaepernick's deleted tweet didn't reveal a deeper sentiment than merely standing up for oppressed minorities which is what he's been rehearsing in his interviews about his stance?

[aujeff11 6,243]

7 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

So Kaepernick's deleted tweet didn't reveal a deeper sentiment than merely standing up for oppressed minorities which is what he's been rehearsing in his interviews about his stance?

Okay? I guess he was saying that the oppression hasn't changed since the days that the confederate flags were flown at the capital of the southern states? He didn't respect all of America though. That is a load of crap. He was fine to give his opinion, but the way he went about it was wrong. He can stick to it, better yet, he needs to or he will just look worse than he already does. I do think the NFL will start cutting down on these stances. The NFL can fine Cam Newton for wearing a certain visor but they cannot cut down on this crap? You better believe they can if the NFL's customers start complaining. Hell, you try to start this s*** at your work place and see where that gets you.

Please point out the double standard though in the NFL not punishing him? Just curious, did the football player that showed the cartoon version of the police officer being executed ever get fined or punished? 

[aujeff11 6,243]

 Supposedly, this was the third preseason game that he sat through the national anthem, and every time, his protest went unnoticed. Might explain why he had to bring it up.  The amount of backlash is surprising though. I guess when other high profile athletes protested, they were more careful to not offend anybody and the backlash only lasted until the coffee got cold. Maybe Kaepernick decided he didn't want to be like the other athletes that made weak protests by turning their warmup shirts inside out? If his end goal was that he wanted people to get back on to the conversation of oppression of minorities in America, then I guess he accomplished his mission. He certainly didn't make any friends by doing so though.

[alexava 6,972]

Does anyone remember Mahmoud Abdul Rauf? 

[alexava 6,972]

Yes you have the right to not acknowledge the flag but if your employer requires it you must comply. In high school baseball the coach required us to have short hair ( non mullet). We didn't have to get a haircut. We couldn't be jailed or expelled. We just couldn't play baseball. It was because we were not representing our team, school and community well in the coach and athletic director/ asst. principal's view. He asked for this attention. He might not like it. 

[TheBlueVue 177]

11 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

No.  He should be free to sit or not be at attention.  It's called freedom of conscience.  Outward expressions of patriotism should not be coerced.

That's BS. Believe it or not that guy is part of a team that sells tickets. NFL fans pay an enormous price to go see their favorite team and watch their favorite players. This may come as a big shock to you but they're not interested in political activism at the ball park. Aside from that, its his timing that makes the whole play look suspect. Last week he accounted for 4 turnovers and was penalized and fined $11Gs for hurling a racial slur at the guy who picked his last wounded duck. A week later he's benched and suddenly he's a social justice warrior protesting the oppression of  black people. Aaaaa'iiiiiight den!

This dude is an attention seeking hypocrite and an ungrateful brat. I don't need to see what Trump has said by comparison. He's running for office...CK is a football player who is trying to remain in the spotlight after being benched. That's all. In the process he's become a negative distraction for his team and a disappointment to many 49er fans. If I was in the Niner front office I'd cut him and let him pursue his political activism full time. He's hardly worth the $11.8 million that's guaranteed this season and if his contract doesn't have a not cut clause, it'd probably be better for the team to cut him. Its one thing to be riding out a contract but its altogether another to cause problems for the team in the process.

[Grumps 3,693]

13 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

This notion that one can't live here while still critiquing areas where they feel the country is falling short or failing to live up to its ideals is where the real dumbassery is.  

Who said that "one can't live here while still critiquing areas where they feel the country is falling short"? You seem to have changed the comment to mean something entirely different. "You should leave" is much different from "You can't stay."

[aujeff11 6,243]

54 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Who said that "one can't live here while still critiquing areas where they feel the country is falling short"? You seem to have changed the comment to mean something entirely different. "You should leave" is much different from "You can't stay."

Saying "he should leave" really doesn't help either. Should Trump leave because he thinks America is a hellhole? Should the GOP leave if "crooked Hillary" becomes President? Should the #nevertrump people leave if the Donald becomes president? Should MLK have left just because he felt oppressed? 

Saying he "should leave" is dumb. It doesn't make his situation any better and it certainly doesn't solve the identified problem. It's almost like some of the Christians that hop church to church just because the preacher said something too harsh and it offended them.  

[Mims44 1,864]

10 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Saying "he should leave" really doesn't help either. Should Trump leave because he thinks America is a hellhole? Should the GOP leave if "crooked Hillary" becomes President? Should the #nevertrump people leave if the Donald becomes president? Should MLK have left just because he felt oppressed? 

Saying he "should leave" is dumb. It doesn't make his situation any better and it certainly doesn't solve the identified problem. It's almost like some of the Christians that hop church to church just because the preacher said something too harsh and it offended them.  

What was the identified problem?

Anything that anyone 10 years old in this country hasn't heard 1 million times? Nope. Any new idea or crisis whatsoever? Nope.

How's he helping? volunteering? contacting his congressman? writing the president? presenting a 10 point plan for change? Nope on all accounts.

Comparing MLK or even trump to colon is goofy. MLK did more than simply whine, much more. And while Trump is horribly retarded, he is attempting to foment change albeit like a derp.

 

He's brought absolutely nothing new to the table, a washed up QB regurgitating old knowledge in a desperate attempt to see his name in the media one last time.

 

EDIT: Because this needs to be added for some people apparently. Saying he's stupid and I don't like him is not the same as me believing that no one in this country should be allowed to speak their mind or protest.

[aujeff11 6,243]

17 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

How's he helping? volunteering? contacting his congressman? writing the president? presenting a 10 point plan for change? Nop

I'd argue that's it's not his job to write up a 10 point plan. He used his own platform to put the message out there. When the discussion is out there,  the appropriate people can respond according with the formalities. He didn't  just "leave" is my point.

It has become blatantly obvious by now though that just because he is a backup QB, that you and others deem his message as invalid since he is supposedly doing it for his own personal gain.

17 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

And while Trump is horribly retarded, he is attempting to foment change albeit like a derp.

So in other words, he will be doing no more than Kaepernick.

[aujeff11 6,243]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/08/29/sport/colin-kaepernick-flag-protest-has-history-trnd/index.html?client=safari

"I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag. I know that I am a black man in a white world."

That's not Colin Kaepernick, the San Francisco 49ers quarterback whose refusal to stand during the national anthem has invited criticism from all corners of the sports world. 

That's Jackie Robinson, beloved baseball pioneer and civil rights activist, writing in his 1972 autobiography, "I Never Had It Made." 

After Kaepernick was spotted sitting during the anthem preceding last Friday's NFL preseason game, the struggling quarterback said he would not stand "to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." 

It's hard not to notice their words are almost perfectly aligned. But it shouldn't be a surprise when you consider some historical context, namely, that the anthem actually contains a reference to slavery and Kaepernick is far from the first athlete to question its scope. 

The national anthem's forgotten lyrics 

"The Star-Spangled Banner" was written by Francis Scott Key in 1814 about the American victory at the Battle of Fort McHenry. We only sing the first verse, but Key penned three more. This is the third verse: 

 

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,

That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion

A home and a Country should leave us no more?

Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.

No refuge could save the hireling and slave

From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

The mere mention of "slave" is not entirely remarkable; slavery was alive and well in the United States in 1814. Key himself owned slaves, was an anti-abolitionist and once called his African brethren "a distinct and inferior race of people."   

Some interpretations of these lyrics contend Key was in fact taking pleasure in the deaths of freed black slaves who had decided to fight with the British against the United States. 

In order to bolster their numbers, British forces offered slaves their freedom in British territories if they would join their cause during the war. These black recruits formed the Colonial Marines, and were looked down upon by people like Key who saw their actions as treasonous. 

As an anthem, "The Star-Spangled Banner" has never been a unanimous fit. Since it was officially designated as the national anthem in 1931, Americans have debated the suitability of its militaristic lyrics and difficult tune. (Some have offered up "God Bless America" and "America the Beautiful" as alternatives.)

 

Athletes and the American ritual 

 

The American ritual of the national anthem has always been a crucible for patriotism and protest. It presents a particularly fraught dynamic for sports stars, since sports events are often so closely tied with the rhetoric of American pride. When a highly visible opinion comes up against a highly visible symbol, the result is always incendiary. 

Around the same time Jackie Robinson was using his achievements to advance civil rights causes, two American Olympic runners, Tommie Smith and John Carlos, raised their fists in a black power salute during a medal ceremony at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City as the anthem was playing. 

The result was iconic. The reaction was ugly. Racial slurs were hurled at the pair and an article in Time called it a "public display of petulance."

Today, similar criticisms have been leveled against Kaepernick, a biracial Super Bowl quarterback who was raised by white adoptive parents and made $13 million in 2014. He was called "spoiled." He was called far worse in his Twitter mentions. 

It's a lot of ire for a gesture with a strong historical and rhetorical precedent. 

One doesn't even need to dip into iconic moments in history to follow the trend. 

Former Cleveland Cavaliers player Dion Waiters refused to be on the court for the anthem in 2014. And Denver Nuggets player Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf courted criticism after he deliberately sat during the anthem in 1996. 

In fact, Kaepernick didn't stand for the first two preseason games of this year prior to Friday's display. He wasn't in uniform, so no one noticed. Or if they did, they didn't care. 

 

[TitanTiger 20,466]

1 hour ago, Grumps said:

Who said that "one can't live here while still critiquing areas where they feel the country is falling short"? You seem to have changed the comment to mean something entirely different. "You should leave" is much different from "You can't stay."

I think there's a hair's breadth of difference between the two.  Basically one is saying that if you criticize the country you live in, you shouldn't be here.  Which is nonsense.  Part of our freedom here is the freedom to criticize not only our government, but our laws, our society, our culture, the people or anything else that we believe is failing to live up to the ideals this nation claims to hold in high esteem.

[AURaptor 1,121]

Jerry Rice‏ @JerryRice

All lives matter. So much going on in this world today.Can we all just get along! Colin,I respect your stance but don't disrespect the Flag.

[aujeff11 6,243]

From a Navy Veteran:

 

One of the first messages I read was about 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick, quoted above, who last Friday night at the beginning of a preseason game suddenly decided to become the most hated man in America du jour by deliberately not standing for the National Anthem. 

Yes, that's right, a football player didn't stand for the National Anthem.

As you know, this means Kaepernick is scum, a horrible human being, a likely member of ISIS, a Muslim terrorist, a black thug, a communist, a socialist (and not the cool share your weed Bernie Sanders kind of socialist but the Red Brigade kind of Socialist who sleeps under a poster of Chairman Mao), a radical, a Black Panther, and he probably has Fidel Castro's phone number in his contact favorites.

Yeah. Okay. 

I answered the message and went on to the next one. 

The next message was about Kaepernick. As was the next one. And the next one. And...

They all begin pretty much the same way: Jim, AS A VETERAN, what do you think about this? Well?

Let me answer all the messages at once
__________

AS A VETERAN, what do I think about Colin Kaepernick's decision to sit during the National Anthem?

As a veteran?

Very well, as a veteran then, this is what I believe:

The very first thing I learned in the military is this: Respect is a two-way street. If you want respect, true respect, sincere respect, then you have to GIVE IT.

If you want respect, you have to do the things necessary to earn it each and every single day. There are no short cuts and no exceptions.

Respect cannot be compelled.

Respect cannot be bought.

Respect cannot be inherited.

Respect cannot be demanded at the muzzle of a gun or by beating it into somebody or by shaming them into it. Can not. You might get what you think is respect, but it's not. It's only the appearance of respect. It's fear, it's groveling, it's not respect. Far, far too many people both in and out of the military, people who should emphatically know better, do not understand this simple fact: there is an enormous difference between fear and respect.

Respect has to be earned.

Respect. Has. To. Be. Earned.

Respect has to be earned every day, by every word, by every action.

It takes a lifetime of words and deeds to earn respect.

It takes only one careless word, one thoughtless action, to lose it.

You have to be worthy of respect. You have to live up to, or at least do your best to live up to, those high ideals -- the ones America supposedly embodies, that shining city on the hill, that exceptional nation we talk about, yes, that one. To earn respect you have to be fair. You have to have courage. You must embrace reason. You have to know when to hold the line and when to compromise. You have to take responsibility and hold yourself accountable. You have to keep your word. You have to give respect, true respect, to get it back.

There are no short cuts. None.

Now, any veteran worth the label should know that. If they don't, then likely they weren't much of a soldier to begin with and you can tell them I said so.

IF Kaepernick doesn't feel his country respects him enough for him to respect it in return, well, then you can't MAKE him respect it.

You can not make him respect it.

If you try to force a man to respect you, you'll only make him respect you less.

With threats, by violence, by shame, you can maybe compel Kaepernick to stand up and put his hand over his heart and force him to be quiet. You might.

But that's not respect.

It's only the illusion of respect.

You might force this man into the illusion of respect. You might. Would you be satisfied then? Would that make you happy? Would that make you respect your nation, the one which forced a man into the illusion of respect, a nation of little clockwork patriots all pretending satisfaction and respect? Is that what you want? If THAT's what matters to you, the illusion of respect, then you're not talking about freedom or liberty. You're not talking about the United States of America. Instead you're talking about every dictatorship from the Nazis to North Korea where people are lined up and MADE to salute with the muzzle of a gun pressed to the back of their necks.

That, that illusion of respect, is not why I wore a uniform.

That's not why I held up my right hand and swore the oath and put my life on the line for my country.

That, that illusion of respect, is not why I am a veteran.

Not so a man should be forced to show respect he doesn't feel.

That's called slavery and I have no respect for that at all.

If Americans want this man to respect America, then first they must respect him.

If America wants the world's respect, it must be worthy of respect.

America must be worthy of respect. Torture, rendition, indefinite detention, unarmed black men shot down in the street every day, poverty, inequality, voter suppression, racism, bigotry in every form, obstructionism, blind patriotism, NONE of those things are worthy of respect from anybody -- least of all an American.

But doesn't it also mean that if Kaepernick wants respect, he must give it first? Give it to America? Be worthy of respect himself? Stand up, shut up, and put his hand over his heart before Old Glory?

No. It doesn't.

Respect doesn't work that way.

Power flows from positive to negative. Electricity flows from greater potential to lesser.

The United States isn't a person, it's a vast construct, a framework of law and order and civilization designed to protect the weak from the ruthless and after more than two centuries of revision and refinement it exists to provide in equal measure for all of us the opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The United States is POWER.

All the power rests with America. Just as it does in the military chain of command. And like that chain of command, like the electrical circuit described above, respect must flow from greater to lesser FIRST before it can return.

To you the National Anthem means one thing, to Kaepernick it means something else. We are all shaped and defined by our experiences and we see the world through our own eyes. That's freedom. That's liberty. The right to believe differently. The right to protest as you will. The right to demand better. The right to believe your country can BE better, that it can live up to its sacred ideals, and the right to loudly note that it has NOT. The right to use your voice, your actions, to bring attention to the things you believe in. The right to want more for others, freedom, liberty, justice, equality, and RESPECT. 

A true veteran might not agree with Colin Kaepernick, but a true veteran would fight to the death to protect his right to say what he believes. 

You don't like what Kaepernick has to say? Then prove him wrong, BE the nation he can respect. 

It's really just that simple.