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Mercer Post Game


tigerbrotha12

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8 minutes ago, FoundationEagle said:

Completely ignored that last sentence I guess.  Also completely ignored that I said I expect to be near a top tier SEC team next year....  I will say this and I've said it all season. Something is not quite meshing in this coaching staff (it appears in my opinion). Very very basic fundamentals are not showing up on game day. Bruce may need to tweak his staff and bring in some bright scheming coaches.  He may just need more time with young players. I don't know what the fix is. Right now we play street ball very similar to Lebo ball (which was likely the worst coached teams I've ever seen at AU). The difference right now is talent. We are winning games almost solely on talent. We sure aren't winning because we play smarter than other teams, or run better plays than other teams (we don't even appear to run plays following time outs). I'll say it again...Wiley is the center piece of this team improving.  Without an inside presence, Bruce isn't changing the dribble drive offense that requires hot hands due to no actual plays being run. With an inside presence, he will likely be willing to adapt.  I'm happy we have the talent we have.  I think they need better direction, but that's a guess since I don't see practice.   I'd love to hear solid explanation as to why we hardly ever run an offense, or why we don't give effort in rebounding. Those things can't be blamed entirely on youth.  Messing up can be blamed on youth. Running no offense and an entire team lacking fundamentals can not IMO.  Not sure it can be blamed on height as we get out rebounded by teams similar in height.  I am excited that we are 8-2 as previous coaches couldn't get us near here. I just hate watching such talent be so under utilized. The talent alone on this team could be a sweet 16 team, however all the things we lack above may cost us any post season if we don't improve. 

I think I can shed some light on your question about why we don't seem like we run an offense. If you look back at Pearl's teams of the past, he hasn't won with intricate play calls and off-the-ball work. His teams of the past seem to have 3 distinct characteristics:

1.) they play fast: the run the floor when they have a chance and try to take advantage of transition defenses of other teams.

2.) Half court offenses built around a dribble drive: Pearl's teams tend to revolve around a guy or two driving and dishing out to a wide open shot, or finishing the drive. It's how we are scoring a lot this year, whether that's on the drive and kick out, the drive, or the isolation shot from outside. 

3.) Defense: Pearl's big focus is on defense. The reason, I believe, he doesn't put a ton of emphasis on X's and O's on offense is because he prefers to utilize his talent running the floor quickly in order to set up a great half court defense. If you score quickly, it takes the other team time to run down, get set, and inbound the ball. I think this is the main reason why we see some pretty good defense out of this bunch at times. 

In other words, the offense should work like this: utilize the talent of your athletes to score quickly. If that opportunity is not there, utilize the best ability of your team (in this case, it is three point shooting, which could explain the pereimeter passing, or the dribble drive I.e. Dunans, Mustapha, Purifoy). On the nights you are shooting well, play your solid defense,  and winning is pretty easy. On the nights you aren't shooting well, play good defense and at least leave yourself with a chance to win the game.

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44 minutes ago, Eagle Eye 7 said:

while our guys didn't play like they should have, I definitely say without the blackhead, white  ref we would have won by 20. He was just plain out cheating for Mercer. The out of bound foul on Dumas and the goal tending was plain out crap. I don't know who he is or where he came from but I hope Gus sends some film to whoever his boss is and makes sure he does not call another AU game. He should be fired. Maybe he is kin to Shaw. Not to worried about this down game after big win this week and with OK and UConn up next. All teams have a down game now and then. Especially with a young team like this you better get ready for a little bit of a roller coaster ride. WDE 

Didn't remember the game was on SEC Network until it was almost over.  I was upset about the goal tending call until they showed it in slow motion- definitely goal tending. Can't comment on anything else other than it was nice to be on the winning end of a thrilling finish. 

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13 minutes ago, JwgreDeux said:

Those that keep harping on is playing "street ball" and not running any offense, must have never played much pick-up and don't know what they are talking about. 

Every trip down the court is not designed to be a scripted play, designed for a pre-determined shot. 

Every trip, no. When the offense is usually 4 people standing in one spot while one guy tries to score, that's not an offense. Most offenses have a certain way they move without the ball, screens, picks (with or without roll) and guys coming around the end line to get open. Our plan is to hope one guy can draw 2 defenders and then pass to the open guy. When teams cover the "open guy", we have a very hard time creating scoring opportunities. The lack of offense has nothing to do with scripted plays. It has to do with not having an actual scheme.  People claiming so has nothing to do with "must have never played much pickup and don't what they're talking about" but with actually knowing what an offense in BBall is supposed to look like and not seeing it.   As another poster responded to my question, our philosophy really appears to be to try and win on talent. Talent only gets you so far, preparation gets you to the next level. Hopefully with Wiley"s role expanding we see more preparation. 

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20 minutes ago, tigerbrotha12 said:

I think I can shed some light on your question about why we don't seem like we run an offense. If you look back at Pearl's teams of the past, he hasn't won with intricate play calls and off-the-ball work. His teams of the past seem to have 3 distinct characteristics:

1.) they play fast: the run the floor when they have a chance and try to take advantage of transition defenses of other teams.

2.) Half court offenses built around a dribble drive: Pearl's teams tend to revolve around a guy or two driving and dishing out to a wide open shot, or finishing the drive. It's how we are scoring a lot this year, whether that's on the drive and kick out, the drive, or the isolation shot from outside. 

3.) Defense: Pearl's big focus is on defense. The reason, I believe, he doesn't put a ton of emphasis on X's and O's on offense is because he prefers to utilize his talent running the floor quickly in order to set up a great half court defense. If you score quickly, it takes the other team time to run down, get set, and inbound the ball. I think this is the main reason why we see some pretty good defense out of this bunch at times. 

In other words, the offense should work like this: utilize the talent of your athletes to score quickly. If that opportunity is not there, utilize the best ability of your team (in this case, it is three point shooting, which could explain the pereimeter passing, or the dribble drive I.e. Dunans, Mustapha, Purifoy). On the nights you are shooting well, play your solid defense,  and winning is pretty easy. On the nights you aren't shooting well, play good defense and at least leave yourself with a chance to win the game.

What's wrong with on the nights your not shooting well, try and create better scoring opportunities? We do very little of that regardless of how we are shooting. This is why Id love to see Bruce bring in bright Xs and Os coaches. Not sure who he'd have to replace or who would be the weakest link, but it appears it would be what's needed to take this team to the next level. Question: how many teams run the dribble drive in the manner we do (usually 4 guys standing around) and have a lot of success?  I know there have been a few dribble drive teams have success, but they move without the ball. We almost seem to take offense as a time to rest.  Will it change with more experience?  Who knows. I'm hoping Wiley gives enough presence to force a scheme change. That's a lot to ask of him, but I think he's up to it.  Running the DD the way we do depends way too much on hot hands to be consistently successful IMO. 

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7 minutes ago, FoundationEagle said:

What's wrong with on the nights your not shooting well, try and create better scoring opportunities? We do very little of that regardless of how we are shooting. This is why Id love to see Bruce bring in bright Xs and Os coaches. Not sure who he'd have to replace or who would be the weakest link, but it appears it would be what's needed to take this team to the next level. Question: how many teams run the dribble drive in the manner we do (usually 4 guys standing around) and have a lot of success?  I know there have been a few dribble drive teams have success, but they move without the ball. We almost seem to take offense as a time to rest.  Will it change with more experience?  Who knows. I'm hoping Wiley gives enough presence to force a scheme change. That's a lot to ask of him, but I think he's up to it.  Running the DD the way we do depends way too much on hot hands to be consistently successful IMO. 

Flip over to ESPNU and watch Clemson. 

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7 hours ago, JwgreDeux said:

Those that keep harping on is playing "street ball" and not running any offense, must have never played much pick-up and don't know what they are talking about. 

Every trip down the court is not designed to be a scripted play, designed for a pre-determined shot. 

Au64? Where you at?

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8 hours ago, AU64 said:

What is sad is someone making juvenile comments like that one noted above....Why do you take shots at people like that?   No point in it.....

That's what you had a problem with huh? Nothing to say about what the thread was about huh? 

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7 hours ago, FoundationEagle said:

Every trip, no. When the offense is usually 4 people standing in one spot while one guy tries to score, that's not an offense. Most offenses have a certain way they move without the ball, screens, picks (with or without roll) and guys coming around the end line to get open. Our plan is to hope one guy can draw 2 defenders and then pass to the open guy. When teams cover the "open guy", we have a very hard time creating scoring opportunities. The lack of offense has nothing to do with scripted plays. It has to do with not having an actual scheme.  People claiming so has nothing to do with "must have never played much pickup and don't what they're talking about" but with actually knowing what an offense in BBall is supposed to look like and not seeing it.   As another poster responded to my question, our philosophy really appears to be to try and win on talent. Talent only gets you so far, preparation gets you to the next level. Hopefully with Wiley"s role expanding we see more preparation. 

If that is your analysis of our offensive schemes based on what you are seeing, I will have to agree to disagree. 

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6 hours ago, JwgreDeux said:

If that is your analysis of our offensive schemes based on what you are seeing, I will have to agree to disagree. 

Disagreeing without any analysis to offer? Come on now. You just claimed anyone thinking that doesn't know what they are talking about. You gotta have something to back that assertion up, right?

I read you "Things I saw". It's a very nice analysis. I saw in there where you said it had nothing to do with no offense but didn't expand why you think so. So, please if you have the time, expand into why you think differently.  I'll give you credence that you know more about BBall than myself so I'd really like someone with your knowledge to explain what myself and many others are seeing as a lazy version of the dribble drive. 

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1 hour ago, FoundationEagle said:

Didn't get to watch. Care to elaborate?

Just basically that they ran a similar offense as AU, and were beating uat with it just fine. They were able to get the ball inside more since they have a real post player, and that opened things up a little more but there wasn't a lot of off the ball movement at times like we see with AU. 

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15 minutes ago, jared52 said:

Just basically that they ran a similar offense as AU, and were beating uat with it just fine. They were able to get the ball inside more since they have a real post player, and that opened things up a little more but there wasn't a lot of off the ball movement at times like we see with AU. 

Oh ok. Clemson also beat the team by 40 that we needed a last second miracle to beat. I'll have to watch them play a game. If they are using a post player, that's a world apart from how we play at the moment. This is why I strongly hope Wiley can fit in quickly. If we dont get going this year, I still believe we will be a good team next year, even with the hot and cold DD offense. If we can start adding some real depth at center, I'd expect our entire offense looks quite different, unless Bruce is just as stubborn as Gus (which I doubt). Heck, if we just simply start moving without the ball we would be twice as hard to defend.  Just a few off ball screens would completely open up this offense. Maybe with this youth we just haven't gotten to that yet (or the previous 2 years :-\). I'm starting to realize it may just be the entire lazy concept of the dribble drive that bothers me, especially when it's run lazily.  We do have moments of good ball movement. Hoping that becomes commonplace. 

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when we play the updykes, if bruce will turn up the full court heat, they will turn it over more times than a fry cook making eggs for breakfast....they have no true point guard.....i have a question....why doesn't he do like cliff used to do and force the inbounds to the corner and then trap....he did it once yesterday and i worked....i know he wants to steal the inbounds, but why not continue with the trap in the corner?

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5 minutes ago, tombigbeetiger said:

when we play the updykes, if bruce will turn up the full court heat, they will turn it over more times than a fry cook making eggs for breakfast....they have no true point guard.....i have a question....why doesn't he do like cliff used to do and force the inbounds to the corner and then trap....he did it once yesterday and i worked....i know he wants to steal the inbounds, but why not continue with the trap in the corner?

I'm sure it's part of the plan. In all reality, inbounds passes are probably our specialty right now. We are probably sticking with what is working. 

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9 hours ago, cole256 said:

That's what you had a problem with huh? Nothing to say about what the thread was about huh? 

Yes ...because it was unnecessary....you had already made you point about the play and expressed your opinion which was all that was needed.   You noted in one your posts about being abrasive but frankly it's not the abrasiveness, it's the arrogance that many folks object to...as if you are you are the oracle ....the only knower of the "truth" . 

You have some good observations about the game...but your personal snipes at people you don't agree with get's tiring....JMO but when you have a different opinion, just express it...and stop....

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You can't run full court press, traps, play high tempo basketball all at once all game. If you try to play full court and one person gets beat you probably just gave up a basket. We all know we're playing undersized. You extend the court you're screaming to the other team hey!!!! Here's the mismatch! Throw it down here! 

And truth be told we don't have great individual one on one defensive players. Really in short we don't have this abundance of talent some say we do. We actually have a bunch of specialist but not overall talented players

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8 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Yes ...because it was unnecessary....you had already made you point about the play and expressed your opinion which was all that was needed.   You noted in one your posts about being abrasive but frankly it's not the abrasiveness, it's the arrogance that many folks object to...as if you are you are the oracle ....the only knower of the "truth" . 

You have some good observations about the game...but your personal snipes at people you don't agree with get's tiring....JMO but when you have a different opinion, just express it...and stop....

Like I said you just don't like me so this is what you do. And that's completely fine I'm good with that. But don't pretend that you didn't read or it wasn't explained.....it was, you just didn't like the messenger.

 

Dude just posted several times if you keep saying stuff about offense you must not have ever played basketball. You have nothing to say about that, because you like him. He doesn't call you out on conflicting thoughts. And once again that's fine. But let's not make pretend I personally snipe at you or anybody. You had that one quote and even that quote served a purpose. Calling guys idiots about something you've never done or been able to is ridiculous. Period. And it was a general statement to the meltdown thread. I didn't specifically say anybody's name

And it's not many, at least not on basketball. It's like three of you. 

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3 hours ago, FoundationEagle said:

Disagreeing without any analysis to offer? Come on now. You just claimed anyone thinking that doesn't know what they are talking about. You gotta have something to back that assertion up, right?

I read you "Things I saw". It's a very nice analysis. I saw in there where you said it had nothing to do with no offense but didn't expand why you think so. So, please if you have the time, expand into why you think differently.  I'll give you credence that you know more about BBall than myself so I'd really like someone with your knowledge to explain what myself and many others are seeing as a lazy version of the dribble drive. 

First, I suggested the altered line up would cause this problem in my preview, and also highlighted some unusual groupings that contributed to it in my follow up. This was our third game in a row with a different group dressed out to play the game.

It's holiday week so work may be slow enough for me to illustrate something. But I have already done a post or two with film review of what we are trying to do offensively. 

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30 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Like I said you just don't like me so this is what you do. And that's completely fine I'm good with that. But don't pretend that you didn't read or it wasn't explained.....it was, you just didn't like the messenger.

 

Dude just posted several times if you keep saying stuff about offense you must not have ever played basketball. You have nothing to say about that, because you like him. He doesn't call you out on conflicting thoughts. And once again that's fine. But let's not make pretend I personally snipe at you or anybody. You had that one quote and even that quote served a purpose. Calling guys idiots about something you've never done or been able to is ridiculous. Period. And it was a general statement to the meltdown thread. I didn't specifically say anybody's name

And it's not many, at least not on basketball. It's like three of you. 

I was one of the ones that said idiot. It was in the heat of the moment and I truly don't believe Dunans is an idiot. I just thought the play was idiotic, but never the less it was just a mistake by a good player, not an idiot and I shouldn't have called him an idiot. I should have called the play idiotic. I have no issues with people calling me out for calling him an idiot because I shouldn't have. If there were other cases you are referring to I am not aware of them and cannot comment. 

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A lot of knowledgeable people have commented about the lack of ball movement just passing around the perimeter and then taking a 3 point shot or a dribble and drive. I agree I have seen that but in the Mercer game I also started to see some changes in our attack. I saw Purifoy and Herron both come from the other side to the key where they received passes and attacked from there. These were very successful and led to scores or fouls. I also saw Wiley use his body to get good position to receive a pass down low and receive it.

Till now we haven't had a down low presence who could score. Smith and Spencer score when they beat somebody down court and get a dunk or make a quick cut but they don't Post well and when they do they put the ball on the floor instead of making a quick move and shot. Purifoy and Herron are the ideal type players to come from other side and make themselves available to shoot, drive or pass when players collapse on them. I think you will see more of this. Also as Wiley and team practice more I think you will initially see more passing down low and shooting and then eventually passing down low and passing back out for open three point shots.

I am not wearing orange and blue glasses. I see the things we need to improve on and I don't have unrealistic expectations. I think we can get into the NIT this year and if things work very well we have an outside chance of getting to NCAA. I will need to see Wiley play more before I II can put on my Orange and Blue glasses.  Purifoy is our most complete player on both O and D but heeds needs to improve his rebounding. Herron is a close second as a complete player who rebound better than Purifoy but needs to be more consistent on his FT's, Spencer and Smith are shot blockers first which often takes them out of rebounding position. Dunans does a lot of things very well but presses to much at times so he makes mistakes. Wiley has the Potential to score inside and rebound and I think his presence will actually help Dunans as he won't have to press as much.  Harper is playing really well as a freshman PG good ball handling skills can shoot and plays pretty good man for man defense but needs to be more of a leader by getting others involved in the O. Johnson is a very steady influence at PG.  Once Brown and Spencer have served their time we will also be an improved team.  I can even see a few sets where we have two big's on the floor at once as Wiley and Spencer both run well for their size also hopefully practicing against Wiley Spencer will be an improved paint defender who plays on his feet more which will allow him to body out his man and rebound better.

All of this will take time. With luck and hard work we will see gradual improvement through out  the year.

Next year we lose Dunans, Waddel, Smith and Johnson but we will have Mitchell to replace Johnson and Okeke to replace Dunans with the balance of the team returning. Hopefully we can find another graduated big man so we can have more depth up front but we will have Wiley, Spencer and McLemore returning up front so even if we don't we will be in ok shape in the paint. Okeke is bigger than Dunans at 6'7" and 225 pounds so should be able to help on the boards.

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18 hours ago, FoundationEagle said:

What's wrong with on the nights your not shooting well, try and create better scoring opportunities? We do very little of that regardless of how we are shooting. This is why Id love to see Bruce bring in bright Xs and Os coaches. Not sure who he'd have to replace or who would be the weakest link, but it appears it would be what's needed to take this team to the next level. Question: how many teams run the dribble drive in the manner we do (usually 4 guys standing around) and have a lot of success?  I know there have been a few dribble drive teams have success, but they move without the ball. We almost seem to take offense as a time to rest.  Will it change with more experience?  Who knows. I'm hoping Wiley gives enough presence to force a scheme change. That's a lot to ask of him, but I think he's up to it.  Running the DD the way we do depends way too much on hot hands to be consistently successful IMO. 

As much as I might be ridiculed for it, FoundationEagle has some very good points. While I don't agree with everything ("creating better scoring opportunities" as you say would in turn, slow the game down, which is not the pace Pearl wants to play at) I do agree that some better X's and O's for a few half court sets could benefit the team more. I think this team is pretty successful, with isolation and simple picks to get a playmaker free, but there could certainly be some plays called that help us to get a shot off earlier in the shot clock than we tend to do when we have to set up half court offense (notice, when we can't get an open shot early, we tend to throw it out and wait until about 10 seconds on the clock to run and set a screen for someone and then he tries to create. 

Im still a little hesitant to go fully into a half court offense, because I think this team thrives on running the floor and early in the clock three point shooting, but some well drawn up off the ball movement could benefit us. The difference between creating better opportunities and what I'm  talking about here is the speed at which we play. The first thing we do, I think, needs to be to run the floor and look for an open shot. If it's not there, then our half court offense should be the dribble drive and the kick out. If that is not open, I think having a better play call with ten seconds on the shot clock is the way to go then. 

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Our O can be frustrating, I understand where some people are coming from when we are stuck passing the ball around a zone with no cutting action going on. But I can assure you it's not Bruce. He was yelling all game for someone to flash to the soft spot and middle of the zone. And I swear it's the simplest thing to attack this area of the zone. If I were to suggest something (lol) it would be to have an actual set that we run almost every damn time against 2-3 which attacks this area EVERY TIME. We may very well do that but sometimes it seems like our guys are just passing the ball around and are content with just shooting it over the zone from time to time -- which is not generally a trusted way to beat zone teams.

If we did what Bruce was screaming for all game -- just somebody simply cut into the middle, the short corner opens up and once you're attacking a zone from inside out it causes all kinds or problems for the D, especially if you're making the smart/right pass. The reason I'd force this issue is that IMO there are not too many players in the SEC, and probably only a handful in the nation (ok this may be the homer in me talking for once) that can stick with Heron or Purifoy if they get to that spot when teams go zone against us (where the SEC logo is right beneath the FT line). We were successful with DP and Heron flashing to these areas but it should've been happening much more -- think how Cliff Ellis utilized Marquis Daniels in our game vs Syracuse in like 2003 NCAA tournament when Quisey went off for 27 pts. I know Bruce is yelling his face off for someone to flash there but for some reason these guys aren't doing it and it's the most basic of concepts vs a zone. 

I hope this post didn't read as me complaining about the game, our team, our staff, or anything like that, I'm just enjoying the watching these guys grow and loving where our program is headed, and hopefully as this year goes on our guys will feel more comfortable out there because now with Wiley coming on alot of our on-court chemistry building will have to start from scratch since Wiley is poised to be a big part of our team.

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8 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Our O can be frustrating, I understand where some people are coming from when we are stuck passing the ball around a zone with no cutting action going on. But I can assure you it's not Bruce. He was yelling all game for someone to flash to the soft spot and middle of the zone. And I swear it's the simplest thing to attack this area of the zone. If I were to suggest something (lol) it would be to have an actual set that we run almost every damn time against 2-3 which attacks this area EVERY TIME. We may very well do that but sometimes it seems like our guys are just passing the ball around and are content with just shooting it over the zone from time to time -- which is not generally a trusted way to beat zone teams.

If we did what Bruce was screaming for all game -- just somebody simply cut into the middle, the short corner opens up and once you're attacking a zone from inside out it causes all kinds or problems for the D, especially if you're making the smart/right pass. The reason I'd force this issue is that IMO there are not too many players in the SEC, and probably only a handful in the nation (ok this may be the homer in me talking for once) that can stick with Heron or Purifoy if they get to that spot when teams go zone against us (where the SEC logo is right beneath the FT line). We were successful with DP and Heron flashing to these areas but it should've been happening much more -- think how Cliff Ellis utilized Marquis Daniels in our game vs Syracuse in like 2003 NCAA tournament when Quisey went off for 27 pts. I know Bruce is yelling his face off for someone to flash there but for some reason these guys aren't doing it and it's the most basic of concepts vs a zone. 

I hope this post didn't read as me complaining about the game, our team, our staff, or anything like that, I'm just enjoying the watching these guys grow and loving where our program is headed, and hopefully as this year goes on our guys will feel more comfortable out there because now with Wiley coming on alot of our on-court chemistry building will have to start from scratch since Wiley is poised to be a big part of our team.

Absolutely don't want to do any of that.....that will get you hammered.  :)

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What do you guys think of an eventual starting 5 of:

Harper

Heron

Purifoy

Spencer

Wiley

 

We could use this to combat teams that deploy 2 post players, and then go back to our lineup of Purifoy at the 4 and Brown back in at 2 for small-ball matchups. One major thing to think about is if Spencer can play 4 effectively. He brings a lot to the table as a havoc-wreaking 5 man in our "create chaos" small ball style, so I wonder if he can still do that as a 4 man next to wiley. I like the idea of Wiley altering shots with sheer size and Spencer becoming a better weakside help defender with the blocks. What I like even better is that, with this proposed lineup above, that if Spencer goes flying out to contest an opposing driver's shot is that we are not all of a sudden SOL on the rebounding front with Wiley still in there to fight for a rebound. On the flip side does having Horace and Wiley, both who need to be close to the basket offensively, on the court together mess with our ability to slash to the basket by muddying up the interior?

 

Or as an alternative, we can stick with our same lineup just swap Spencer for Wiley. I really like Horace's skill set and wonder if he can be a critical spark plug for us off the bench. But it's a huge boost for us if he's all of a sudden not called upon to be the strongest rebounder on the team. The development of our team and how our roster is managed is going to be very interesting to me to watch as we move ahead in the schedule and I am very much looking forward to it.

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nobody runs a traditional half court offense without a scoring threat at the post. Let's see what he does now...But they are running plays. They aren't out there just playing aimlessly. Even the breaks are designed plays....

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