Two Good Men

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Today is a day to recognize two good men. We all know it is a day set aside to recognize Martin L. King who dedicated himself to a cause he strongly believed in.......desegregation. Today is also the birthday of Robert E. Lee who dedicated himself to defend something he strongly believed in.....state's rights. I salute both men for staunchly standing on principles they believed in. I know from past discussions here not everyone agrees as far as REL is concerned. That's OK. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Mine are the same today as last year and will be the same forever,

[TitanTiger 20,472]

I salute MLK.  He was fighting for what was morally right and just.

I realize the REL is a mixed bag and probably a good man in many ways but ultimately, regardless of standing up for something he strongly believed in, what he strongly believed in was the wrong thing.  It was not morally right or just.  He had an enormous moral and ethic blindness.  He believed in states' rights, but the overarching and primary "right" the Southern states wanted to preserve was the right to keep slavery  and thus deny a entire group of people their human rights.  Being sincere doesn't absolve one from being judged on the object of their sincerity.

[TexasTiger 12,829]

One led an armed insurrection against America-- he's Proud's favorite.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

21 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I salute MLK.  He was fighting for what was morally right and just.

I realize the REL is a mixed bag and probably a good man in many ways but ultimately, regardless of standing up for something he strongly believed in, what he strongly believed in was the wrong thing.  It was not morally right or just.  He had an enormous moral and ethic blindness.  He believed in states' rights, but the overarching and primary "right" the Southern states wanted to preserve was the right to keep slavery  and thus deny a entire group of people their human rights.  Being sincere doesn't absolve one from being judged on the object of their sincerity.

I'm not going to do the debate we have every year but you just don't know your history or the facts. In a letter to his wife in 1856, 5 years before the war, Lee wrote "slavery is a moral and political evil in any country." 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

3 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I'm not going to do the debate we have every year but you just don't know your history or the facts. In a letter to his wife in 1856, 5 years before the war, Lee wrote "slavery is a moral and political evil in any country." 

I know my history and my facts and it has been shown to you multiple times, ad nauseam around here.  Regardless of what Lee said, he chose to believe in the wrong thing in choosing to fight with Virginia instead of the Union.  

We aren't having this ridiculous debate again.  You've made your love for REL known.  So be it.  You can't be persuaded with the full spectrum of facts.  But we aren't buying the revisionism to whitewash what really happened.

[TexasTiger 12,829]

7 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I'm not going to do the debate we have every year but you just don't know your history or the facts. In a letter to his wife in 1856, 5 years before the war, Lee wrote "slavery is a moral and political evil in any country." 

And yet, he fought to preserve it. Inexcusable. He sided with evil and immorality.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

9 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I know my history and my facts and it has been shown to you multiple times, ad nauseam around here.  Regardless of what Lee said, he chose to believe in the wrong thing in choosing to fight with Virginia instead of the Union.  

We aren't having this ridiculous debate again.  You've made your love for REL known.  So be it.  You can't be persuaded with the full spectrum of facts.  But we aren't buying the revisionism to whitewash what really happened.

LMAO. I guess you didn't absorb all of my OP. I said I wasn't going to get into a time wasting debate. I know your position and you know mine but your ego requires that you always have to be right.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

12 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

LMAO. I guess you didn't absorb all of my OP. I said I wasn't going to get into a time wasting debate. I know your position and you know mine but your ego requires that you always have to be right.

Then shut up and there won't be any further debate.  If you don't want a "time wasting debate," then don't introduce new items to discuss then act like I'm the one who won't let it go.

[TexasTiger 12,829]

8 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

LMAO. I guess you didn't absorb all of my OP. I said I wasn't going to get into a time wasting debate. I know your position and you know mine but your ego requires that you always have to be right.

Proud- "I'm starting a thread but I don't wanna discuss it." 

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

Then shut up and there won't be any further debate.  If you don't want a "time wasting debate," then don't introduce new items to discuss the act like I'm the one who won't let it go.

LMAO some more. Bye. Have a good day if you can.

 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

4 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

LMAO some more. Bye. Have a good day if you can.

As Tex said, 

Proud- "I'm starting a thread but I don't wanna discuss it." 

I'll have a great day.  Sayonara.

[ShocksMyBrain 9,362]

Robert E. Lee/Date of birth

 

 

January 19, 1807

[ShocksMyBrain 9,362]

Is there something I'm missing? Today is the 16th. 

[TexasTiger 12,829]

1 minute ago, ShocksMyBrain said:

Robert E. Lee/Date of birth

 

 

January 19, 1807

Proud-- just trolling MLK and showing his true values.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

28 minutes ago, ShocksMyBrain said:

Robert E. Lee/Date of birth

 

 

January 19, 1807

You are right, my bad. I had it wrong on my calendar. Actually I'm glad. Out of respect for my black friends I didn't fly my Confederate flag today as I usually do one day a year,,,,,,,REL's birthday. Now I will fly it on the 19th. Thanks for noting my mistake.

[Grumps 3,704]

So just so I am clear: If I support a person or a country, then are some of you saying that I automatically support all of the person or country's views? That seems to be opposed to "I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[Grumps 3,704]

7 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

You are right, my bad. I had it wrong on my calendar. Actually I'm glad. Out of respect for my black friends I didn't fly my Confederate flag today as I usually do one day a year,,,,,,,REL's birthday. Now I will fly it on the 19th. Thanks for noting my mistake.

Seems like an easy mistake since this Monday used to be King/Lee Holiday in this state.

[homersapien 11,362]

19 minutes ago, Grumps said:

So just so I am clear: If I support a person or a country, then are some of you saying that I automatically support all of the person or country's views? That seems to be opposed to "I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

You're not clear.

[alexava 6,973]

REL wasn't fighting for what he believed in. He was fighting for the state of Virginia. If that state had been on the other side so would he. He made this clear. 

[Grumps 3,704]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

Then shut up and there won't be any further debate.  If you don't want a "time wasting debate," then don't introduce new items to discuss then act like I'm the one who won't let it go.

What new items did Proud introduce? Was it the quote: "slavery is a moral and political evil in any country"? I don't see what Proud said that is so objectionable. 

[Grumps 3,704]

19 minutes ago, alexava said:

REL wasn't fighting for what he believed in. He was fighting for the state of Virginia. If that state had been on the other side so would he. He made this clear. 

Maybe he believed in the state of Virginia.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Just now, Grumps said:

What new items did Proud introduce? Was it the quote: "slavery is a moral and political evil in any country"? I don't see what Proud said that is so objectionable. 

He said he didn't want to have the debate, then added another quote to bolster his point.  If you want to not have the debate, then you don't add more arguments or supporting references to your existing arguments.  You simply say, "I don't want to rehash this debate, we simply disagree," and let that be it.  If I continue to engage or post additional stuff after that arguing my point, that's on me.

[Grumps 3,704]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

He said he didn't want to have the debate, then added another quote to bolster his point.  If you want to not have the debate, then you don't add more arguments or supporting references to your existing arguments.  You simply say, "I don't want to rehash this debate, we simply disagree," and let that be it.  If I continue to engage or post additional stuff after that arguing my point, that's on me.

Thanks for your reply.

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, Grumps said:

Maybe he believed in the state of Virginia.

Which is a piece of land not an ideal or belief system. I have no dislike for REL but he was no hero for any cause. 

[homersapien 11,362]

15 minutes ago, alexava said:

Which is a piece of land not an ideal or belief system. I have no dislike for REL but he was no hero for any cause. 

Well as a state, Virginia did support the institution of slavery with it's legal system.

How someone could look past that and shift their total allegiance to them from the nation is beyond me.