Don't know how you guys will take it

[tombigbeetiger 223]

3 hours ago, cole256 said:

I guess most will just wait for somebody else to say it, but....we need a major upgrade from Brown/Lang. Either they have to start playing better or like I suggested we move Herron there and Purifoy to the 3. But that's where we are pretty bad at, and right now they are liabilities to the team

unfortunately, you are correct...brown plays pretty good defense, but thats about it...lang is a spot-up shooter only and is soft around the glass

[au302 2,669]

I love the way Horace plays. He can be frustrating but the kid brings energy which is huge and can make a few shots. But yes, Lang looks so lost.  At best he can hit a couple of threes a game but cant pass or play defense. Bryce is frustrating and streaky but when he's on (like mizzou) he can bail us out. Hit a couple big ones last night. Plus, he's a good defender. I say bench Lang and keep Brown. Looks like Laron and Lang are losing minutes as BP cuts down the rotation.

[boomstick 1,315]

@cole256 what are your thoughts on the PG position? There has been a lot of talk about Ronnie moving into the starting role over Harper right now. He's played well, but do you think that would be a good move?

[cole256 17,039]

You may have read where I said Herron and Harper will hit walls in the middle of the season. I think that's what's happening. As far as how to handle it it really depends on Harper's personality. If he can take though coaching and have thick skin I may would shuffle things up. But at the same time the balance of the second team is pretty good right now and they seem to be clicking well so that would be something to consider as well.

I'd probably leave everything as it is

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

Lang clearly is a limited role player. He can give us a handful of minutes a game and hopefully make a few shots. Brown on the other hand is a good player. He is extremely quick and athletic. He can defend and had a great sequence in the last two minutes of the game last night where he denied the ball to their best player, not even letting him get a touch. He also has been shoot better from three since his minutes have increase post suspension. He can give us enough at the 2 to be a good team. He didn't shoot it great last night, but he had 6 rebounds (3 offensive), an assist and a steal to go along with his 8 points.  Not a great line, but not bad for an off night. 

 

Spencer is athletic enough to make up for many of the lapses in assignments with him moving to the four. He did not know where he was supposed to be most of the first half on offense, just kinda floating around. On defense he is great energy, but we clearly lacked proper floor spacing in defensive rebounding assignments. CBP actually said pregame (for all that listened to his interview right before the game) that Spencer had never worked at the four before this week, and the difference between assignments of four and five was huge (his words not mine). Spencer has the skills to play four, but there will be renewed growing pains the more we shuffle the lineup, thankfully it didn't cost us the game last night. 

 

I like Harper starting the Johnson coming off the bench, they have already settled into those roles. Johnson's minutes could be increased possibly, but I still like Harper as our primary point. 

[Auhud08 596]

I dont know much about basketball but i did see those guys playing harder last night. They went after the ball. Went after the boards (except for some lazy mins) and played with much more effort than the past. It also LOOKED to me (again idk basketball) like soencer and wiley are starting to understand what the other is gonna do. I saw a few times where instead of both going for the block one stayed on the man and the other went for the block. It worked almost everytime. 

Last thing i noticed was wiley and the rest of the teams confidence. I think it came with the effort. Once they saw that their effort bred success they kept after it. 

[AUGoo 2,659]

3 hours ago, Tiger said:

I wouldn't mind seeing Lang get the Laron Smith treatment when Purifoy is back. Maybe give him a couple minutes and see if he's on that day and if not keep the better players on the floor. But I agree with others Lang is not bringing anything to the table if his shot isn't on and he is slow to rotate on defense. 

I was on the side of the lineup of Harper, Heron, Purifoy, Spencer, Wiley when WIley came on board and even though we still got crushed on the boards it gave us a fighting chance. I know Pearl said Horace had never played any 4 in his life so I think that's why he has been reluctant to put him there and he will only improve if he stays there. I know it goes against Pearl's philosophy of having his 4 man to have a perimeter skill set/point forward but it may be to our advantage to play that way -- when the matchup dictates it at least.

BTW Big shoutout to Anfernee McLemore getting big, crunchtime minutes and being a key reason for us to win last night. He is undersized but can still block shots and does a good job of going straight up on defense rather than fouling. I'm looking forward to watching him progress over the next few years. Ronnie Johnson also played extremely well and that crucial and-1 at the might have sealed it. Wiley may have played his best game so far. Heron was solid as always. As he adjusts more to the college game he will be even better, which is exciting to think about.

I've seen this mentioned several times.

So, what's the big deal with moving to the 4 position for Spencer?

Why is it such a difficult transition?

[jared52 4,354]

3 hours ago, cole256 said:

If Brown is our best perimeter defender then we can just call this year off now....

Who is?

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

47 minutes ago, AUGoo said:

I've seen this mentioned several times.

So, what's the big deal with moving to the 4 position for Spencer?

Why is it such a difficult transition?

It varies based on systems, but the 4 inbounds the ball after a made basket, so he trails the ball up the court, with his face to the basket rather than his back, will be required to handle the ball at the top of the key routinely and be able to make swing passes, and high/low entry passes. The 5 does virtually none of these things on offense. On defense the 4 will be guarding a different style player than a 5, which will draw him away from the basket more based on defending the above listed items, the 4 also has a more complex system of help defense to know, where the 5's primary help responsibility is to stop penetration and/or contest shots when there is penetration, the 4 has to slide down to cover up the 5's man among other things. Those are just the basic systematic differences, add in the specific alterations for game plan/team specific stuff, and you get an idea that these roles are different. Spencer can adjust to a 4 man, maybe even be a better 4 than a 5, but it won't happen over night. 

Whenever the Wiley, Spencer, Purifoy, Heron, Harper lineup has been discussed, I have mentioned that there will be growing pains with it.  It is a long term play, a gamble that the short term pain is worth the long term benefits.  4 and 3 are very different, 2 and 3 are very similar, 1 and 2 are also very different, each with a learning curve, contrary to popular belief. 

[Tiger 8,817]

1 hour ago, AUGoo said:

I've seen this mentioned several times.

So, what's the big deal with moving to the 4 position for Spencer?

Why is it such a difficult transition?

I can't speak to Horace's previous teams...but Horace's skill set is more Center-ish (despite the lack of size). He has no business being more than 15 feet away from the basket on offense unless he's setting a screen. But in our system especially, the 4 man is counted on to be a playmaker in some regards and that means he's going to need to be doing a lot of work on the perimeter. Basically what Purifoy has been doing/can do for us is what BP wants out of the 4

 

Edit* @JwgreDeuxexplained it way better than me lol

[tigerbrotha12 2,362]

7 hours ago, bigbird said:

You're right that they're the weak link. I thought Spencer did well at the 4. If we keep him there, it adds more rim protection and, IMO, his quickness would create a mismatch against other 4s. I would then move Purifoy to 3 and Heron to the 2.

I loved moving Spencer to 4. He's played Center all his career so far, but I don't see him being a true center. I think his ball handling is good enough for him to drive the lane from the perimeter sometimes. I also think he's a much better rebounder going towards the rim than he is standing in the paint and boxing out. Giving him a bit of freedom to move around the floor is a really good thing IMO. Running out him and Wiley together gives us an edge rebounding. Wiley can score underneath, and Spencer seems to score better when he's not restricted to the paint. I think it's a good lineup.

[au302 2,669]

Agreed. I think it's easy to think that Spencer can only be by the goal and can't really do anything else. Spencer is so athletic that he can handle more movement. He's also capable of creating shots away from the goal even if he doesn't do it often. 

[cole256 17,039]

2 hours ago, AUGoo said:

I've seen this mentioned several times.

So, what's the big deal with moving to the 4 position for Spencer?

Why is it such a difficult transition?

There really isn't. You may hear talk about pearl's system but his system is based on his personnel. He's had offenses that was centered around a 1,2, and a 3. Of course any coach would want a 4 that can do everything but how many of those do you see everyday? See the thing that the other guys who are talking about this is they are all talking generic and when basketball isn't that at all.... There are teams that use different personnel so there will be different mismatches. That's every team, but as far as Herron moving there isn't too much different coach will ask from him at the 4 than the 5

[cole256 17,039]

2 hours ago, jared52 said:

Who is?

It should be Herron or Purifoy easy. If that's not the case when it is the case we will be a much better team

[AUBwins 10,064]

Great discussion @cole256 @bigbird. That made for some good reading. 

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

2 hours ago, cole256 said:

There really isn't. You may hear talk about pearl's system but his system is based on his personnel. He's had offenses that was centered around a 1,2, and a 3. Of course any coach would want a 4 that can do everything but how many of those do you see everyday? See the thing that the other guys who are talking about this is they are all talking generic and when basketball isn't that at all.... There are teams that use different personnel so there will be different mismatches. That's every team, but as far as Herron moving there isn't too much different coach will ask from him at the 4 than the 5

CBP would disagree with you about the difference between 4 and 5. I'm not talking just about generic basketball I'm talking about this team. Spencer will be fine at 4, but it will take a minute for him to play assignments. 

[cole256 17,039]

27 minutes ago, JwgreDeux said:

CBP would disagree with you about the difference between 4 and 5. I'm not talking just about generic basketball I'm talking about this team. Spencer will be fine at 4, but it will take a minute for him to play assignments. 

No I doubt he would at all. To be honest neither you or I know what assignments anybody has but being a big man in general isn't too much difference. You have to be physical, you need to rebound. You have a slight variation as far as range but it's still scoring around the basket. Yeah he'll need to learn a couple more positions in the same plays which more than likely he'd had to learn anyway.

What they will ask from Spencer is the exact thing they've always asked of him. Once again the biggest difference or the hardest transition was Purifoy playing the 4. If the team got through that transition Spencer's is nothing

[au302 2,669]

Pardon my stupidity but I have a question that I'm sure y'all have addressed but I'm not good with deep basketball knowledge. I've heard people say that Purifoy at the 4 is a "matchup nightmare". Would he still be a matchup nightmare at the 3? Maybe I heard this wrong but I'm anxious to see how much of an impact this would have not only on Spencer but also on DP

[CameronCrazy 1,058]

I completely agree about Brown & Lang. My starting 5 the rest of the year would be...

PG - Harper, SG - Heron, SF - Purifoy, PF - Spencer, C - Wiley

[cole256 17,039]

1 hour ago, au302 said:

Pardon my stupidity but I have a question that I'm sure y'all have addressed but I'm not good with deep basketball knowledge. I've heard people say that Purifoy at the 4 is a "matchup nightmare". Would he still be a matchup nightmare at the 3? Maybe I heard this wrong but I'm anxious to see how much of an impact this would have not only on Spencer but also on DP

Theoretically if we were playing a traditional style team you'd figure Purifoy would have a mismatch by having a bigger slower guy on him....theoretically. But the opposing team could easily play a zone, or simply tell one of their better defenders to stay with Purifoy. Then there is the other side where that if it is a bigger stronger guy now Purifoy has the mismatch trying to defend the post and rebounding against a bigger stronger guy. Also Purifoy has been a little too happy with the 3....by constantly shooting those you are bailing out whatever mismatch you had to be honest. 

At the 3 position depending on who is guarding him, he may not have the quickness mismatch, (which really doesn't mean too much if you're shooting a bunch of 3's) but with his size, he may be bigger and stronger than the guy. Size advantage may help with rebounding as well. So there are pro's and con's to the situation and you have to take advantage of the situation. 

Line Lang usually has size advantage, but he's a spot up shooter so it doesn't mean anything. 

[AUGoo 2,659]

Thanks all for the education.

 

[cole256 17,039]

18 hours ago, JwgreDeux said:

Lang clearly is a limited role player. He can give us a handful of minutes a game and hopefully make a few shots. Brown on the other hand is a good player. He is extremely quick and athletic. He can defend and had a great sequence in the last two minutes of the game last night where he denied the ball to their best player, not even letting him get a touch. He also has been shoot better from three since his minutes have increase post suspension. He can give us enough at the 2 to be a good team. He didn't shoot it great last night, but he had 6 rebounds (3 offensive), an assist and a steal to go along with his 8 points.  Not a great line, but not bad for an off night. 

 

Spencer is athletic enough to make up for many of the lapses in assignments with him moving to the four. He did not know where he was supposed to be most of the first half on offense, just kinda floating around. On defense he is great energy, but we clearly lacked proper floor spacing in defensive rebounding assignments. CBP actually said pregame (for all that listened to his interview right before the game) that Spencer had never worked at the four before this week, and the difference between assignments of four and five was huge (his words not mine). Spencer has the skills to play four, but there will be renewed growing pains the more we shuffle the lineup, thankfully it didn't cost us the game last night. 

 

I like Harper starting the Johnson coming off the bench, they have already settled into those roles. Johnson's minutes could be increased possibly, but I still like Harper as our primary point. 

This is the question to ask yourself if he is a good player, how many SEC teams would trade their guy for our guy? Not one. There isn't one team that would give up their 2 for Brown.....

If Brown was so quick and athletic then he wouldn't struggle so much at scoring. He's quick and athletic to normal guys but to his peers he's neither. Did you watch him against Kentucky? When playing guys that are quick and athletic he played behind then the entire game. Brown on a good team could be a serviceable back up. If you match him up against a guy that's not a threat then yes we can make pretend he's a defender....most times to earn a title defender you can show the stats of a good offensive player then show his stats after the defender and you see a difference....And then this doesn't necessarily mean it was him, you'd need to show a trend, but you damn sure can't do that with Brown.  And that line wasn't for an off night. This is one of his better games....

But to be honest talking about Spencer's growing pains and saying lucky it didn't cost us a Game is laughable while at the same time trying to pump up Brown....Spencer is much more important to this team, he has affects the game more. If you're not worried about Brown there is no need to be worried about Spencer

[AuburnNTexas 7,127]

If we do get to the point where we start Harper PG, Herron SG, Purifoy SF, Spencer PF, Wiley C then to really take advantage of the size mismatch that Purifoy would have most of time he will need to post up some inside right now he either drives or settles for the three.

In KY game we attacked more on offense and did not settle for the three and when we were in our runs against LSU same thing and because of the attack first we also got better looks for our threes. When we seem to get in trouble is when all we do is pass around the outside nobody attacks and we settle for a contested three. Dunans and Herron have been the best at keeping us in attack mode. Johnson has also done a good job attacking in last two games.

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

20 hours ago, cole256 said:

No I doubt he would at all. To be honest neither you or I know what assignments anybody has but being a big man in general isn't too much difference. You have to be physical, you need to rebound. You have a slight variation as far as range but it's still scoring around the basket. Yeah he'll need to learn a couple more positions in the same plays which more than likely he'd had to learn anyway.

What they will ask from Spencer is the exact thing they've always asked of him. Once again the biggest difference or the hardest transition was Purifoy playing the 4. If the team got through that transition Spencer's is nothing

Listen for yourself from Coach Bruce Pearl himself: http://www.auburntigers.com/collegesportslive/?media=544027 CBP interview starts at the 23 minute mark, discussion on Spencer at the 27:45 mark, and I quote, "It's an enourmous difference, I'd say the difference between 4 and 5 is as big as any in our system is as big as any position out there...5 - 4 is about as different as it gets" 

 

[cole256 17,039]

Yeah I know coach talk and all that but like I said you can only do as much as the players you have, there isn't anything he can really ask from Spencer than he could ask from any big man on our team period. This is also the same thing he said about Purifoy playing the 4 and you was all for it. Saying our chemistry wasn't right when the chemistry has been a work in progress is misleading. Just learning where to be shouldn't really be a huge deal, he's not that strong of a scorer so you'd be stupid to ask him to score more, you'll have to be more mobile and agile on defense on occasion which is his strength. If he needs to improve rebounding he needed to do that at both positions. We can make pretend all day but you don't see guys who can dominate one of those positions but suck at the other....