South Carolina Post Game Thread

[cole256 17,039]

3 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

That post left me shaking my head too, and I'm an admitted neophyte when it comes to basketball (even if I played when I was a kid). I doubt you'll hear anything about replacing staff from the basketball gurus around here.

As for coach bringing the hammer down... you can bring the hammer down all you want and it won't matter if the kids don't execute. If that's one thing I've learned about managing millennials, it's that they do not respond well to negative reinforcement.

It's sad to say but it's one of two things, the kids that had discipline in their lives usually take to coaching well, or the kids that see basketball as the only way out and want it as bad as anything they have ever wanted can take it....

But there are special cases. I myself was raised very strict, but I just recently the last couple of years experienced how hard taking hard coaching can be. It may sound arrogant but I've been good at everything I've ever done. Yeah I made mistakes but it wasn't a big deal to fix it because I wasn't that bad. In school I could get in trouble and still make good grades. I was a pretty big time athlete so I could make up for things just by being more athletic....

Then I got this nuclear engineering job and I'm surrounded by some of the smartest people ever and the level is so high that I had to start studying, and good isn't ever good enough because they want perfection, but who is perfect?

So at first I would be so down but it was because of expectations for myself and it was the first time in my ENTIRE life that it's not just coming easy for me. It took a little time but now I'm good. I imagine when stepping up to big time basketball they go through something similar like that

[cole256 17,039]

I'm usually very big on not wanting to hear a youth excuse but seriously our most talented players are freshmen....And our vets are two year players. It really didn't get any younger than that. Our seniors only has had one and two years in the system

[AU64 10,122]

11 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I'm usually very big on not wanting to hear a youth excuse but seriously our most talented players are freshmen....And our vets are two year players. It really didn't get any younger than that. Our seniors only has had one and two years in the system

Seems this is a circular argument.....most talented players are freshmen, coach is in year 3 and yet only has a couple players from last year and none from the year before who are able to lead the team or make serious contributions....so he is playing freshmen who have trouble being consistent and the explanation is that they are young....and also lack size other than Wiley.   

 Is next year the year when we should have serious expectations and will quit making excuses about ineffective defense and inconsistent effort ?   

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

I'm sorry but it shouldn't take 5 years to just make the NIT. I know Bruce Pearl inherited a bad situation here but his decision making on how he's gone about building the program is not bearing the results that they should and isn't building a stable foundation. 

 Look at the team that curb stomped us last night, South Carolina. Frank Martin is in his 5th year at South Carolina and they appear to be a lock to get an NCAA Tournament bid this year and they also should have made the tournament last year with the record that they had but were a lock for the NIT at least. South Carolina's not a basketball powerhouse. South Carolina's and Auburn's basketball programs are not that much different as far as tradition and historical success. South Carolina hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 2004, so it's not like Frank Martin walked into a good situation either. The difference I see in where both programs are at is how the programs have been built. Frank Martin didn't rely on JUCO's his first couple of seasons at South Carolina. He took his lumps with a young roster and used the experienced players he inherited to build the program early on. Now they're reaping the rewards of building the program up to where they have quality depth with talented and experienced players that were part of the early struggles but are now leading the team to go along with the addition of the young talent. Because of that depth that's been built, South Carolina's young talent is gaining experience without being relied on to be the core of the team.

We have talent now in year 3 under Bruce Pearl, albeit inexperienced but lack depth. But that falls back on Bruce Pearl. I don't like how Pearl has chosen to build the program. The first 2 years were fill in JUCO squads that were flops but now we're in year 3 but it's basically year 1 because of the inexperience and youth on the team and lack of depth because of how Pearl chose to build the program. Why wasn't Pearl recruiting mostly high school players instead of JUCO's the first 2 yeas in order to build depth? The results the first 2 years were still bad even with the JUCO's that were brought in, so I fail to see an excuse for why we wasted the first 2 years not establishing the program instead of recruiting players that were going to be here 3-4 years, so that by year 3 we might have had some experienced players going into this season with the addition of the young talent we have now. Instead, most of our roster is made up of inexperience and youth. 

Flame away...............

[cole256 17,039]

28 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Seems this is a circular argument.....most talented players are freshmen, coach is in year 3 and yet only has a couple players from last year and none from the year before who are able to lead the team or make serious contributions....so he is playing freshmen who have trouble being consistent and the explanation is that they are young....and also lack size other than Wiley.   

 Is next year the year when we should have serious expectations and will quit making excuses about ineffective defense and inconsistent effort ?   

You should expect effort at all times. But as far as being effective, you play harder and faster when you know exactly what you are doing. But no you really can't expect putting a group of guys together who haven't played with each other or against this level of competition and think they are going to be awesome. It's just not logical. If this year we had canty and Tyler Harris we'd be a better team. But we don't. 

[cole256 17,039]

33 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

I'm sorry but it shouldn't take 5 years to just make the NIT. I know Bruce Pearl inherited a bad situation here but his decision making on how he's gone about building the program is not bearing the results that they should and isn't building a stable foundation. 

 Look at the team that curb stomped us last night, South Carolina. Frank Martin is in his 5th year at South Carolina and they appear to be a lock to get an NCAA Tournament bid this year and they also should have made the tournament last year with the record that they had but were a lock for the NIT at least. South Carolina's not a basketball powerhouse. South Carolina's and Auburn's basketball programs are not that much different as far as tradition and historical success. South Carolina hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 2004, so it's not like Frank Martin walked into a good situation either. The difference I see in where both programs are at is how the programs have been built. Frank Martin didn't rely on JUCO's his first couple of seasons at South Carolina. He took his lumps with a young roster and used the experienced players he inherited to build the program early on. Now they're reaping the rewards of building the program up to where they have quality depth with talented and experienced players that were part of the early struggles but are now leading the team to go along with the addition of the young talent. Because of that depth that's been built, South Carolina's young talent is gaining experience without being relied on to be the core of the team.

We have talent now in year 3 under Bruce Pearl, albeit inexperienced but lack depth. But that falls back on Bruce Pearl. I don't like how Pearl has chosen to build the program. The first 2 years were fill in JUCO squads that were flops but now we're in year 3 but it's basically year 1 because of the inexperience and youth on the team and lack of depth because of how Pearl chose to build the program. Why wasn't Pearl recruiting mostly high school players instead of JUCO's the first 2 yeas in order to build depth? The results the first 2 years were still bad even with the JUCO's that were brought in, so I fail to see an excuse for why we wasted the first 2 years not establishing the program instead of recruiting players that were going to be here 3-4 years, so that by year 3 we might have had some experienced players going into this season with the addition of the young talent we have now. Instead, most of our roster is made up of inexperience and youth. 

Flame away...............

You don't see the flaw in this rant? 

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

3 minutes ago, cole256 said:

You don't see the flaw in this rant? 

Go ahead, tell me.

[AU64 10,122]

Meanwhile Johnny Jones is in year 5 at LSU and they are playing worse defense than AU and getting hammered by UF tonight.   Will  he survive the year?

[boomstick 1,315]

11 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

I'm sorry but it shouldn't take 5 years to just make the NIT. I know Bruce Pearl inherited a bad situation here but his decision making on how he's gone about building the program is not bearing the results that they should and isn't building a stable foundation. 

 Look at the team that curb stomped us last night, South Carolina. Frank Martin is in his 5th year at South Carolina and they appear to be a lock to get an NCAA Tournament bid this year and they also should have made the tournament last year with the record that they had but were a lock for the NIT at least. South Carolina's not a basketball powerhouse. South Carolina's and Auburn's basketball programs are not that much different as far as tradition and historical success. South Carolina hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 2004, so it's not like Frank Martin walked into a good situation either. The difference I see in where both programs are at is how the programs have been built. Frank Martin didn't rely on JUCO's his first couple of seasons at South Carolina. He took his lumps with a young roster and used the experienced players he inherited to build the program early on. Now they're reaping the rewards of building the program up to where they have quality depth with talented and experienced players that were part of the early struggles but are now leading the team to go along with the addition of the young talent. Because of that depth that's been built, South Carolina's young talent is gaining experience without being relied on to be the core of the team.

We have talent now in year 3 under Bruce Pearl, albeit inexperienced but lack depth. But that falls back on Bruce Pearl. I don't like how Pearl has chosen to build the program. The first 2 years were fill in JUCO squads that were flops but now we're in year 3 but it's basically year 1 because of the inexperience and youth on the team and lack of depth because of how Pearl chose to build the program. Why wasn't Pearl recruiting mostly high school players instead of JUCO's the first 2 yeas in order to build depth? The results the first 2 years were still bad even with the JUCO's that were brought in, so I fail to see an excuse for why we wasted the first 2 years not establishing the program instead of recruiting players that were going to be here 3-4 years, so that by year 3 we might have had some experienced players going into this season with the addition of the young talent we have now. Instead, most of our roster is made up of inexperience and youth. 

Flame away...............

So if Pearl gets us in the NIT this season or next and the NCAA Tournament in year 4 or 5, he will have accomplished the same as Frank Martin and possibly done it sooner than Martin. Sounds like Pearl is on the right track if Frank Martin is his comparison, even with how Bruce constructed the roster.

The thing about how Bruce chose to build the roster is the roster was completely depleted and he had to take what he could in year 1. The best three returning players in year 1 were KT Harrell, Malcolm Canada, and Jordon Granger. Seriously. His show-cause basically afforded him no time to recruit and build relationships with high schoolers in his first year. In year 2, he started developing those relationships and signed some pretty good HS players. But his relationships really shined in year 3 when he signed perhaps the best recruiting class in Auburn history. And the talent coming in next year is extremely good and all HS guys (for now). I think he's built the roster and this program the only way he could while still trying to put a competitive product on the court. I'm sure he would've liked to build this team with HS kids from the start, but he didn't have that ability, given his circumstances.

[AuburnNTexas 7,127]

11 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

I'm sorry but it shouldn't take 5 years to just make the NIT. I know Bruce Pearl inherited a bad situation here but his decision making on how he's gone about building the program is not bearing the results that they should and isn't building a stable foundation. 

 Look at the team that curb stomped us last night, South Carolina. Frank Martin is in his 5th year at South Carolina and they appear to be a lock to get an NCAA Tournament bid this year and they also should have made the tournament last year with the record that they had but were a lock for the NIT at least. South Carolina's not a basketball powerhouse. South Carolina's and Auburn's basketball programs are not that much different as far as tradition and historical success. South Carolina hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 2004, so it's not like Frank Martin walked into a good situation either. The difference I see in where both programs are at is how the programs have been built. Frank Martin didn't rely on JUCO's his first couple of seasons at South Carolina. He took his lumps with a young roster and used the experienced players he inherited to build the program early on. Now they're reaping the rewards of building the program up to where they have quality depth with talented and experienced players that were part of the early struggles but are now leading the team to go along with the addition of the young talent. Because of that depth that's been built, South Carolina's young talent is gaining experience without being relied on to be the core of the team.

We have talent now in year 3 under Bruce Pearl, albeit inexperienced but lack depth. But that falls back on Bruce Pearl. I don't like how Pearl has chosen to build the program. The first 2 years were fill in JUCO squads that were flops but now we're in year 3 but it's basically year 1 because of the inexperience and youth on the team and lack of depth because of how Pearl chose to build the program. Why wasn't Pearl recruiting mostly high school players instead of JUCO's the first 2 yeas in order to build depth? The results the first 2 years were still bad even with the JUCO's that were brought in, so I fail to see an excuse for why we wasted the first 2 years not establishing the program instead of recruiting players that were going to be here 3-4 years, so that by year 3 we might have had some experienced players going into this season with the addition of the young talent we have now. Instead, most of our roster is made up of inexperience and youth. 

Flame away...............

Not going to flame you as some of your points are legitimate. First year Pearl came in very late so really didn't have time to find and recruit HS players he had to take what was left. Second year he still felt he needed to just fill gaps I think he would have been better off in second year getting HS Players that were not as good as last two years but developing them so we would have some experienced players this year. The other side of that is the second year is where we made a mini run in SEC tourney which might have helped him recruit some of last years players. The State of South Carolina has some good basketball players and it is also next to North Carolina and Georgia giving it three areas with a lot of Talent. Auburn has had to go looking more as we are getting players from around the country. Since you can basically discount recruiting in the first year based on when he was hired and his probation next year will be the equivalent to compare SC this year and Auburn. Also Pearl had been out of coaching he did not have recruits he had been working with for years when he came to Auburn Martin did. I don't know if we will be as good as SC but next year Thornwell, Notice and Key will all be gone he has recruited well but these are key players lets see how good they are next year withhout them.

[augolf1716 21,093]

11 hours ago, AU64 said:

Meanwhile Johnny Jones is in year 5 at LSU and they are playing worse defense than AU and getting hammered by UF tonight.   Will  he survive the year?

Don't think so 

[plainstiger94 0]

11 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

I'm sorry but it shouldn't take 5 years to just make the NIT. I know Bruce Pearl inherited a bad situation here but his decision making on how he's gone about building the program is not bearing the results that they should and isn't building a stable foundation. 

 Look at the team that curb stomped us last night, South Carolina. Frank Martin is in his 5th year at South Carolina and they appear to be a lock to get an NCAA Tournament bid this year and they also should have made the tournament last year with the record that they had but were a lock for the NIT at least. South Carolina's not a basketball powerhouse. South Carolina's and Auburn's basketball programs are not that much different as far as tradition and historical success. South Carolina hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 2004, so it's not like Frank Martin walked into a good situation either. The difference I see in where both programs are at is how the programs have been built. Frank Martin didn't rely on JUCO's his first couple of seasons at South Carolina. He took his lumps with a young roster and used the experienced players he inherited to build the program early on. Now they're reaping the rewards of building the program up to where they have quality depth with talented and experienced players that were part of the early struggles but are now leading the team to go along with the addition of the young talent. Because of that depth that's been built, South Carolina's young talent is gaining experience without being relied on to be the core of the team.

We have talent now in year 3 under Bruce Pearl, albeit inexperienced but lack depth. But that falls back on Bruce Pearl. I don't like how Pearl has chosen to build the program. The first 2 years were fill in JUCO squads that were flops but now we're in year 3 but it's basically year 1 because of the inexperience and youth on the team and lack of depth because of how Pearl chose to build the program. Why wasn't Pearl recruiting mostly high school players instead of JUCO's the first 2 yeas in order to build depth? The results the first 2 years were still bad even with the JUCO's that were brought in, so I fail to see an excuse for why we wasted the first 2 years not establishing the program instead of recruiting players that were going to be here 3-4 years, so that by year 3 we might have had some experienced players going into this season with the addition of the young talent we have now. Instead, most of our roster is made up of inexperience and youth. 

Flame away...............

This is an odd post. Shows a lot of good knowledge of how a basketball program is built but somehow reaches a conclusion that isn't at all implied in the post?

[Tiger 8,817]

I think some of our basketball fans don't understand how deep of a hole our program was in before Bruce came in. We seriously might have been in the worst shape out of all power 5 schools. We had a freaking point shaver on our team. IMO Pearl is the best coach AU has ever had from a sheer coaching ability standpoint. His resume speaks for itself. He has never failed to win and once our roster starts filling out next year and the year after we are going to be really good.

The SEC as a whole is improving though. I'd argue, as a whole, there are better/more accomplished coaches leading SEC basketball programs than there are leading the football programs so that will make our road a little tougher but Pearl had UT positioned as one of the top 8 or so programs in the entire nation at one time and he's starting to bring in the same caliber of players to AU. I really think Auburn Arena can be renamed to Pearl Arena when it's all said and done if we let him build -- and he doesn't jump ship.

[cole256 17,039]

14 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I think some of our basketball fans don't understand how deep of a hole our program was in before Bruce came in. We seriously might have been in the worst shape out of all power 5 schools. We had a freaking point shaver on our team. IMO Pearl is the best coach AU has ever had from a sheer coaching ability standpoint. His resume speaks for itself. He has never failed to win and once our roster starts filling out next year and the year after we are going to be really good.

The SEC as a whole is improving though. I'd argue, as a whole, there are better/more accomplished coaches leading SEC basketball programs than there are leading the football programs so that will make our road a little tougher but Pearl had UT positioned as one of the top 8 or so programs in the entire nation at one time and he's starting to bring in the same caliber of players to AU. I really think Auburn Arena can be renamed to Pearl Arena when it's all said and done if we let him build -- and he doesn't jump ship.

They don't, and they don't seem to understand how different recruiting is with basketball. One person means so much more in basketball

[AU64 10,122]

5 minutes ago, cole256 said:

They don't, and they don't seem to understand how different recruiting is with basketball. One person means so much more in basketball

True...which means it should be easier to turn a BB program around...especially for a big name coach?    

BP was probably the best known coach (best record or whatever) to enter the SEC for several years and probably had a leg up on most of the league.  More recently though Barnes and Howland brought pretty good records to their jobs....will be interesting to see how they develop their teams.

Thing is, somewhere on this forum Mikey keeps up with attrition for he football team but I've not seen a similar list for basketball covering the past 3 years...%age wise it must be staggering.  

JMO but it is a shame that we have so few experienced players on the squad...much less taking a leadership role this year.

[cole256 17,039]

It can't be easier when you don't get the players....Like I've mentioned how we missed on a player named John petty this year. Believe me when I tell you he will be a force. Avery Johnson is going to be very hard to recruit against though. There's another guy from Georgia named Collin sexton that they got as well.....that big guy from Kentucky Bam whatever his name is....we went after him, but calipari came and got him....what can you do? Josh Jackson either came to visit or something like that he's a program changer, will be a top 5 pick this year but Kansas got him. We don't have the same prestige in basketball as we do in football. 

Also I do get aggravated with giving too many scholarships to walk ons but when I voiced that, not trying to start an argument with you, you were one of the main people who had a problem with me saying that. And you were happy about it....I don't understand how you can have positions like that and at the same time be disappointed with the team. You can't have players that suck and then complain about not being a winning program...John wooden couldn't make this team a sweet 16 team.....Wiley is good but the fact that he can come straight from high school and be a top 2 player on our team speaks volumes...

[Tiger 8,817]

39 minutes ago, cole256 said:

It can't be easier when you don't get the players....Like I've mentioned how we missed on a player named John petty this year. Believe me when I tell you he will be a force. Avery Johnson is going to be very hard to recruit against though. There's another guy from Georgia named Collin sexton that they got as well.....that big guy from Kentucky Bam whatever his name is....we went after him, but calipari came and got him....what can you do? Josh Jackson either came to visit or something like that he's a program changer, will be a top 5 pick this year but Kansas got him. We don't have the same prestige in basketball as we do in football. 

Also I do get aggravated with giving too many scholarships to walk ons but when I voiced that, not trying to start an argument with you, you were one of the main people who had a problem with me saying that. And you were happy about it....I don't understand how you can have positions like that and at the same time be disappointed with the team. You can't have players that suck and then complain about not being a winning program...John wooden couldn't make this team a sweet 16 team.....Wiley is good but the fact that he can come straight from high school and be a top 2 player on our team speaks volumes...

So true in bold

[AU64 10,122]

1 hour ago, cole256 said:

It can't be easier when you don't get the players....Like I've mentioned how we missed on a player named John petty this year. Believe me when I tell you he will be a force. Avery Johnson is going to be very hard to recruit against though. There's another guy from Georgia named Collin sexton that they got as well.....that big guy from Kentucky Bam whatever his name is....we went after him, but calipari came and got him....what can you do? Josh Jackson either came to visit or something like that he's a program changer, will be a top 5 pick this year but Kansas got him. We don't have the same prestige in basketball as we do in football. 

Also I do get aggravated with giving too many scholarships to walk ons but when I voiced that, not trying to start an argument with you, you were one of the main people who had a problem with me saying that. And you were happy about it....I don't understand how you can have positions like that and at the same time be disappointed with the team. You can't have players that suck and then complain about not being a winning program...John wooden couldn't make this team a sweet 16 team.....Wiley is good but the fact that he can come straight from high school and be a top 2 player on our team speaks volumes...

I figure giving scholarships to walk-ons is just about the same having money to spend and nothing to spend it on....so why not help a walk-on?   We need a certain number of them anyway to fill out the roster for practices and to keep the APR in shape and that's an incentive for the better prospects....and Lord knows, there have been times when we actually needed them on the floor.    AND....I doubt a "walk-on scholarship" has ever deprived AU or any other school of a scholarship that could have been used to recruit a serous contributor. 

Meanwhile...guess BP has to choose his battles as far recruiting against the more prestigious programs. ...but he pulled some good ones this year...maybe a change of strategy or just having a better story to tell ?

[WeagleTheBeagle 60]

2 hours ago, cole256 said:

They don't, and they don't seem to understand how different recruiting is with basketball. One person means so much more in basketball

Listen man, no point in being condescending to the folks who are questioning some things about our Bball program.  May not be your intention but its coming across that way.  There have been legitimate points on both sides and good discussion is what this site is about.  We all love Bruce but its still ok to question some of his decisions.  And we all understand how basketball recruiting is different than football.  Its debatable as to "how bad" of a situation we were in when Bruce was hired.  I wouldn't argue with those claiming we were the worst program in the SEC but all of P5 may be a bit much.  Regardless, playing the best game of the year followed by the worst game of the year will naturally generate some concerns, especially since we are well into the season.  

[plainstiger94 0]

Cole is spot on here. The Bruce Pearl talent infusion into this program is undeniable, but we haven't gotten a top 10 caliber program-changing player that the Kentucky's and Kansas's and now apparently Alabama's have been getting. Wiley is the best we have gotten and you will continue to see him bolster this team. But the rest of our guys need seasoning.

[AuburnNTexas 7,127]

3 hours ago, AU64 said:

True...which means it should be easier to turn a BB program around...especially for a big name coach?    

BP was probably the best known coach (best record or whatever) to enter the SEC for several years and probably had a leg up on most of the league.  More recently though Barnes and Howland brought pretty good records to their jobs....will be interesting to see how they develop their teams.

Thing is, somewhere on this forum Mikey keeps up with attrition for he football team but I've not seen a similar list for basketball covering the past 3 years...%age wise it must be staggering.  

JMO but it is a shame that we have so few experienced players on the squad...much less taking a leadership role this year.

Remember BP had been out of coaching for a while. The coaches who people are comparing him to transferred from other programs and already had kids they had built relationships with. First year he came in very late so no chance second year he was competing for kids other coaches had built relationships over multiple years. So really last year was first time he was recruiting kids he had been on for more than a year even than it was only two years. This years class that really included Wiley originally was kids he had been on for 3 years.

Now that he has the multiple year relationship I expect to continue to see very good classes. Next year we will have some experienced Juniors guys like Spencer and Brown. Multiple second years players who will know the system and a couple of real good looking Freshman who will be joining a more experienced team so will be getting help from both the coaches and their more experienced teammates.

To many people seem to discount the fact that BP did not have any player relationships when he arrived he had to start from scratch. 

[doc4aday 1,887]

I am proud of this team. They have improve vastly since coach Pearl took over a few years back. We will lose some more SEC games this season, but will win some more before the season ends. We could be an NIT team or even make it to the 64 NCAA tourney.

[fishepa 1,895]

We have 3 things that don't contribute well to winning basketball games.

1.  Abysmal Defense

2.  Poor Rebounding

3.  Poor foul shooting

The abysmal defense and poor rebounding leads to at least 10-20 more second chance points for our opponents every game.  

[fishepa 1,895]

1 hour ago, doc4aday said:

I am proud of this team. They have improve vastly since coach Pearl took over a few years back. We will lose some more SEC games this season, but will win some more before the season ends. We could be an NIT team or even make it to the 64 NCAA tourney.

The only way we make it to the NCAA tourney would be to run the table in the SEC tournament.

[AU64 10,122]

2 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Remember BP had been out of coaching for a while. The coaches who people are comparing him to transferred from other programs and already had kids they had built relationships with. First year he came in very late so no chance second year he was competing for kids other coaches had built relationships over multiple years. So really last year was first time he was recruiting kids he had been on for more than a year even than it was only two years. This years class that really included Wiley originally was kids he had been on for 3 years.

Now that he has the multiple year relationship I expect to continue to see very good classes. Next year we will have some experienced Juniors guys like Spencer and Brown. Multiple second years players who will know the system and a couple of real good looking Freshman who will be joining a more experienced team so will be getting help from both the coaches and their more experienced teammates.

To many people seem to discount the fact that BP did not have any player relationships when he arrived he had to start from scratch. 

Think I made this point quite a while back and I don't think it is just recruiting ....game changed while he was away....and kids have changed too....might be taking a while to get adjusted to all of that though we still need to figure out how to deal with the attrition issues.  Just wondering how many we lose after this season?