South Carolina Post Game Thread

[doc4aday 1,887]

1 hour ago, fishepa said:

The only way we make it to the NCAA tourney would be to run the table in the SEC tournament.

We have a chance to win 20 games if we play like we played against the turds and Lsu, we certainly have a chance to make 20 games. I cannot see us not being in the field of 64 or NIT. Most power 5 schools that win 20 games will either get chosen for the NIT and possibly the field of 64. Let's give this team the credit they deserve. CBP is an excellent coach and we are darn lucky to have him. I hope he stays with us for the next 12 or more seasons. JJ somehow got it right with hiring CPB for our BB program.

[AuburnNTexas 7,140]

I think you missed my point. I think being away the impact on recruiting is he didn't have long term relationships with possible recruits as he has built those relationships his recruiting has gotten better. many of these players you start talking to in 8th and 9th Grade that means that you won't sign them for 3 or 4 more years. As you have seen last two years he has recruited better players.

As for attrition most of that was stop gap players until he could get in players he had been recruiting a while. All programs will have some attrition if a player can't earn enough PT but from here out I think that will be the type of normal attrition you will see. Hopefully the next type of attrition we will see is players who really are talented enough leaving  early to go to the NBA. That helps recruit the better players.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

11 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Not going to flame you as some of your points are legitimate. First year Pearl came in very late so really didn't have time to find and recruit HS players he had to take what was left. Second year he still felt he needed to just fill gaps I think he would have been better off in second year getting HS Players that were not as good as last two years but developing them so we would have some experienced players this year. The other side of that is the second year is where we made a mini run in SEC tourney which might have helped him recruit some of last years players. The State of South Carolina has some good basketball players and it is also next to North Carolina and Georgia giving it three areas with a lot of Talent. Auburn has had to go looking more as we are getting players from around the country. Since you can basically discount recruiting in the first year based on when he was hired and his probation next year will be the equivalent to compare SC this year and Auburn. Also Pearl had been out of coaching he did not have recruits he had been working with for years when he came to Auburn Martin did. I don't know if we will be as good as SC but next year Thornwell, Notice and Key will all be gone he has recruited well but these are key players lets see how good they are next year withhout them.

Thornwell, Notice, and McKie were all high school recruits and have been there for 4 years. I think South Carolina will be fine next year. They're still going to have Dozier, Silva, and Kotsar, who are 3 of the top 5 scorers right now.

Also, South Carolina hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 2004 and haven't made a post-season(NIT) tournament since 2009. I find it silly to act like South Carolina has a significant recruiting advantage compared to Auburn. If that were the case, then why hasn't South Carolina made the NCAA Tournament since 2004? South Carolina had 5 straight losing seasons until the 2014-15 season.

Frank Martin coached at Kansas State before he came to South Carolina. So he came into a new recruiting area at South Carolina. Bruce Pearl coached at Tennessee and in the SEC, so coming to Auburn wasn't as big of an adjustment in terms of knowing the recruiting area. 

Frank Martin also recruits international players, not just U.S. players. He gets high school recruits from overseas. Last year he had 2 Lithuanian players and Michael Carrera who is Venezuelan. This year's South Carolina team has an Australian - Ran Tut, and a player from Estonia - Kotsar. Frank Martin is recruiting outside of the state to fill his roster. There's only 4 players on South Carolina's current roster from South Carolina and one of them is a walk-on. Thornwell, Notice, and Dozier are the only 3 scholarship players from the state.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

10 hours ago, Tiger said:

I think some of our basketball fans don't understand how deep of a hole our program was in before Bruce came in. We seriously might have been in the worst shape out of all power 5 schools. We had a freaking point shaver on our team. IMO Pearl is the best coach AU has ever had from a sheer coaching ability standpoint. His resume speaks for itself. He has never failed to win and once our roster starts filling out next year and the year after we are going to be really good.

The SEC as a whole is improving though. I'd argue, as a whole, there are better/more accomplished coaches leading SEC basketball programs than there are leading the football programs so that will make our road a little tougher but Pearl had UT positioned as one of the top 8 or so programs in the entire nation at one time and he's starting to bring in the same caliber of players to AU. I really think Auburn Arena can be renamed to Pearl Arena when it's all said and done if we let him build -- and he doesn't jump ship.

Yes Pearl stepped into a bad situation. But It's a double edged sword though when Pearl recruits JUCO's and gets transfers for 2 to 3 years and doesn't retain players. We've already lost some of Pearl's high school recruits. 

Jack Purchase
Trayvon Reed
New Williams

Then the patchwork of losing Canty, Mason, Bowers, Harris, and Ross-Miller.

Think about this: T.J. Lang is the only player from Pearl's 1st class that's still on the roster. After this season 3 of the 6 players in Pearl's 2nd class(2015) will be gone. Harris and New Williams have already left, and Dunans will be gone after this season. In the 2016 class, LaRon Smith and Ronnie Johnson will be gone after this season. We're losing as many players as we're retaining. Every year it's a new team and that affects team chemistry. The constant turnover also creates a depth problem.

We're being forced to play mostly Freshman this season because of the decision to rely so heavily on JUCO's and transfers these past 3 years. We all knew Pearl's first 2-3 years would be a struggle and we would take our lumps but we're in year 3 and we're just now trying to build some depth and get experience. We could have had depth and some experience on the roster had we focused more on recruiting high school players and developing them instead of getting so many JUCO's and transfers.

It's still too early to proclaim Bruce Pearl as the best coach we've ever had. I'm still waiting to see Pearl's actual coaching ability because the team has lacked fundamentals for years and Pearl's hiring still hasn't addressed that problem. IMO, Cliff Ellis is the best coach we've had. He got more out of his talent and consistently put a competitive product on the court, We made post-season tournaments in 7 out of 10 years under Ellis. 

[cole256 17,043]

So you'd rather he just take less talented players and lose now? Then when those players get older and they still aren't that good and we lose in the future you wouldn't have anything to complain about?

And want canty theoretically supposed to be here this year? And a player like him is one of the few pieces that we are missing.....

[cole256 17,043]

20 hours ago, WeagleTheBeagle said:

Listen man, no point in being condescending to the folks who are questioning some things about our Bball program.  May not be your intention but its coming across that way.  There have been legitimate points on both sides and good discussion is what this site is about.  We all love Bruce but its still ok to question some of his decisions.  And we all understand how basketball recruiting is different than football.  Its debatable as to "how bad" of a situation we were in when Bruce was hired.  I wouldn't argue with those claiming we were the worst program in the SEC but all of P5 may be a bit much.  Regardless, playing the best game of the year followed by the worst game of the year will naturally generate some concerns, especially since we are well into the season.  

I wasn't even talking to you or had read a post from you. But you can't speak for everybody. And as you said stuff can be debatable. In your mind having one of our best games then one of our worst generate concerns. To me it was expected from my experiences with basketball so no concern at all. Well into the season is when the first year players are going to hit the walls and guess what? We rely like 90% on first year players.....

[AU64 10,122]

12 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Yes Pearl stepped into a bad situation. But It's a double edged sword though when Pearl recruits JUCO's and gets transfers for 2 to 3 years and doesn't retain players. We've already lost some of Pearl's high school recruits. 

Jack Purchase
Trayvon Reed
New Williams

Then the patchwork of losing Canty, Mason, Bowers, Harris, and Ross-Miller.

Think about this: T.J. Lang is the only player from Pearl's 1st class that's still on the roster. After this season 3 of the 6 players in Pearl's 2nd class(2015) will be gone. Harris and New Williams have already left, and Dunans will be gone after this season. In the 2016 class, LaRon Smith and Ronnie Johnson will be gone after this season. We're losing as many players as we're retaining. Every year it's a new team and that affects team chemistry. The constant turnover also creates a depth problem.

We're being forced to play mostly Freshman this season because of the decision to rely so heavily on JUCO's and transfers these past 3 years. We all knew Pearl's first 2-3 years would be a struggle and we would take our lumps but we're in year 3 and we're just now trying to build some depth and get experience. We could have had depth and some experience on the roster had we focused more on recruiting high school players and developing them instead of getting so many JUCO's and transfers.

It's still too early to proclaim Bruce Pearl as the best coach we've ever had. I'm still waiting to see Pearl's actual coaching ability because the team has lacked fundamentals for years and Pearl's hiring still hasn't addressed that problem. IMO, Cliff Ellis is the best coach we've had. He got more out of his talent and consistently put a competitive product on the court, We made post-season tournaments in 7 out of 10 years under Ellis. 

That is the issue that most people don't want to talk about...attrition....and the coach's role in that problem.  This season is not over of course but I'm guessing that there will be some players who feel their opportunities would be improved by a transfer. 

 We have a couple excellent guys coming in and I'm guessing that most of these current players do not like just playing 15 or 20 minutes in a game. 

The good news is that "one and done" conversation about some of our players has ceased so the core of the team should be back. .

[Tiger 8,818]

15 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Yes Pearl stepped into a bad situation. But It's a double edged sword though when Pearl recruits JUCO's and gets transfers for 2 to 3 years and doesn't retain players. We've already lost some of Pearl's high school recruits. 

Jack Purchase
Trayvon Reed
New Williams

^He had to recruit jucos, when you're in as bad shape as we were you need temporary band-aids. As @cole256said, he can either get a better short term fix or a worse long term fix. He chose to opt for more talent at that moment. I'd rather have gotten juco players than 2-3* highschoolers, especially when given time he can land studs from HS. JMO though. 

Then the patchwork of losing Canty, Mason, Bowers, Harris, and Ross-Miller. -- Canty was a headcase, Bowers, Mason, Harris, and Ross-Miller were all supposed to be temporary stop gaps. If we had gotten 2 or 3* freshman we would be in an even bigger world of hurt right now. He needed to get guys who would be here for a few years tops so he can start getting good HS players in the program. He was essentially buying some time because, when Bruce has time to work on somebody his recruiting is stellar.

Think about this: T.J. Lang is the only player from Pearl's 1st class that's still on the roster. After this season 3 of the 6 players in Pearl's 2nd class(2015) will be gone. Harris and New Williams have already left, and Dunans will be gone after this season. In the 2016 class, LaRon Smith and Ronnie Johnson will be gone after this season. We're losing as many players as we're retaining. Every year it's a new team and that affects team chemistry. The constant turnover also creates a depth problem. -- This is actually good for the program overall. The players who have left already or are leaving after this year are not the type of players that will take us to the next level -- the closest player to the caliber of guy is Dunans though. But Pearl brought these fringe SEC type guys just so he could put a team on the court and be somewhat competitive. Again, he needed temporary fixes just to get us to ground level -- which is where we are now. 

We're being forced to play mostly Freshman this season because of the decision to rely so heavily on JUCO's and transfers these past 3 years. We all knew Pearl's first 2-3 years would be a struggle and we would take our lumps but we're in year 3 and we're just now trying to build some depth and get experience. We could have had depth and some experience on the roster had we focused more on recruiting high school players and developing them instead of getting so many JUCO's and transfers. -- The experience you're yearning for would've been 2-3* players. Bruce was out of coaching/recruiting for a while he needed time to build relationships with current top HS ballers. JMO but there was no real other choice. Either get guys that have no business at an SEC school and let them hang around for 4 years or get more talented guys to be in and out in 2 years -- which is enough time to work on and land guys like Heron, or Purifoy, or Harper

It's still too early to proclaim Bruce Pearl as the best coach we've ever had. I'm still waiting to see Pearl's actual coaching ability because the team has lacked fundamentals for years and Pearl's hiring still hasn't addressed that problem. IMO, Cliff Ellis is the best coach we've had. He got more out of his talent and consistently put a competitive product on the court, We made post-season tournaments in 7 out of 10 years under Ellis. -- IMO Bruce Pearl is a better coach than Cliff Ellis. Compare their career resumes. I'm talking about purely coaching ability, not what's been accomplished at AU yet. 7 our of 10 years of postseason play is nothing to scoff at but Pearl had 6 out of 6 Tennessee teams in the NCAA Tournament with 2 Sweet 16s and 1 Elite 8 appearance in that mix. My sights are set on Pearl turning Auburn into that type of program. But he started with wayyyyy less than he had at UT. Let's give him the opportunity to be working with a roster that doesn't have to rely on grad transfers or jucos. He was utilizing those guys due to necessity, not choice IMO. Watch some old UT games -- ones vs Memphis with Calipari, Kentucky etc. What Pearl's teams lack in fundamentals historically they usually make up for with superior athleticism and shooting and forcing the opponent to play uncomfortably -- at least that's how I remember feeling while watching his UT teams play.

We are going to have back to back classes now littered with 4-5** players starting next year. If he could have realistically started this 4-5* talent injection into our program in year 1 I'm sure he would have.  If we fire Bruce Pearl I would bet my house that his replacement is a downgrade. We have never had someone with the accomplishments that he has roam our sidelines. I hope you don't view this as me attacking you, these are just my opinions and how I see it.

[AU64 10,122]

Just to keep in mind that over the past 5 to 7 years the majority of teams in the SEC were "basket cases"....and just from memory (which ain't that great)  Kennedy and Calipari ....and the guy at Vandy are about the only coaches who have been able put together a run of winning seasons.    Otherwise the league is littered with relatively new coaches in anywhere from their 2nd to maybe 5th years.  

JMO but there is no reason that we should not be equal to or better than most of them ....not saying beating them, especially on the road, but looks bad getting run over like we have in some games.    Checked 247 sports and for the past 3 years our basketball commits have been rated 6th , 4th and 3rd in the SEC....so knock the players performance, but at the time they were recruited, there was some reasonable expectations for better outcome. 

Check the site.....you will be surprised where some of the better known SEC schools fall in the rankings....teams that are giving us fits.  

http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings?Conference=SEC

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

4 hours ago, cole256 said:

So you'd rather he just take less talented players and lose now? Then when those players get older and they still aren't that good and we lose in the future you wouldn't have anything to complain about?

And want canty theoretically supposed to be here this year? And a player like him is one of the few pieces that we are missing.....

Lose now? We've been losing. The patchwork of JUCO's and transfers did nothing to help the W/L record. That's a strawman argument. So the argument is that it's better to lose with JUCO's and transfers in your first 2 years because by year 3 you're going to have depth issues and lack of experience but hey we've got all this talent now, so we're going to be fine. All I have to say is that if you're going to do that then the results better pay off.

So you're telling me that Bruce Pearl could only recruit walk-on type talent his first 2 years? Quite frankly the way you frame it, it's a miracle we got our 2016 class because Pearl just couldn't recruit any decent high school talent his first 2 years and our W/L record was still bad despite the "better" short term fix. So this year's Freshmen class knew they were going to be carrying the team. That's a lot to ask of players that aren't NBA ready. 

Our W/L record is going to have be dramatically better if we're going to keep bringing in the level of talent Pearl is trying to get.

[AuburnNTexas 7,140]

4 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Lose now? We've been losing. The patchwork of JUCO's and transfers did nothing to help the W/L record. That's a strawman argument. So the argument is that it's better to lose with JUCO's and transfers in your first 2 years because by year 3 you're going to have depth issues and lack of experience but hey we've got all this talent now, so we're going to be fine. All I have to say is that if you're going to do that then the results better pay off.

So you're telling me that Bruce Pearl could only recruit walk-on type talent his first 2 years? Quite frankly the way you frame it, it's a miracle we got our 2016 class because Pearl just couldn't recruit any decent high school talent his first 2 years and our W/L record was still bad despite the "better" short term fix. So this year's Freshmen class knew they were going to be carrying the team. That's a lot to ask of players that aren't NBA ready. 

Our W/L record is going to have be dramatically better if we're going to keep bringing in the level of talent Pearl is trying to get.

I don't see how you expected Pearl to bring in quality HS Players his first year. He was hired late and was a TV analyst not a coach so did not have existing relationship with any recruits. His second year he had been contacting HS Recruits who other coaches had been working for 3-4 years it is hard to overcome that type lead. His third year he has brought in a solid class and this coming year which is where Wiley really should be a great class. Coaches who are brought in from other programs like at SC already had contacts in foreign countries and with other players around the US all he had to do was convince them to come with him to the new school not start from scratch.

For BP to pull the kinds of classes he has in his 3rd and 4th years speaks volumes about how good he is.

 

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

11 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I don't see how you expected Pearl to bring in quality HS Players his first year. He was hired late and was a TV analyst not a coach so did not have existing relationship with any recruits. His second year he had been contacting HS Recruits who other coaches had been working for 3-4 years it is hard to overcome that type lead. His third year he has brought in a solid class and this coming year which is where Wiley really should be a great class. Coaches who are brought in from other programs like at SC already had contacts in foreign countries and with other players around the US all he had to do was convince them to come with him to the new school not start from scratch.

For BP to pull the kinds of classes he has in his 3rd and 4th years speaks volumes about how good he is.

 

The SEC is not that great of a conference. Like AU64 said, it's not like all the others coaches have been at their schools 6-7 years and have established a winning brand. Calipari's basically done what Saban's done in football. Every other program in the SEC has pretty much started over with new coaches since Calipari's been at Kentucky. Andy Kennedy at Ole Miss is the longest tenured coach in the SEC and the only coach that's survived Calipari's takeover of the SEC.

Avery Johnson had never coached in college before and has been out of coaching for a few years also. Johnson had been at ESPN the last couple of years as an analyst before Alabama hired him. Avery Johnson never had to recruit before because he was in the NBA, yet Johnson's recruiting as good as Bruce Pearl in only his 2nd year at Alabama.

[Tiger 8,818]

If Bama and other schools started at level 0 we started at level -4. Yes, other programs are doing a little better because they started their rebuild in a much better spot than we did. Seriously we had a point shaver in our program. We hadn't won 2 games in the conference tournament game since 2000. 15 years before he got to AU. That is just a pathetic stat and it's going to take time to undo all the crappiness that had been permeating within our program for 15+ years. It's not just about the players, it's the culture within the program and learning how to win so the guys that Bruce has stepping into the program will be able to lean on guys who understand and know the culture and know how to win.

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

@cole256 has been dominating this thread while I was away from the civilized world, well done. In my preview I wondered if we had turned a corner or were in store for a step backwards, I think the answer is some of both. Ever since the Purdue blow out, some of us have warned that it wouldn't be the last time. This was one game. All of a sudden we are talking about program building. We have already eclipsed last season's win total, things are obviously improving. Now could CBP gone in a different direction yrs 1 & 2 and not taken as many transfers for short term gains, maybe. But if Dunans wasn't hurt last year and Canty didn't lose his mind we might have made the NIT and CBP would have looked like a genius. 

Instead, I'll stay in vested with this group and ride out the season, cheering them on and hoping CBP can draw out their best and make the post season. When we were looking at this 2 game road stretch, I don't think anyone expected to go 2-0, we matchup better against TCU than SC, so let's go get a win tonight. Our RPI is at a respectable 72, well in the postseason conversation, don't jump ship yet. 

[mustache eagle 2,397]

Interesting last page to this thread.  CBP made the right move going the JUCO route in the first 2 years.  If he got high school talent it wouldn't be playing right now ahead of this years frosh.  Btw ... don't forget we have in house established recruiting hurdles to work around regarding AAU.  There were rumblings as early as first year that CBP was frustrated with our compliance folks.

CBP did the right thing.

also!  I'd argue that if you put Cim Bowers on THIS team at the 4, we would be a scare for most teams.  I'd argue we beat Georgia, BC and ole miss.  We make the vandy game competitive.  Bowers would have been the tenacious, energetic leader we need this year - throwing up double-doubles every other game.  Would have been sweet.

[au302 2,669]

5 hours ago, mustache eagle said:

Interesting last page to this thread.  CBP made the right move going the JUCO route in the first 2 years.  If he got high school talent it wouldn't be playing right now ahead of this years frosh.  Btw ... don't forget we have in house established recruiting hurdles to work around regarding AAU.  There were rumblings as early as first year that CBP was frustrated with our compliance folks.

CBP did the right thing.

also!  I'd argue that if you put Cim Bowers on THIS team at the 4, we would be a scare for most teams.  I'd argue we beat Georgia, BC and ole miss.  We make the vandy game competitive.  Bowers would have been the tenacious, energetic leader we need this year - throwing up double-doubles every other game.  Would have been sweet.

 

I loved Bowers but I don't think he'd be a monster player on this team. I totally agree that he'd be a great leader but I just don't think we'd have won all those other games with him.  The thing about him was that he'd make tremendous moves to the goal but not finish.  But since you brought this up I'm now very curious to see how he'd have played with Wiley.