Players moving positions

[Strychnine 1,802]

17 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

Yup... and there's no reason Lindsey's offense can't go fast more often than not, if it works against the opponent. I could see us running at full speed against Arkansas, partly because Bret loves him some BIG linemen, and partially because he threw such a fit about it a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

Considering that the team is conditioned for it, or is at least supposed to be, tempo is an advantage that is better used than wasted.  I am dying to see an Auburn team create that 5th quarter that he talks about in his book.

[AUApostle 7,648]

33 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

 

Considering that the team is conditioned for it, or is at least supposed to be, tempo is an advantage that is better used than wasted.  I am dying to see an Auburn team create that 5th quarter that he talks about in his book.

Entering his offense's 9th season since Gus became a coordinator at Auburn...you'd have to think conditioning in the SEC has caught up by now.  Especially since it seems everyone has a HUNH package.

[Mikey 16,546]

Our offense under Gus has always worked best when the were using the HU pat of HUNH. I see the need for new coaching blood to fully utilize the talent we have in the passing attack, but I'm not comfortable with Gus bowing out of the O-coaching entirely. Tubs always kept his hand in the defense and that worked pretty well for us.

[Strychnine 1,802]

6 minutes ago, AUDevil said:

Entering his offense's 9th season since Gus became a coordinator at Auburn...you'd have to think conditioning in the SEC has caught up by now.  Especially since it seems everyone has a HUNH package.

 

No one in the SEC has committed to the HUNH for an entire game, including Auburn.  That has been one of the most bizarre things to me about Gus' tenure as head coach here.  I expected a blistering offensive tempo averaging well over 80 plays per game when Gus was announced as head coach.  We should be demonstrating tempo to Baylor, not the other way around.

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,641]

22 hours ago, Mikey said:

Our offense under Gus has always worked best when the were using the HU pat of HUNH. I see the need for new coaching blood to fully utilize the talent we have in the passing attack, but I'm not comfortable with Gus bowing out of the O-coaching entirely. Tubs always kept his hand in the defense and that worked pretty well for us.

Tubs never fielded a completely horrendous defense and his job security questioned DIRECTLY because of the failure of his forte. Im sure Gus will help draw up plays and things behind the scenes but the man has proven that he can't do the job and be a head coach. 

[Mikey 16,546]

10 minutes ago, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

Tubs never fielded a completely horrendous defense and his job security questioned DIRECTLY because of the failure of his forte. Im sure Gus will help draw up plays and things behind the scenes but the man has proven that he can't do the job and be a head coach.

BS.

[Gowebb11 9,307]

23 hours ago, Strychnine said:

 

No one in the SEC has committed to the HUNH for an entire game, including Auburn.  That has been one of the most bizarre things to me about Gus' tenure as head coach here.  I expected a blistering offensive tempo averaging well over 80 plays per game when Gus was announced as head coach.  We should be demonstrating tempo to Baylor, not the other way around.

I've never really recognized Gus's offense as HUNH, rather HLOS (hurry to the line of scrimmage)  Oregon was a true HUNH in my opinion. Chip Kelly liked the Ducks to run the next play as fast as possible, regardless of the defense. That's a more proactive approach. Gus seems intent on hurrying to the LOS, then make a call based on what the defense shows which is more reactive. Personally, if you want to go tempo I believe in doing it the Oregon way.  

[Strychnine 1,802]

48 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

I've never really recognized Gus's offense as HUNH, rather HLOS (hurry to the line of scrimmage)  Oregon was a true HUNH in my opinion. Chip Kelly liked the Ducks to run the next play as fast as possible, regardless of the defense. That's a more proactive approach. Gus seems intent on hurrying to the LOS, then make a call based on what the defense shows which is more reactive. Personally, if you want to go tempo I believe in doing it the Oregon way.  

 

Gus' Auburn implementation of HLOS annoys me greatly.  I always refer to it as hurry to the line of scrimmage and wait 30 seconds while coaches play peek-a-boo with the defense.  That said, it is not the way Gus' offense was run in high school, at Tulsa, or as described in his book.  As described in his book, the purpose of the HUNH was to create a virtual 5th quarter in the game that the other team is not conditioned for.  This was accomplished by running the HUNH fast, and therefore running more plays, which is exactly what Oregon and Baylor do.

That is why I mentioned it as one of the most bizarre things to me about Gus' tenure here.  All of the pre and post-snap misdirection comes from the premise of creating confusion when the tempo is also not giving anyone time to adjust and adapt.  When you give the defense time to apply what the coaches spent the week explaining to them, or the coaches time to point it out, you are not doing yourself any favors.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

42 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Gus' Auburn implementation of HLOS annoys me greatly.  I always refer to it as hurry to the line of scrimmage and wait 30 seconds while coaches play peek-a-boo with the defense.  That said, it is not the way Gus' offense was run in high school, at Tulsa, or as described in his book.  As described in his book, the purpose of the HUNH was to create a virtual 5th quarter in the game that the other team is not conditioned for.  This was accomplished by running the HUNH fast, and therefore running more plays, which is exactly what Oregon and Baylor do.

That is why I mentioned it as one of the most bizarre things to me about Gus' tenure here.  All of the pre and post-snap misdirection comes from the premise of creating confusion when the tempo is also not giving anyone time to adjust and adapt.  When you give the defense time to apply what the coaches spent the week explaining to them, or the coaches time to point it out, you are not doing yourself any favors.

I've come to believe that the real reason we haven't been able to implement the HUNH offense the way Gus has written it has everything to do with a lack of versatility in our players. It's been evident for the past two years that the staff has believed that they needed to substitute in order to have the best players on the field for a certain type of play (which is offensive death, if you ask me). In order to put the peddle down and not look back, you need receivers who can run block, running backs who can provide protection, receivers who can read the D and run routes based on what they see, running backs with good enough hands to provide a check down, and a QB who can read the D well enough and fast enough to adjust the play on the fly.

In 2013, we ran a lazy version of the HUNH, because we had elite blocking, so we were able to just run the same play, over and over again, fast... until someone stopped it. In order to pull that off, you need a top O-line combined with a QB capable of running some variation of an option. I don't know that we've had the first since 2013 or the second since 2015.

My hope is that our major upgrade in wide receivers and dept at QB will allow us to finally have the versatility to run a true HUNH, and that it will be innovative, once again, with the addition of Chip's Air Raid philosophies.

[Gowebb11 9,307]

5 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I've come to believe that the real reason we haven't been able to implement the HUNH offense the way Gus has written it has everything to do with a lack of versatility in our players. It's been evident for the past two years that the staff has believed that they needed to substitute in order to have the best players on the field for a certain type of play (which is offensive death, if you ask me). In order to put the peddle down and not look back, you need receivers who can run block, running backs who can provide protection, receivers who can read the D and run routes based on what they see, running backs with good enough hands to provide a check down, and a QB who can read the D well enough and fast enough to adjust the play on the fly.

In 2013, we ran a lazy version of the HUNH, because we had elite blocking, so we were able to just run the same play, over and over again, fast... until someone stopped it. In order to pull that off, you need a top O-line combined with a QB capable of running some variation of an option. I don't know that we've had the first since 2013 or the second since 2015.

My hope is that our major upgrade in wide receivers and dept at QB will allow us to finally have the versatility to run a true HUNH, and that it will be innovative, once again, with the addition of Chip's Air Raid philosophies.

I agree with your assessment. I believe there is another factor at play though. A super confident coach runs the HUNH in attack mode, wearing you down. An coaching lacking in confidence over processes as the game goes on, trying to outthink how to react to the defense. A prime example was the Sugar Bowl when we had 4th and inches at a critical juncture of the game. We ran to the LOS intent on going for it. OU called timeout, Gus had time to think and punted. The game was lost right then, in my opinion. The only time Gus goes full up tempo is when he is running the tailback up the middle 8-10 times in a row. Unfortunately, that situation rarely occurs against SEC and Power 5 teams. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

6 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

I agree with your assessment. I believe there is another factor at play though. A super confident coach runs the HUNH in attack mode, wearing you down. An coaching lacking in confidence over processes as the game goes on, trying to outthink how to react to the defense. A prime example was the Sugar Bowl when we had 4th and inches at a critical juncture of the game. We ran to the LOS intent on going for it. OU called timeout, Gus had time to think and punted. The game was lost right then, in my opinion. The only time Gus goes full up tempo is when he is running the tailback up the middle 8-10 times in a row. Unfortunately, that situation rarely occurs against SEC and Power 5 teams. 

I agree... when Gus loses a key piece of his offense, he has a tendency to play it VERY safe vs going for broke.

[Strychnine 1,802]

24 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I've come to believe that the real reason we haven't been able to implement the HUNH offense the way Gus has written it has everything to do with a lack of versatility in our players. It's been evident for the past two years that the staff has believed that they needed to substitute in order to have the best players on the field for a certain type of play (which is offensive death, if you ask me). In order to put the peddle down and not look back, you need receivers who can run block, running backs who can provide protection, receivers who can read the D and run routes based on what they see, running backs with good enough hands to provide a check down, and a QB who can read the D well enough and fast enough to adjust the play on the fly.

In 2013, we ran a lazy version of the HUNH, because we had elite blocking, so we were able to just run the same play, over and over again, fast... until someone stopped it. In order to pull that off, you need a top O-line combined with a QB capable of running some variation of an option. I don't know that we've had the first since 2013 or the second since 2015.

My hope is that our major upgrade in wide receivers and dept at QB will allow us to finally have the versatility to run a true HUNH, and that it will be innovative, once again, with the addition of Chip's Air Raid philosophies.

 

I mostly agree with that, but I also think he had the pieces to run full HUNH if he committed to doing something other than kicking it off with a run up the middle on first down.  Last season's offense in particular could have used it well when everyone was healthy.  White is a good short-intermediate passer, Pettway is a bruiser, and there was some speed to throw in on sweeps.  Concentrate less on trying to hit the home run, and just get a bunch of base hits very fast.  Personally, that is where I think the HUNH is most effective.  A nice long drive in terms of number of plays, just executed as fast as possible.  All of that misdirection (and I like misdirection) works better when the defense does not have time to think about it for more than a few seconds before the snap.  The whole point of that is to confuse the defense and try to catch a few players in a position where you do not even need to block them.  Crush people with speed Checkers instead of trying to play Chess with a Checkers board.

As for Air Raid philosophies, I must admit I have long enjoyed watching Air Raid offenses.  I have often wondered what a guy like Mike Leach could do if you gave him the talent he could get at a program like Auburn instead of Texas Tech or Wazzou.

[alexava 6,973]

48 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

 

I mostly agree with that, but I also think he had the pieces to run full HUNH if he committed to doing something other than kicking it off with a run up the middle on first down.  Last season's offense in particular could have used it well when everyone was healthy.  White is a good short-intermediate passer, Pettway is a bruiser, and there was some speed to throw in on sweeps.  Concentrate less on trying to hit the home run, and just get a bunch of base hits very fast.  Personally, that is where I think the HUNH is most effective.  A nice long drive in terms of number of plays, just executed as fast as possible.  All of that misdirection (and I like misdirection) works better when the defense does not have time to think about it for more than a few seconds before the snap.  The whole point of that is to confuse the defense and try to catch a few players in a position where you do not even need to block them.  Crush people with speed Checkers instead of trying to play Chess with a Checkers board.

As for Air Raid philosophies, I must admit I have long enjoyed watching Air Raid offenses.  I have often wondered what a guy like Mike Leach could do if you gave him the talent he could get at a program like Auburn instead of Texas Tech or Wazzou.

I agree about not having to block.... Pace and misdirection when effective has the bigs on d line confused, tired but most importantly guessing and leaning. Just a nudge and you have them pushed out of the play. 

I like air raid offenses too. They just don't do well in the w column. After the ole miss game we gave up ~ 420 yards passing. The stat was introduced that auburn history shows we had given up 400+ like 8 times and won every time. 

[Strychnine 1,802]

59 minutes ago, alexava said:

I agree about not having to block.... Pace and misdirection when effective has the bigs on d line confused, tired but most importantly guessing and leaning. Just a nudge and you have them pushed out of the play. 

I like air raid offenses too. They just don't do well in the w column. After the ole miss game we gave up ~ 420 yards passing. The stat was introduced that auburn history shows we had given up 400+ like 8 times and won every time. 

 

Ole Miss was overmatched, but they still managed to do better against our defense than most others.  The actual Air Raid team we faced put the most points up against us:  Oklahoma.  I also suspect that many of those 400+ passing games against us were teams like Louisiana Tech (I really do not know), as most SEC teams (traditionally and present) do not throw the ball that much unless they absolutely have to.  It is hard to say something like "they just don't do well in the w column" when it is often and apples to oranges comparison.  Oklahoma and Oklahoma State do pretty well in the W column with an Air Raid.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

22 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Ole Miss was overmatched, but they still managed to do better against our defense than most others.  The actual Air Raid team we faced put the most points up against us:  Oklahoma.  I also suspect that many of those 400+ passing games against us were teams like Louisiana Tech (I really do not know), as most SEC teams (traditionally and present) do not throw the ball that much unless they absolutely have to.  It is hard to say something like "they just don't do well in the w column" when it is often and apples to oranges comparison.  Oklahoma and Oklahoma State do pretty well in the W column with an Air Raid.

And, in any case, Lindsey's offense is a hybrid, best of both worlds. I expect to see some Air Raid down the field followed by some classic SEC running to punch it into the end zone, with the occasional switch up to keep defenses on their toes.

[Strychnine 1,802]

14 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

And, in any case, Lindsey's offense is a hybrid, best of both worlds. I expect to see some Air Raid down the field followed by some classic SEC running to punch it into the end zone, with the occasional switch up to keep defenses on their toes.

 

The main thing I wonder is if we will see the Air Raid's OL split.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

12 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

 

The main thing I wonder is if we will see the Air Raid's OL split.

Based on watching footage from Arizona State, last year, I'm guessing no. Also, as much as Gus and Herb like to pull their guards, they might fight spreading everything out.

[milehighfan 1,239]

What irritates me is when Auburn gets to the line of scrimmage and you see the linebackers moving laterally back and forth and seeming to not be sure where to line up....SNAP THE BALL.

[Tiger 8,817]

On 2/22/2017 at 6:26 PM, milehighfan said:

What irritates me is when Auburn gets to the line of scrimmage and you see the linebackers moving laterally back and forth and seeming to not be sure where to line up....SNAP THE BALL.

NOPE. Letting them actually get set up works to our advantage

 

yellowfontyellowfontyellowfontyellowfont 

[meh130 1,043]

On 2/16/2017 at 10:01 AM, lionheartkc said:

I've come to believe that the real reason we haven't been able to implement the HUNH offense the way Gus has written it has everything to do with a lack of versatility in our players. It's been evident for the past two years that the staff has believed that they needed to substitute in order to have the best players on the field for a certain type of play (which is offensive death, if you ask me). In order to put the peddle down and not look back, you need receivers who can run block, running backs who can provide protection, receivers who can read the D and run routes based on what they see, running backs with good enough hands to provide a check down, and a QB who can read the D well enough and fast enough to adjust the play on the fly.

In 2013, we ran a lazy version of the HUNH, because we had elite blocking, so we were able to just run the same play, over and over again, fast... until someone stopped it. In order to pull that off, you need a top O-line combined with a QB capable of running some variation of an option. I don't know that we've had the first since 2013 or the second since 2015.

My hope is that our major upgrade in wide receivers and dept at QB will allow us to finally have the versatility to run a true HUNH, and that it will be innovative, once again, with the addition of Chip's Air Raid philosophies.

Agree with this 100%. You need versatile athletes like Ricardo Louis (dual WR and Jet Sweep threat), C.J. Uzomah (dual TE and possession WR threat), along with a solid blocking and receiving H-Back like Jay Prosch and and a true dual-threat QB like Nick Marshall all on the field all at the same time to make the HUNH work well. Those players gave us an "any-down" set of personnel.

Regarding the HULO, I used to find that annoying for the same reasons, but I find it far superior to substituting, because it keeps the defensive personnel locked in. To me, this has an advantage when we have a mismatch, such as 1st and 10 facing a dime package, or 3rd and long facing a standard defense. While it would be great to line up and run the play, the second best option is to line up and then signal in a play or package. Third best is to substitute.

[McLoofus 35,182]

On 2/16/2017 at 10:01 AM, lionheartkc said:

I've come to believe that the real reason we haven't been able to implement the HUNH offense the way Gus has written it has everything to do with a lack of versatility in our players.

I'd argue that Stanton Truitt, Chandler Cox, Eli Stove, Kerryon Johnson, Jason Smith and Kam Martin are all those kinds of guys. But they haven't all been available for whatever reason all the time, so I guess maybe I'm not really disputing your point.

Quote

My hope is that our major upgrade in wide receivers and depth at QB will allow us to finally have the versatility to run a true HUNH, and that it will be innovative, once again, with the addition of Chip's Air Raid philosophies.

Depth at QB, trust in that depth, playing Auburn football and not scared of the opponent football... 

 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

On 2/25/2017 at 9:01 AM, McLoofus said:

I'd argue that Stanton Truitt, Chandler Cox, Eli Stove, Kerryon Johnson, Jason Smith and Kam Martin are all those kinds of guys. But they haven't all been available for whatever reason all the time, so I guess maybe I'm not really disputing your point.

Yup... and Chandler was a mess for a while, until he figured it out and started nailing his blocks. I honestly haven't analyzed Stove's downfield blocking to see how he is with that. Smith hasn't played enough to know how versatile he is. As for Kam Martin... well, the "catch" in the Georgia game tells me what I need to know about how ready he was last year.

I think we have a lot of guys who have the physical ability and are getting there mentally.  Hopefully this year we'll be able to mix it up a lot, without substitutions, and see some things like downfield blocking, that haven't been a strong suit for us since 2010. If not, that will be our Achilles heel. 

 

[auburnphan 6,050]

I would argue that Gus had the players with the flexibility to be on the field, but he chose to do what he did, how he practiced players, how he recruited players etc.  The blame falls on one person.  An offensive genius can adapt his offense to his personnel and continue to evolve it to keep defenses on its heels, this offense never changed, hence why he was forced to make a change.