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penguin149

uat Offensive Coordinator

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1 hour ago, lionheartkc said:

Yea, but now they have a mediocre OC who is also a QB coach but has very little experience coaching QBs, and who also has no experience running a dual-threat friendly offense, though their returning starting QB is a dual threat who's arm is as much a liability as it is a value. On top of that their next option at QB is a true freshman, yet they have no one to really develop him. And the icing on the cake is they now have coaches with minimal experience coaching TEs and receivers as well.  I don't believe they have come close to that recipe for disaster in the past.

You obviously know them better than I do, I just won't label a Nick Saban coached team as ready for disaster until I see it with my own eyes.  History proves that old man knows how to run a program and win ball games.

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3 minutes ago, milehighfan said:

I wonder if Saban even talked with Kelly or Helfrich? I can't believe this guy was the one Saban said, THIS IS THE GUY I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR!

Barring the possibility of "fake news" it was actually reported that Kelly was in Tuscaloosa.

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Just now, keesler said:

You obviously know them better than I do, I just won't label a Nick Saban coached team as ready for disaster until I see it with my own eyes.  History proves that old man knows how to run a program and win ball games.

Yes... which is why these choices are so surprising.  It's not his usual style. After all, this is still the Saban who realized that his offense wasn't keeping up with the Joneses, so he hired Kiffin to get him there... now he's going backwards. 

Of course, he could just be so good that he sees untapped potential in all of these guys and they might just run the table once again.

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On 2/20/2017 at 4:51 PM, AUpreacherman22 said:

I'm gonna be honest, if CGM hired this guy, I would think WTH. 

But Saban has earned a significant level of credibility.  I think he and Bilichek know something that we don't.

Interesting move to say the least.

 I hope this guy is their Loefler, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. 

 They know how to cheat and that's about it. 

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17 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

Yes... which is why these choices are so surprising.  It's not his usual style. After all, this is still the Saban who realized that his offense wasn't keeping up with the Joneses, so he hired Kiffin to get him there... now he's going backwards. 

Of course, he could just be so good that he sees untapped potential in all of these guys and they might just run the table once again.

Your bolded statement above might actually speak a lot of truth.  This might be an oversimplification but look at the Oregon/Auburn "Fast" offenses that were all the rage a few years ago and now they've seemingly been proven to be the "fads" that many claimed they would be.

Saban was forced to step out of his comfort zone and go after something more in that vein when anybody with a pulse knows he wants "regular football" (ie: I-Formation, TE, Huddles, QB under center, etc etc).  However, he never could embrace it fully so their style was sorta "in between"...thus Kiffin & Sarkisian.

I think much of the football world is now settling into the same "in between" style (Lindsey seems more in the style of Kiffin & Sark than Gus & Kelly) so while these teams sorta go backwards a bit, Saban may very well be going backwards too....right back into his comfort zone.  Heck, we may see 3 yards and a cloud of dust out of bammer in the near future.

Edited by AUsince72
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40 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

Your bolded statement above might actually speak a lot of truth.  This might be an oversimplification but look at the Oregon/Auburn "Fast" offenses that were all the rage a few years ago and now they've seemingly been proven to be the "fads" that many claimed they would be.

Saban was forced to step out of his comfort zone and go after something more in that vein when anybody with a pulse knows he wants "regular football" (ie: I-Formation, TE, Huddles, QB under center, etc etc).  However, he never could embrace it fully so their style was sorta "in between"...thus Kiffin & Sarkisian.

I think much of the football world is now settling into the same "in between" style (Lindsey seems more in the style of Kiffin & Sark than Gus & Kelly) so while these teams sorta go backwards a bit, Saban may very well be going backwards too....right back into his comfort zone.  Heck, we may see 3 yards and a cloud of dust out of bammer in the near future.

Excellent post!

To be frankly honest with you, I believe Gus knows that his offenses of old won't cut it any longer.  Makes me like the Chip Lindsey hire even more and I hope like hell Gus gives that man the reigns 100%.

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1 hour ago, AUsince72 said:

This might be an oversimplification but look at the Oregon/Auburn "Fast" offenses that were all the rage a few years ago and now they've seemingly been proven to be the "fads" that many claimed they would be.

I think this is in part, true. The HUNH offenses worked well in HS and less competitive college levels, just like other "Fad" offenses like the Run-n-Shoot, etc. Few teams have won it all or dominated using this strategy. I think the one exception might be Urban Meyer at UF and tOSU, but Meyer taking a few years off may have actually helped, much in the same way there was a period between the 2009/2010 CGM era at Auburn, and the 2013/2014 era at Auburn. AU might have gone further in 2014 if we had a better defense.

I think where the HUNH breaks down is two areas. First, HUNH centric teams tend to rely more on offense, and do not try to also build dominant defenses. Second, I think it is hard to recruit to the HUNH scheme. You may have stand-out HS HUNH QBs and WRs, but they may not be able to compete at the Power 5 level. I think it would be better to find that RB from a power running scheme, that WR from a pro-style passing team, etc.

The other aspect of the HUNH is it can shift a defensive talent advantage to the offense if the offense has good enough talent, is well conditioned, and can sustain the drive at pace. The defensive player will tire faster than the offensive player. But without good enough talent, it is likely to fail.

When Auburn did well with CGM's offense, it was with a lot of existing, but exceptional athletes, with a JUCO QB who could execute. The truth is we could have pulled out Jack Crowe's Wishbone playbook with Nick Marshall and probably done as well. It was more about athletes than playbook. In both 2010 and 2013 we had exceptional offensive lines, very good running backs, and adequate defenses.

Then think about recruiting, and Saban's heavy focus on sports psychology. Would Saban have recruited Kyle Frazier or Jeremy Johnson? Would he have been able to identify both of these exceptional HS athletes as not being able to make the transition to Power 5 starting QB?

It comes down to athletes before scheme. It is like the endless debates of 3-4 vs. 4-3 defenses. How the Xs and Os line up on paper is less relevant than the players on the field.

For offenses, I still believe option football is the way to go. That means pre-snap reads, post-snap reads, option running, run pass options, and multiple reads in the passing game. Every time a defender is successfully optioned, the offense gets a numerical advantage the same as missed tackle.

I also believe HUNH and pace works if you have the athletes. They not only have to be "good enough", they have to be flexible. The HUNH works when you have a TE who can play hands-down beside the tackle, flexed out as a third WR, or in the backfield as an H-Back. The HUNH works when you have a WR who can be a second RB. The HUNH works when you have an RB who can flex out as a WR when needed. The HUNH works when you can run the same personnel on 1st and 10, 3rd and 2, and 3rd and 9. The HUNH really works when you can lure the defense into a dime set on 3rd and 9, make the 1st down, then not substitute again for the rest of the drive while running the ball exceptionally well with the same personnel group.

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20 hours ago, keesler said:

Their offense has been ultra balanced for years.  They've had some remarkably mediocre OC's, yet they've all been able to put up decent #'s and put points on the board.

Because they have stellar offensive linemen, and very good RBs.

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58 minutes ago, meh130 said:

I think it is hard to recruit to the HUNH scheme

 

58 minutes ago, meh130 said:

I also believe HUNH and pace works if you have the athletes. They not only have to be "good enough", they have to be flexible. The HUNH works when you have a TE who can play hands-down beside the tackle, flexed out as a third WR, or in the backfield as an H-Back. The HUNH works when you have a WR who can be a second RB. The HUNH works when you have an RB who can flex out as a WR when needed. The HUNH works when you can run the same personnel on 1st and 10, 3rd and 2, and 3rd and 9. The HUNH really works when you can lure the defense into a dime set on 3rd and 9, make the 1st down, then not substitute again for the rest of the drive while running the ball exceptionally well with the same personnel group.

Combining the two above thoughts, I think you nailed it. The funny thing is, if you think about it, the better you recruit, the harder it is to run the HUNH, because when you start picking up elite 4 and 5* players, they are masters of a certain position, so much so that they are less flexible (the one exception being an elite dual-threat QB, because flexibility is a key to their roll).  When you are living off of 3 and lower 4* players, that's when you get the journey men who can do a little bit of everything well, because that's how they made themselves relevant.

Gus owns the world when he's got a team made up of these lower level guys who have learned to do whatever is asked of them. When he's working with top players, he's having to teach the flexibility, because they are used to just doing that one thing that they are excellent at, and in cases like Duke Williams, are too much of a diva to get down in the trenches.

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4 hours ago, meh130 said:

Because they have stellar offensive linemen, and very good RBs.

Which is the exact reason why I won't label uat as "going backwards" because Saban's most recent hires appear outside his usual style.  

They have primarily fielded a productive offense that's well balanced, Saban has done it with QBs the likes of McElroy/McCarron/Coker/Sims/Truefrosh Hurts and with OCs the likes of McElwayne/Nussmeyer/Kiffin.  Nothing really impressive about those QBs or those OCs in my eyes. 

 

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I think Kiffin is a pretty darn good OC when he has talent. He has the ability to draw up plays despite the QB's flaws. I think he has proven he is a bad head coach. Funny thing is that I thought the 2 personalities at Uat together would be a DISASTER, but Saban kept him in check, and it worked very well. 

On paper this looks like a mediocre hire, but since they have more talent at every position than every other school in the nation, the new OC will be probably be successful. If you have the better players, you are going to win most of the time. I will say that the QB they have - it does not seem that he would prosper in a pro-set style offense. 

 

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Saban could hire me as OC and we'd win 10 games.  That little man has a leprechaun up his ass.  

 

Paint him green and maybe HE'S the leprechaun. 

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Saban has the players and will win 10+ games a year just lining up,  running the ball down the other team's throats and playing defense.  They don't have more than than 2 - 3 games a year where the opponent can slow their run game and score enough points on offense to keep it close.  I'll be glad when the wee man retires.  

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8 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

 

Combining the two above thoughts, I think you nailed it. The funny thing is, if you think about it, the better you recruit, the harder it is to run the HUNH, because when you start picking up elite 4 and 5* players, they are masters of a certain position, so much so that they are less flexible (the one exception being an elite dual-threat QB, because flexibility is a key to their roll).  When you are living off of 3 and lower 4* players, that's when you get the journey men who can do a little bit of everything well, because that's how they made themselves relevant.

Gus owns the world when he's got a team made up of these lower level guys who have learned to do whatever is asked of them. When he's working with top players, he's having to teach the flexibility, because they are used to just doing that one thing that they are excellent at, and in cases like Duke Williams, are too much of a diva to get down in the trenches.

All true but not sure if it is even that complicated. Championships are won when you have a spectacular QB and/or a stifling defense. USC, Texas, AU, UF, FSU, Clemson  all had QBs that won Hesimans and played in the NFL. (I'm assuming D Watson joins that NFL list) Saban championships have largely been won with dominant defenses and solid but not spectacular QB play. AU seems to have the talent  on defense to compete for a championship, so I hope JS is all he is reported to be. WDE!

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20 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

 

Combining the two above thoughts, I think you nailed it. The funny thing is, if you think about it, the better you recruit, the harder it is to run the HUNH, because when you start picking up elite 4 and 5* players, they are masters of a certain position, so much so that they are less flexible (the one exception being an elite dual-threat QB, because flexibility is a key to their roll).  When you are living off of 3 and lower 4* players, that's when you get the journey men who can do a little bit of everything well, because that's how they made themselves relevant.

Gus owns the world when he's got a team made up of these lower level guys who have learned to do whatever is asked of them. When he's working with top players, he's having to teach the flexibility, because they are used to just doing that one thing that they are excellent at, and in cases like Duke Williams, are too much of a diva to get down in the trenches.

I found this from Chris Brown of Smart Football. It is from January 2006, forever ago in football years.

Has the spread offense reached its apex?

The [spread] offense has arguably become the opposite of an equalizer, it has become an amplifier: if you are talented you can really rack up the points because no one can cover Vince Young, Ted Ginn or the like one-on-one, but if you're not, you just get sacked and no one gets open. Purdue even tried to add the spread option stuff this year but an offensive line that could not get movement and a lack of playmakers stunted the offense's production.

This point was made specifically about big-time college football. The article also said spread offenses would continue to be successful at lower levels of football.

It goes to your point about living off of less talented players.

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Football is one long continuum of scheme evolution. In my lifetime it's gone from the wishbone, to the power I, to the triple option, to the West Coast, to the spread and HUNH. (Oh, and the wing T based on last years AU-Clemson game). 

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