homersapien 11,357 Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-brexit-globalization_us_58c02d18e4b0d1078ca2fc3d? Behind Trump And Brexit Is A Dark Void At The Heart Of Globalization "Western liberals need to admit that we have finally reached the limits of the Enlightenment’s cult of secular individualism." First, I will be totally honest and admit up-front I don't 'get it'. I don't get extreme religious beliefs and I don't get xenophobic nationalism. As I was telling my wife the other day, I often feel like a character in a "body-snatcher" movie whose friends and family have been converted into Trump bots. According to this essay, I suppose that implies I am still fully invested in the "secular individualism" expressed by the "Enlightenment". While I do sort of get how the global economy has accentuated the consequences for the "losers" in this new economy, I just don't see how that necessarily compells them to nihilism. After all, alternatives to whatever condition one finds oneself in, do exist, do they not? (This is not to say we shouldn't invest in new alternatives.) Adaptation to change is a basic requirement of advancing as individuals - as well as a species. Have so many people lost that ability - or desire - to adapt? If so, how much of that is cultural as opposed to political policy? Is a compelling desire for tradition something people need to overcome for their own sake and for the sake of society? Can we really go back to a mythical "great" America? More to the point, what is a preferable alternative to the values of the Enlightenment? What do the disaffected nihilists want that is contrary to "individual secularism"? Or - more succinctly - what do they want if not ideas and values based on reason? It seems to me such alternatives will necessarily reflect the darker aspects of human political/religious history. Radical Islamism would be exhibit 'A'. The xenophobic, nationalistic populism flaring up globally would be exhibit 'B'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PUB78 1,357 Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I don't see conservatives rioting in the streets as are the liberals. Adaptation is a part of life. Nothing stays the same, but you can hold onto the traditions and cultural aspects that defines your nation, state, community. and at the same time, accept some of the change that is occurring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 3 hours ago, PUB78 said: I don't see conservatives rioting in the streets as are the liberals. Adaptation is a part of life. Nothing stays the same, but you can hold onto the traditions and cultural aspects that defines your nation, state, community. and at the same time, accept some of the change that is occurring. Meaning what? For the most part, liberal demonstrations are mostly reactive to Trump's policies and values, not a reflection of some sort of economic or cultural zeitgiest. Regardless, liberal issues can hardly be categorized as reflecting anything but enlightenment values, which are the same as the aspirational values of our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icanthearyou 4,462 Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I am not sure there is an "adaptation" for what technology will do over the next fifty years. I think we will have to explore new concepts, socially, economically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 1 hour ago, icanthearyou said: I am not sure there is an "adaptation" for what technology will do over the next fifty years. I think we will have to explore new concepts, socially, economically. That's a very interesting perspective. But it assumes we can be proactive in a social/political context, which I have come to question more and more. Perhaps our technology has already "overrun" our ability to do adapt to it. But I had the same feeling in the 70's. So the question is was I wrong or right, then or now? I wish I could say I was wrong then and may be wrong now, but it's just as likely I was right then and now. Major sociological changes typically require several generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PUB78 1,357 Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 3 hours ago, homersapien said: Meaning what? For the most part, liberal demonstrations are mostly reactive to Trump's policies and values, not a reflection of some sort of economic or cultural zeitgiest. Regardless, liberal issues can hardly be categorized as reflecting anything but enlightenment values, which are the same as the aspirational values of our country. Enlightenment values? Please explain your thoughts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Just now, PUB78 said: Enlightenment values? Please explain your thoughts on this. Did you read the linked essay? Have you looked up the enlightenment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PUB78 1,357 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I want to hear it from you. What do you consider enlightenment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icanthearyou 4,462 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, homersapien said: That's a very interesting perspective. But it assumes we can be proactive in a social/political context, which I have come to question more and more. Perhaps our technology has already "overrun" our ability to do adapt to it. But I had the same feeling in the 70's. So the question is was I wrong or right, then or now? I wish I could say I was wrong then and may be wrong now, but it's just as likely I was right then and now. Major sociological changes typically require several generations. Yes. However, I think AI and nanotechnology are going to dramatically change, and limit, the types of opportunities in employment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, PUB78 said: I want to hear it from you. What do you consider enlightenment? Pretty much the same as what are accepted by educated people as "enlightenment" views. Look it up for yourself. I am not your mama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, icanthearyou said: Yes. However, I think AI and nanotechnology are going to dramatically change, and limit, the types of opportunities in employment. Yes, those are great examples of two emerging disruptive technologies - along with genetic engineering. And for socio economic trends, the ultimate shift to 'carbon free' sources of energy represents a disruptive change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,777 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 4 hours ago, homersapien said: That's a very interesting perspective. But it assumes we can be proactive in a social/political context, which I have come to question more and more. Perhaps our technology has already "overrun" our ability to do adapt to it. But I had the same feeling in the 70's. So the question is was I wrong or right, then or now? I wish I could say I was wrong then and may be wrong now, but it's just as likely I was right then and now. Major sociological changes typically require several generations. I do not remember the 70's. What happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PUB78 1,357 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 10 hours ago, homersapien said: Pretty much the same as what are accepted by educated people as "enlightenment" views. Look it up for yourself. I am not your mama. Romans 1:22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 hours ago, PUB78 said: Romans 1:22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creed 1,635 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 21 hours ago, homersapien said: Did you read the linked essay? Have you looked up the enlightenment? If enlightenment equals reasoning based on the "real" truth without prejudice then I get it. Otherwise it's probably just opinion. Well, at least that's my opinion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strychnine 1,802 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, creed said: If enlightenment equals reasoning based on the "real" truth without prejudice then I get it. Otherwise it's probably just opinion. Well, at least that's my opinion.... He is referring to the Age of Enlightenment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autigeremt 6,592 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 There will be a calamity that will balance out the human race on this planet in the next century or less. Maybe even the next 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 hours ago, creed said: If enlightenment equals reasoning based on the "real" truth without prejudice then I get it. Otherwise it's probably just opinion. Well, at least that's my opinion.... I am referring to THE enlightenment, not the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Strychnine said: He is referring to the Age of Enlightenment. Thanks. I guess I was being obscure. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 2 hours ago, autigeremt said: There will be a calamity that will balance out the human race on this planet in the next century or less. Maybe even the next 50 years. More likely, a series of calamities that get progressively worse and more frequent. One could argue they have already started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strychnine 1,802 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 50 minutes ago, homersapien said: Thanks. I guess I was being obscure. My bad. Considering that the United States of America is basically a product of the Age of Enlightenment, I would consider it reasonable to expect everyone posting here to have understood what you meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Strychnine said: Considering that the United States of America is basically a product of the Age of Enlightenment, I would consider it reasonable to expect everyone posting here to have understood what you meant. Especially since it was emphasized in the linked essay this thread is about. It would be nice if responders would at least read the subject of the thread before commenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,777 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 10 hours ago, homersapien said: Romans 1:22King James Version (KJV) 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,777 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 hours ago, homersapien said: More likely, a series of calamities that get progressively worse and more frequent. One could argue they have already started. started many years before us homer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,357 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 12 hours ago, SaltyTiger said: started many years before us homer. What is it about "progressively worse and more frequent" you don't get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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