GOP Lawmaker Explains Why All Abortions Should Be Illegal

[icanthearyou 4,462]

We must yield to the "will" of God.  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-lawmaker-calls-rape-and-incest-will-of-god-in-defense-of-anti-abortion-bill-164242228.html

 

[AuburnNTexas 7,128]

I am against abortion but while Religion plays a part in my being against abortion as it help create my value system I am not against it because the Bible says no abortion as there is no mention of abortion in the Bible. My view is based on the Sanctity of Life. I believe we need to protect Life. I am against the death penalty. Killing should only be done for very specific reasons self defense, protecting another individual. In war situations where it is sadly kill or be killed.

I personally believe a fetus is a living human being from the moment of conception as such I believe the fetus needs protection. Rape and Incest are horrible things I can not begin to comprehend the amount of pain the woman goes through when this occurs. The person who committed the rape or incest needs to be punished and we need a very strong support system for the woman or girl who has been abused in this way. The problem is the child did not commit any crime and should not be punished with the death penalty.  I understand the concept that it is a woman's body and should have choice.  We all have choices but the choices end when our choice infringes on another person. 

With the exception of Rape and Incest the woman and the man had the choice of having sex or not having sex. They has the choice of doing it at a time during the woman's cycle where no child would be conceived and they had the choice to use protection when they had sex. The child was conceived because of the choices the man and the woman made but once the child is conceived I believe as a living being the child has rights also.

I have known woman who have had an abortion I pray for them as I realize what a tough decision they had to make. I don't judge them as I have never been in that position personally as a man so I have no right to Judge. I have talked with people at Planned Parenthood and most are good people who actually believe they are helping woman during a very stressful time. I tell them my viewpoint and pray for them but I do not judge them. 

Though I have not worked in the field for years I was a Biology Major at Auburn from a purely scientific perspective a fetus is a living being and as such needs protection as any living being does.

 

[alexava 6,973]

It's a reset button. Life offers few reset buttons. I don't believe a fetus is a life if the mother doesn't intend it to be. I support choices but limited in term. Even less than the 20 weeks now unless the mothers life is in jeopardy. Preferably before a heartbeat can be detected. It should not be a national debate. No one should know when it happens. A woman finds she is pregnant, she visits a clinic, she tells no one the clinic tells no one. It's done and there is nothing to debate. If you don't know it won't hurt you. 

[TitanTiger 20,471]

59 minutes ago, alexava said:

I don't believe a fetus is a life if the mother doesn't intend it to be.

This thinking makes no sense.  It has zero basis in science. Either it's a life or it's not - objectively.  It doesn't magically become human life because of the mother's intent anymore than a baby outside the womb is a human life based on the mother's intent.  

 

 

[alexava 6,973]

25 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

This thinking makes no sense.  It has zero basis in science. Either it's a life or it's not - objectively.  It doesn't magically become human life because of the mother's intent anymore than a baby outside the womb is a human life based on the mother's intent.  

 

 

I'm not speaking in science. I am using pure logic.  Forcing a girl to give birth when she is not ready ( when it can be easily fixed) Makes no sense morally or logically. Every person who would vote to make abortion illegal should be forced to adopt a child. 

[TitanTiger 20,471]

Just now, alexava said:

I'm not speaking in science. I am using pure logic.  Forcing a girl to give birth when she is not ready ( when it can be easily fixed) Makes no sense morally or logically. Every person who would vote to make abortion illegal should be forced to adopt a child. 

Pro-life people already adopt at a much higher rate than any other group.  The biggest group in terms of adoption rates in this country are evangelical Christians.  On top of that they donate time and money to non-profits that help pregnant women get the prenatal and other care they need to have their babies.  They're already putting their money and lives where they're mouth is.

The fact that you don't wish to have a girl go through a difficult time has no logical bearing on whether the child is a human being.  Third parties don't get to (rightly) dictate whether someone else is human anymore now than they did when the declared black people to be less than human.

[AuburnNTexas 7,128]

6 minutes ago, alexava said:

I'm not speaking in science. I am using pure logic.  Forcing a girl to give birth when she is not ready ( when it can be easily fixed) Makes no sense morally or logically. Every person who would vote to make abortion illegal should be forced to adopt a child. 

There are waiting lists for people trying to adopt often 2 or more years.So there is already an oversupply of people waiting to adopt .

I assume you believe in evolution and if confronted by a Christian who takes the Bible very literally and says that the earth has only been around a few thousand years you use science to prove your point. But now when science says that a fetus is a living being you go to personal moral views and ignore science.

I have as much empathy for a young girl young woman or older woman who has become pregnant and does not want the child. I like many Christians donate money so that the girl/woman can get free prenatal care and to provide options to keep the baby, put the baby up for adoption and if they keep the baby to help with the cost of the child.

The bottom line is science says a fetus is living it meets all the scientific criteria of life and I personally believe in the sanctity of life.

[homersapien 11,354]

2 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I am against abortion but while Religion plays a part in my being against abortion as it help create my value system I am not against it because the Bible says no abortion as there is no mention of abortion in the Bible. My view is based on the Sanctity of Life. I believe we need to protect Life. I am against the death penalty. Killing should only be done for very specific reasons self defense, protecting another individual. In war situations where it is sadly kill or be killed.

I personally believe a fetus is a living human being from the moment of conception as such I believe the fetus needs protection. Rape and Incest are horrible things I can not begin to comprehend the amount of pain the woman goes through when this occurs. The person who committed the rape or incest needs to be punished and we need a very strong support system for the woman or girl who has been abused in this way. The problem is the child did not commit any crime and should not be punished with the death penalty.  I understand the concept that it is a woman's body and should have choice.  We all have choices but the choices end when our choice infringes on another person. 

With the exception of Rape and Incest the woman and the man had the choice of having sex or not having sex. They has the choice of doing it at a time during the woman's cycle where no child would be conceived and they had the choice to use protection when they had sex. The child was conceived because of the choices the man and the woman made but once the child is conceived I believe as a living being the child has rights also.

I have known woman who have had an abortion I pray for them as I realize what a tough decision they had to make. I don't judge them as I have never been in that position personally as a man so I have no right to Judge. I have talked with people at Planned Parenthood and most are good people who actually believe they are helping woman during a very stressful time. I tell them my viewpoint and pray for them but I do not judge them. 

Though I have not worked in the field for years I was a Biology Major at Auburn from a purely scientific perspective a fetus is a living being and as such needs protection as any living being does.

 

At the moment of conception, it's a zygote, not a fetus.  

Been a while, huh?

[maxwere 82]

Evangelicals generally miss the framework of their argument.  (For them) It's about feminism.  Pregnancy is always a state of victimhood.  Specifically, woman is in place to decide life ($.02 to @alexava).  The woman is the autonomous god of her fetus.  Whether or not science, the bible, canon law or any other authority says it a fetus is life, is irrelevant to that argument.  Dismantle the framework first.  If not, you are just one sad incest/rape case study away from losing, big time.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

At the moment of conception, it's a zygote, not a fetus.  

Been a while, huh?

At all stages it is a human being deserving of life.  Zygote, embryo, fetus are stages of human development just as infant, toddler, child, teen and adult are.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

3 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I am against abortion but while Religion plays a part in my being against abortion as it help create my value system I am not against it because the Bible says no abortion as there is no mention of abortion in the Bible. My view is based on the Sanctity of Life. I believe we need to protect Life. I am against the death penalty. Killing should only be done for very specific reasons self defense, protecting another individual. In war situations where it is sadly kill or be killed.

I personally believe a fetus is a living human being from the moment of conception as such I believe the fetus needs protection. Rape and Incest are horrible things I can not begin to comprehend the amount of pain the woman goes through when this occurs. The person who committed the rape or incest needs to be punished and we need a very strong support system for the woman or girl who has been abused in this way. The problem is the child did not commit any crime and should not be punished with the death penalty.  I understand the concept that it is a woman's body and should have choice.  We all have choices but the choices end when our choice infringes on another person. 

With the exception of Rape and Incest the woman and the man had the choice of having sex or not having sex. They has the choice of doing it at a time during the woman's cycle where no child would be conceived and they had the choice to use protection when they had sex. The child was conceived because of the choices the man and the woman made but once the child is conceived I believe as a living being the child has rights also.

I have known woman who have had an abortion I pray for them as I realize what a tough decision they had to make. I don't judge them as I have never been in that position personally as a man so I have no right to Judge. I have talked with people at Planned Parenthood and most are good people who actually believe they are helping woman during a very stressful time. I tell them my viewpoint and pray for them but I do not judge them. 

Though I have not worked in the field for years I was a Biology Major at Auburn from a purely scientific perspective a fetus is a living being and as such needs protection as any living being does.

 

First off, this is one of the most well reasoned and rational pro-life stances I've heard.  I don't agree with most of it as I'm firmly pro-choice, but I wanted to commend your articulation of the argument and non-judgmental stance.

I do want to question one specific part of your post bolded above.  If you are saying that the "choices end when they infringe upon another person", then shouldn't that be reason enough for a woman who was raped to justify an abortion?  As you've said, she didn't ask for it and was actually the first to be infringed upon.  So why should she have to continue to live the horror of rape for nine months (and potentially more)?

As for incest, I believe that we should seriously look at terminating those pregnancies.  The odds are high that the child will be born with some genetic deficiency and even higher that it could be passed on if the child procreates down the line.  It's just not a healthy thing for us as a human race.

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, AuburnNTexas said:

There are waiting lists for people trying to adopt often 2 or more years.So there is already an oversupply of people waiting to adopt .

I assume you believe in evolution and if confronted by a Christian who takes the Bible very literally and says that the earth has only been around a few thousand years you use science to prove your point. But now when science says that a fetus is a living being you go to personal moral views and ignore science.

I have as much empathy for a young girl young woman or older woman who has become pregnant and does not want the child. I like many Christians donate money so that the girl/woman can get free prenatal care and to provide options to keep the baby, put the baby up for adoption and if they keep the baby to help with the cost of the child.

The bottom line is science says a fetus is living it meets all the scientific criteria of life and I personally believe in the sanctity of life.

Wrong. Maybe for newborns but there are tens of thousands of kids who are up for adoption and age out into adulthood every year. Are you pro life or pro birth? 

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a35860/adoption-statistics/

[TitanTiger 20,471]

10 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I do want to question one specific part of your post bolded above.  If you are saying that the "choices end when they infringe upon another person", then shouldn't that be reason enough for a woman who was raped to justify an abortion?  As you've said, she didn't ask for it and was actually the first to be infringed upon.  So why should she have to continue to live the horror of rape for nine months (and potentially more)?

She was infringed upon by the rapist.  The child inside her is an innocent party.  You don't provide justice for rape by killing an innocent.

 

10 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

As for incest, I believe that we should seriously look at terminating those pregnancies.  The odds are high that the child will be born with some genetic deficiency and even higher that it could be passed on if the child procreates down the line.  It's just not a healthy thing for us as a human race.

While it certainly isn't ideal, the child is not less human because of a defect, deficiency or the circumstances of its conception.

[maxwere 82]

34 minutes ago, homersapien said:

At the moment of conception, it's a zygote, not a fetus.  

Been a while, huh?

Why are you speaking dead languages homer? 

(zygote: greek for yoke, fetus: latin for child/offspring)

[TitanTiger 20,471]

3 minutes ago, alexava said:

Wrong. Maybe for newborns but there are tens of thousands of kids who are up for adoption and age out into adulthood every year. Are you pro life or pro birth? 

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a35860/adoption-statistics/

Nope.

-Babies, regardless of medical problems, who are “free for adoption,”generally do not wait long for families.

-There are waiting lists of couples who would like to adopt infants with Down Syndrome or Spina Bifida.

-The A K.I.D.S. Exchange reports that they have over 100 approved families waiting to adopt children with Down Syndrome.

-There are also a large number of couples who would like to adopt terminally ill babies, including babies with AIDS.

-There are between one and two million infertile and fertile couples and individuals who would like to adopt children.

http://www.abortionno.org/adoption-factsinfo/

The problems with adoptions aren't for a lack of willing parents, but for cost and bureaucratic red tape that makes the process long, difficult and expensive.  That's to say nothing of the others who would be willing but are fearful of doing so then having one of the parents come back years later and the courts allow them to take the adopted child away from it's new family.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

She was infringed upon by the rapist.  The child inside her is an innocent party.  You don't provide justice for rape by killing an innocent.

 

While it certainly isn't ideal, the child is not less human because of a defect, deficiency or the circumstances of its conception.

The clump of cells has no consciousness.  The raped, traumatized female does.  What you propose to force her to do is cruelty upon cruelty.

Your religion dictates such inhumane treatment?  Your religion allows you to make the choice without regard to her feelings?  Now that is an abomination.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

She was infringed upon by the rapist.  The child inside her is an innocent party.  You don't provide justice for rape by killing an innocent.

 

While it certainly isn't ideal, the child is not less human because of a defect, deficiency or the circumstances of its conception.

But you also don't provide justice for the rape victim here by forcing her to carry a child she didn't ask for.  Merely sending the rapist to jail does not solve her issue of having to suffer the consequences of a pregnancy.  You are essentially saying that the child's life is more important than the mother's in this case and damn the circumstances around it.  She's no less human either, yet you are treating her as so in this instance.

[AuburnNTexas 7,128]

1 hour ago, Brad_ATX said:

First off, this is one of the most well reasoned and rational pro-life stances I've heard.  I don't agree with most of it as I'm firmly pro-choice, but I wanted to commend your articulation of the argument and non-judgmental stance.

I do want to question one specific part of your post bolded above.  If you are saying that the "choices end when they infringe upon another person", then shouldn't that be reason enough for a woman who was raped to justify an abortion?  As you've said, she didn't ask for it and was actually the first to be infringed upon.  So why should she have to continue to live the horror of rape for nine months (and potentially more)?

As for incest, I believe that we should seriously look at terminating those pregnancies.  The odds are high that the child will be born with some genetic deficiency and even higher that it could be passed on if the child procreates down the line.  It's just not a healthy thing for us as a human race.

I understand your argument about Rape. There is no doubt that the woman's rights were infringed on but you would then try to repair the wrong that was done to the woman by taking away the life of an innocent who was not responsible for the rape. There is no great solution in the scenario. I just belief that life has to come first.

As for your the genetic issues with Incest. While there is some scientific validation for higher issues when related people have sex it is extremely small in first generation. Most of the issues you see are in isolated communities where there is multi-generational inbreeding. 

[TitanTiger 20,471]

3 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

But you also don't provide justice for the rape victim here by forcing her to carry a child she didn't ask for.  Merely sending the rapist to jail does not solve her issue of having to suffer the consequences of a pregnancy.  You are essentially saying that the child's life is more important than the mother's in this case and damn the circumstances around it.  She's no less human either, yet you are treating her as so in this instance.

Committing more violence isn't going to bring her healing.  It's not going to undo the rape.  It's going to add to the trauma.  It's not going to make her more human to kill another human for the sins of someone else.  Killing an innocent is what is dehumanizing.

What I am saying is, a life is equal to a life.  Hers is no more equal than that of the child and the child's is not more equal than the mother.  If the pregnancy was going to put the mother's life at risk, then we have an equality of circumstance.  But that's not what this is.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

3 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

The clump of cells has no consciousness.  The raped, traumatized female does.  What you propose to force her to do is cruelty upon cruelty.

Your religion dictates such inhumane treatment?  Your religion allows you to make the choice without regard to her feelings?  Now that is an abomination.

The "clump of cells" is a human being.  My religion respects human life.  If we are discussing what I believe is right and moral, you don't take innocent life because someone else did something abhorrent.  What happened to her is horrible.  Killing another who is innocent is not going to heal that.

Now, if you want to discuss pragmatism, less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape.  Another 1.5 to 2% is for the life of the mother, incest and such.  So if I could get us to agree to stop killing 97% of the ones we are currently killing as an after the fact birth control method, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

[alexava 6,973]

22 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The "clump of cells" is a human being.  My religion respects human life.  If we are discussing what I believe is right and moral, you don't take innocent life because someone else did something abhorrent.  What happened to her is horrible.  Killing another who is innocent is not going to heal that.

Now, if you want to discuss pragmatism, less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape.  Another 1.5 to 2% is for the life of the mother, incest and such.  So if I could get us to agree to stop killing 97% of the ones we are currently killing as an after the fact birth control method, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

This post  really just strengthens my pro choice position. Tremendously. I do respect and appreciate you as a Christian. Yet you don't take the conservative side of everything or much at all. But to force a girl to carry and give birth to a child planted by the devil himself is too much for me to even consider to be sanity. It establishes that it IS just a clump of cells. 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

49 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The "clump of cells" is a human being.  My religion respects human life.  If we are discussing what I believe is right and moral, you don't take innocent life because someone else did something abhorrent.  What happened to her is horrible.  Killing another who is innocent is not going to heal that.

Now, if you want to discuss pragmatism, less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape.  Another 1.5 to 2% is for the life of the mother, incest and such.  So if I could get us to agree to stop killing 97% of the ones we are currently killing as an after the fact birth control method, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

You should keep your morality to yourself and, stop attempting to force it on others,  That is truly despicable.  You are free to define human life any way you choose.  However, you are not free to define it for everyone.  Your definition denies the consciousness that makes us who we are.  To torture a conscious soul for the sake of your "morality" is evil.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

6 minutes ago, alexava said:

This post  really just strengthens my pro choice position. Tremendously. I do respect and appreciate you as a Christian. Yet you don't take the conservative side of everything or much at all. But to force a girl to carry and give birth to a child planted by the devil himself is too much for me to even consider to be sanity. It establishes that it IS just a clump of cells. 

I get it.  Out of a desire to save someone from suffering, it is normal to wish we could erase a painful memory such as rape. Unfortunately, the hard truth is that as much as we want to, we can’t.  Killing that human growing inside of her isn't going to erase anything.  Abortion after rape is misdirected anger. It doesn’t punish the perpetrator of the crime or prevent further assaults against other women.

And to refer to them specifically as a "clump of cells" with greater conviction because of how they were conceived is demeaning and dehumanizing.  What do you say to a kid that was born out of sexual assault?  That they are subhuman and never should have been born?

Truth is, both victims - the woman and her child - deserve our unconditional and comprehensive support.

 

[TitanTiger 20,471]

38 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

You should keep your morality to yourself and, stop attempting to force it on others,  That is truly despicable.  You are free to define human life any way you choose.  However, you are not free to define it for everyone.  Your definition denies the consciousness that makes us who we are.  To torture a conscious soul for the sake of your "morality" is evil.

Same to you buddy.  Let's start with not forcing a twisted morality on an innocent being.  Don't give me a speech about imposing morality - morality is being imposed either way.  You aren't coming from some position of neutrality no matter how much you might use such an illusion to salve your conscience.

When you're ready to discuss this with some semblance of civility, let me know.  Until then, I'm done discussing it with you.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

9 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Same to you buddy.  Let's start with not forcing a twisted morality on an innocent being.  Don't give me a speech about imposing morality - morality is being imposed either way.  You aren't coming from some position of neutrality no matter how much you might use such an illusion to salve your conscience.

When you're ready to discuss this with some semblance of civility, let me know.  Until then, I'm done discussing it with you.

Sorry but in this instance, you do not deserve respect or civility.  Your morality is baseless and perverse.