GordoAU

Punt and KO Returns

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I think KJ has no right doing Kickoff Returns and Punt Returns. He is too valuable to the team and is not exceptional at them anyway. On kickoffs I would really like to see Martin and JF3 returning. If they can hold onto the ball that speed would be killer. I just worry about KJ getting injured. I am sure there are people on the team that are less valuable and can return punts and kicks. Thoughts? Who would you like to see returning punts and kicks?

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I thought Roberts did a pretty good job with punts filling in last year he just needs a few more game reps to get more comfortable.  KR not sure JF3 is the choice there, fumbles to much and a kickoff return fumble is almost instant points for the other team.  I expect some one with a little more size or more natural guy with ball security, Slayton, J. Davis, J. Smith, K. Martin and the list goes on.  Definitely very important positions going forward.  I'm not a fan of KJ back there or wasn't last year.

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9 minutes ago, corchjay said:

I thought Roberts did a pretty good job with punts filling in last year he just needs a few more game reps to get more comfortable.  KR not sure JF3 is the choice there, fumbles to much and a kickoff return fumble is almost instant points for the other team.  I expect some one with a little more size or more natural guy with ball security, Slayton, J. Davis, J. Smith, K. Martin and the list goes on.  Definitely very important positions going forward.  I'm not a fan of KJ back there or wasn't last year.

I would really like to see Eli Stove back there. He could be very dangerous.

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I just hope they start to utilize the punt and kickoff return game before the Alabama game this year. With Davis we had a dynamic punt return game in 2013. I hope to see that return.

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I don't buy into kick returns being this major injury risk *to the return man* that so many people think it is. It's a big risk to the gunners and blockers, but not to the return men. The numbers just aren't there to support it. 

As @corchjay pointed out, there are multiple skills required of a good return man. Speed isn't at the top of the list. I doubt Devin Hester was ever the fastest man on his team after high school. 

That all said, we do have some electric athletes on the team and it would be great to see some big plays in the return game. 

 

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48 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

I don't buy into kick returns being this major injury risk *to the return man* that so many people think it is. It's a big risk to the gunners and blockers, but not to the return men. The numbers just aren't there to support it. 

As @corchjay pointed out, there are multiple skills required of a good return man. Speed isn't at the top of the list. I doubt Devin Hester was ever the fastest man on his team after high school. 

That all said, we do have some electric athletes on the team and it would be great to see some big plays in the return game. 

 

Agreed about the injuries and to the speed aspect to a degree. I don't want to see JFIII back there just because of his speed, but speed would be pretty high on my list. Hester played at Miami with some freaks so I'm not sure if he was the fastest guy on his team, but dude ran a 4.41 at the combine. He pretty past. 

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1 minute ago, Barnacle said:

Agreed about the injuries and to the speed aspect to a degree. I don't want to see JFIII back there just because of his speed, but speed would be pretty high on my list. Hester played at Miami with some freaks so I'm not sure if he was the fastest guy on his team, but dude ran a 4.41 at the combine. He pretty past. 

I didn't realize he was that fast. Maybe I'm thinking of him later in his career. And speed is definitely a major asset, I would just put some things above it. Of course, that evidently means that I agree with Gus, and I'm not sure how I feel about that since he's the worst coach ever and all.  >:D

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2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

I don't buy into kick returns being this major injury risk *to the return man* that so many people think it is. It's a big risk to the gunners and blockers, but not to the return men. The numbers just aren't there to support it. 

You've said it multiple times, but it doesn't agree with common sense (i.e. players having a 40 plus yard head start to ram into each other would make it logically seem that more injuries would occur.  So did a quick google for "NFL studies on kickoff return and injuries" and from the few I clicked on and looked at, it does seem that yes there are more injuries/concussions on those plays, and they are statistically significant.  Now it may not be much of an increase in practical terms, but it is there.

http://www.sbnation.com/2016/4/12/11340484/nfl-rule-changes-touchbacks-eliminate-kickoffs-player-safety

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3438866/

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2011/09/will-new-kickoff-rules-really-reduce.html

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000047303/article/concussions-decline-after-change-to-kickoff-rule

That being said, I'd prefer not to see any legitimate starter or crucial backup player returning kick offs.

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2 minutes ago, oracle79 said:

You've said it multiple times, but it doesn't agree with common sense (i.e. players having a 40 plus yard head start to ram into each other would make it logically seem that more injuries would occur.  

Not really. You don't have 300+ lb dudes rolling all over people's legs on kicks. You don't have quarterbacks following through on passes right onto dude's helmets. You don't have safeties tagging WRs in their ribs when they go high for a ball. You can get hurt a million ways in football and a high speed collision is only one of them. Only concussion I ever sustained in football was when I was lined up directly across from a guy who had freaky explosion in his legs. 

Quote

So did a quick google for "NFL studies on kickoff return and injuries" and from the few I clicked on and looked at, it does seem that yes there are more injuries/concussions on those plays, and they are statistically significant.  Now it may not be much of an increase in practical terms, but it is there.

http://www.sbnation.com/2016/4/12/11340484/nfl-rule-changes-touchbacks-eliminate-kickoffs-player-safety

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3438866/

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2011/09/will-new-kickoff-rules-really-reduce.html

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000047303/article/concussions-decline-after-change-to-kickoff-rule

Does any of that state that the return man himself is at greater risk for injuries? 

2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

I don't buy into kick returns being this major injury risk *to the return man* that so many people think it is. It's a big risk to the gunners and blockers, but not to the return men. The numbers just aren't there to support it. 

Also, from one of those links:

Quote

Further, looking back at the graph above, it appears that over the past few years, injury rates on kickoffs are in line with those on run and pass plays. In fact, in 2008 and 2009 the kickoff injury rates were lower than for typical scrimmage plays.

 

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5 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Does any of that state that the return man himself is at greater risk for injuries?

No idea as I didn't read them like I was in a graduate class...lol.  It wouldn't surprise me if the KOR is eliminated from football in the next 10 years though.

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Just now, oracle79 said:

No idea as I didn't read them like I was in a graduate class...lol.  It wouldn't surprise me if the KOR is eliminated from football in the next 10 years though.

Me either. And I'd be okay with it. Besides, as someone else noted, our best kick returns come off of missed field goals...

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Well despite injury and other issues KJ really was not a very good Kick Returner. Usually ran into the crowd and went down. He's a phenomenal RB but not at KR so much. I still think Martin and Eli Stove have the best intangibles for KR and if JF3 could find a lane he would be gone.

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2 minutes ago, GordoAU said:

Well despite injury and other issues KJ really was not a very good Kick Returner. Usually ran into the crowd and went down. He's a phenomenal RB but not at KR so much. I still think Martin and Eli Stove have the best intangibles for KR and if JF3 could find a lane he would be gone.

Very interested in Stove being back there 

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For me personally the greatest attributes for punt/kick return is...

ball security

getting north/south immediately 

returning to the intended return lane (this is big as it reduces the risks of holds and block in the back penalties since the blocker can position himself between the tackler and ball carrier)

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2 minutes ago, corchjay said:

returning to the intended return lane (this is big as it reduces the risks of holds and block in the back penalties since the blocker can position himself between the tackler and ball carrier)

Hadn't thought about that. Ball security is definitely priority number one. 

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1 hour ago, corchjay said:

For me personally the greatest attributes for punt/kick return is...

ball security

getting north/south immediately 

returning to the intended return lane (this is big as it reduces the risks of holds and block in the back penalties since the blocker can position himself between the tackler and ball carrier)

To add to this, I think quickness over speed is needed...especially as a PR

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3 minutes ago, bigbird said:

To add to this, I think quickness over speed is needed...especially as a PR

Definitely, and as an extension to quickness I'll add vision - Barry Sanders said he would use the way he eluded the tackler in front of him to set up the NEXT defender. That's a skill that my abilities never allowed me to even comprehend. 

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i'll agree i don't like having the #1 or #2 RB working special teams. But i also don't want any DBs doing it either since we are so thin there. SO my pick would be one of our bigger WR or a RB a little lower on the depth chart. 

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1 hour ago, oracle79 said:

No idea as I didn't read them like I was in a graduate class...lol.  It wouldn't surprise me if the KOR is eliminated from football in the next 10 years though.

To me the argument for not making valuable starters returners isn't that it's a kick off return. It's just that it's an extra play, and therefore another opportunity to get injured. Personally, I hope they don't get rid of KORs. 

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17 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Definitely, and as an extension to quickness I'll add vision - Barry Sanders said he would use the way he eluded the tackler in front of him to set up the NEXT defender. That's a skill that my abilities never allowed me to even comprehend. 

Le'veon Bell is another one who is incomprehensible. Run up to the LOS, stop, bounce left or right, cut up a step or two, bounce left or right, cut up a step or tow, bounce left or right... dude plays Frogger for 5 full seconds before he's even past the LOS. It's unreal. Sorry. I don't think I'm on topic anymore. I just haven't been so mystified by an RB since... Barry Sanders.

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Horton said on Tuesday I believe that JFIII will be a gunner.  Which is good for his skill set.  He also alluded to using JFIII on trick plays for kick returns.  Agree on KJ not being back there.  I never really supported any of our top tier RB's returning kickoffs, just to keep them as fresh as possible.  I do like Steven Roberts as a punt return man, and for kickoffs I like Kam Martin and possibly Barrett, who is coming in the Summer.  Eli Stove is also intriguing, but if we lose KD, I would want to minimize risk to our star receivers.  Ryan Davis could also be an option.  I think he was the fastest player on our team until JFIII signed on.

Edited by abw0004

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I don't have preference as to who to the return men should be,I just want better production than we have had the last few years.And know I don't like KJ as return man.Roberts did show some flashes at punt return last year or at least he looked better than M Davis.

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I think starters should definitely be on special teams especially early in the season.  You can win or lose easily on special teams. Old school folks still believe it's 1/3 of the game.  

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7 hours ago, bigbird said:

To add to this, I think quickness over speed is needed...especially as a PR

Could also describe it as suddenness.  Think Tre Mason... not fast not incredibly quick but great suddenness for those that need my definition of it

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KR should be Braden Smith. Who would want to hit that head on?

Edited by Gowebb11
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