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Casey Mize injury status (2nd Update 4/27/17)

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BT said fatigue/soreness is the reason for holding him out Friday. Still on the 27-man roster and could be available. Keegan will go Friday and Davis Saturday. TBA Sunday. 

 

Edited by ellitor

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If your a parent trying to find a place for your pitcher son to go ... you gotta think Butch would be at the top.  He can't be accused of risking the health of a player ... even in the midst of "historic" (recent history) results.

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Sure hate that but I can't help wonder ....these guys pitch on about a 6 or 7 day rotation and mostly have been held back on the number of pitches..hard to see how the "fatigue" issue has cropped up in our two top pitchers at not much past mid season.   KT seemed to benefit from his week off...hoping for the same with Mize.

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2 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Sure hate that but I can't help wonder ....these guys pitch on about a 6 or 7 day rotation and mostly have been held back on the number of pitches..hard to see how the "fatigue" issue has cropped up in our two top pitchers at not much past mid season.   KT seemed to benefit from his week off...hoping for the same with Mize.

You gotta remember a lot of these kids pitch year round with winter leagues & what not, which I don't think they should.

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Butch Interview. Can't embed it for whatever reason

From the link Daniel is moved up to Saturday & Sunday is TBA. Mize is officially doubtful for the weekend. Will handle him just like the Keegan situation.

Edited by ellitor

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Being a former pitcher, I can tell you that pitchers throw a lot.  In between starts, you're looking at long tossing, flat ground work, simulations, etc.  It builds up.  Even if you have 6 to 7 days in between, you have to throw a long bullpen, probably 60 pitches or so, in the middle of the week.  If you don't do this, you won't stay sharp.  It's kind of a double edged sword.  Take it easy, there's a chance you don't have your good stuff.  Work through your progressions during the week, you could get injured.  It sucks, but it looks like Butch is taking care of his pitchers.  That will help down the road. 

Jim Wells, who used to be at bammer, did not take care of his pitchers.  He's lucky he had a staff at the end of each season.

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1 hour ago, AU64 said:

Sure hate that but I can't help wonder ....these guys pitch on about a 6 or 7 day rotation and mostly have been held back on the number of pitches..hard to see how the "fatigue" issue has cropped up in our two top pitchers at not much past mid season.   KT seemed to benefit from his week off...hoping for the same with Mize.

"Fatigue" is just the over-the-counter term for any kind of soreness these kids have.  He probably has some kind of tendonitis or something like that.  It's more than likely nothing serious, but it does require them to shut down and go through a throwing rehab type program.  He probably did not throw for 3 or 4 days and now has to work back into form.  Hope he gets it back quick because he has been damn-near unhittable.

Edited by Gibson SG

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2 hours ago, ellitor said:

You gotta remember a lot of these kids pitch year round with winter leagues & what not, which I don't think they should.

I understand that is the case and I guess some of the over-work can happen then.  maybe it is just the nature of baseball but I can't imagine that basketball or football players can go off and free-lance during the summer without any supervision from the AU coaches....though maybe it does happen.    .

 

OOPS....brain cramp...now I remember all the Cape Leagues and Alaska leagues for college kids...but still, seems their primary coaches where they are on scholarship would have some control too. 

Edited by AU64

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It is still odd that our 2 top pitchers have both been shut down for arm fatigue and it is not even the end of the season. HAs this been happening to other SEC pitchers this year? I am wondering if this is a CBT pattern...

 

 

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1 hour ago, steeleagle said:

It is still odd that our 2 top pitchers have both been shut down for arm fatigue and it is not even the end of the season. HAs this been happening to other SEC pitchers this year? I am wondering if this is a CBT pattern...

 

 

It's natural to wonder that...and whether coaching or conditioning is at play....or is it a problem all teams are facing or just coincidence.

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2 hours ago, steeleagle said:

It is still odd that our 2 top pitchers have both been shut down for arm fatigue and it is not even the end of the season. HAs this been happening to other SEC pitchers this year? I am wondering if this is a CBT pattern...

 

 

 

Nope it's not CBT. It's a common problem and he is handling it exactly right.

https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/study-sheds-light-on-the-best-indicators-of-fatigue-in-baseball-pitchers

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Not to mention - how many teams have a couple of pitchers that are good enough or dominant enough to be able to pitch 7+ innings every weekend.  It's almost a curse of their own success.

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There are some that believe that just as many injuries occur because they don't throw enough.  Not innings piled on top of innings, just not enough medium stress throwing.  The flat ground, bullpen and long toss typically isn't stressful enough to accomplish arm conditioning.  These guys go from at most 75% for 45 pitches in the pen to 95 mph throwing downhill from a mound (which significantly increases the stress) with not enough in between.  Back in the day, when athletes didn't specialize, kids threw the football a lot in the fall and winter.  They really don't do that now.  I'm in the throw more camp.

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25 minutes ago, PowerOfDixieland said:

There are some that believe that just as many injuries occur because they don't throw enough.  Not innings piled on top of innings, just not enough medium stress throwing.  The flat ground, bullpen and long toss typically isn't stressful enough to accomplish arm conditioning.  These guys go from at most 75% for 45 pitches in the pen to 95 mph throwing downhill from a mound (which significantly increases the stress) with not enough in between.  Back in the day, when athletes didn't specialize, kids threw the football a lot in the fall and winter.  They really don't do that now.  I'm in the throw more camp.

What's your explanation for all the Tommy John injuries popping up at all levels? I think year round specialization is  a factor. I'm all for throwing a lot in the season but not year round. I am open to listen though.

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29 minutes ago, PowerOfDixieland said:

There are some that believe that just as many injuries occur because they don't throw enough.  Not innings piled on top of innings, just not enough medium stress throwing.  The flat ground, bullpen and long toss typically isn't stressful enough to accomplish arm conditioning.  These guys go from at most 75% for 45 pitches in the pen to 95 mph throwing downhill from a mound (which significantly increases the stress) with not enough in between.  Back in the day, when athletes didn't specialize, kids threw the football a lot in the fall and winter.  They really don't do that now.  I'm in the throw more camp.

You and Nolan Ryan.....has been a advocate for more work with his minor league pitchers in the Texas organization. And funny that as pitch counts have been reduced for major league pitchers, more of them are having arm problems... Interesting discussion at this link.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/madden-nolan-ryan-tommy-john-babying-pitchers-doesn-work-article-1.1730546

 

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Throwing in a game one day a week isn't enough to keep a pitcher's arm in top shape. These college pitchers aren't overworked, they are underworked.

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1 minute ago, ellitor said:

What's your explanation for all the Tommy John injuries popping up at all levels? I think year round specialization is  a factor. I'm all for throwing a lot in the season but not year round. I am open to listen though.

It's my understanding that tommy john surgery prevalence, especially in the youth camp is due to immature arms receiving excessive stress from torque pitches, i.e. Curves/sliders/split fingers. These pitches put a lot of stress on tendon fibers in the elbow that are already stressed from simple growth spurts. With the internet, youtube in particular, kids and parents have access to much more baseball information than simple word of mouth in the past. In the 70-80's a pitching prodigy might not learn how to throw a curveball till high school because he just didn't have access to the knowledge. Now we've got dad's teaching 8-year-olds the proper grip from youtube instructional videos and sending them out there.

As for the injury adults, i think a lot of it is better diagnostic tools and greater awareness. It's akin to the autism issue we're facing, most researchers don't think there's an actual increase in the number of individuals being born autistic, we're just getting much better at identifying and diagnosing it. Before tommy john surgery, if you hurt your elbow, you rested and tried to pitch again or retired, but now that we have the surgery people with the injury are getting it.

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33 minutes ago, AU64 said:

You and Nolan Ryan.....has been a advocate for more work with his minor league pitchers in the Texas organization. And funny that as pitch counts have been reduced for major league pitchers, more of them are having arm problems... Interesting discussion at this link.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/madden-nolan-ryan-tommy-john-babying-pitchers-doesn-work-article-1.1730546

 

Good article. First, kudos to BT for protecting Casey until he's fully healthy. Regarding today's pitchers, I believe they are becoming too big and tight. The baseball throwing motion is very unnatural as is. Couple that with kids arms being ground down in youth leagues, and pitchers who are thicker than linebackers used to be, and bad things are bound to happen. Just my opinion. 

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Tommy John surgery wasn't a thing until Frank Jobe figured out how to do it. Every old timer who ever pitched at a high level ended their career with an arm injury. Most likely a torn rotator cuff or the blown UCL. Now they can fix it and they do. And as 13 alludes to and Nolan Ryan points out in the article 64 references (I think), the total availability of MRI equipment makes precise diagnosis universally available. 

But I believe the biggest problem is the God forsaken radar gun. With that there is a perceived benchmark that "must" be reached at every level. Most coaches hate the gun and it's funny how velocity is of critical importance until they get to the bigs. Nowadays there are two kinds of pitchers...those who are injured and those who will be. Nobody gets out unscathed. 

Edited by PowerOfDixieland
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18 hours ago, AU64 said:

Sure hate that but I can't help wonder ....these guys pitch on about a 6 or 7 day rotation and mostly have been held back on the number of pitches..hard to see how the "fatigue" issue has cropped up in our two top pitchers at not much past mid season.

This is nothing new.  In 1991-92 one of my classmates was a freshman pitcher for Auburn and had been a star in high school/summer leagues. Just going through college level workouts (he didn't pitch in games as a freshman) caused him to throw his arm out and actually ended his career. These guys throw a lot and push themselves a lot too.

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11 hours ago, wareagle13 said:

It's my understanding that tommy john surgery prevalence, especially in the youth camp is due to immature arms receiving excessive stress from torque pitches, i.e. Curves/sliders/split fingers. These pitches put a lot of stress on tendon fibers in the elbow that are already stressed from simple growth spurts. With the internet, youtube in particular, kids and parents have access to much more baseball information than simple word of mouth in the past. In the 70-80's a pitching prodigy might not learn how to throw a curveball till high school because he just didn't have access to the knowledge. Now we've got dad's teaching 8-year-olds the proper grip from youtube instructional videos and sending them out there.

As for the injury adults, i think a lot of it is better diagnostic tools and greater awareness. It's akin to the autism issue we're facing, most researchers don't think there's an actual increase in the number of individuals being born autistic, we're just getting much better at identifying and diagnosing it. Before tommy john surgery, if you hurt your elbow, you rested and tried to pitch again or retired, but now that we have the surgery people with the injury are getting it.

Curve balls, if thrown properly, have nothing to do with Tommy John surgery.  I pitched through college and threw the same curve ball at 9 years olds that I did when I was 22.  My 8 year old throws the same curve ball now.  It is not the 12 to 6 elbow bender, but a variation of the "slurve" that puts does not put stress in the elbow.  It basically has more of 1 to 7 action and you can throw it harder. 

Tommy John surgery comes from not using the proper mechanics.  You're right, people who have no baseball background get on YouTube to learn how to pitch, or they send their kids to lessons before researching who the person giving lessons is.  99.9% of arm injuries can be prevented if the kids use proper mechanics.  While coaching my 8 year olds team, I cringe when I see how kids are taught to pitch.  They may throw hard, but they will never reach their potential until they are properly taught.  If any in the league throw a curve ball, mechanically, they are killing their arm. 

I'm not saying I was a world beater by any means, but I avoided injury because I was very meticulous about my mechanics.  I'm the same way with my son.  Pitching is such a fun position because it is one on one with the batter.  But mechanics are the main issue with why Tommy John surgery is happening in young kids.  And, Tommy John surgery should be outlawed for anyone under 16 years old because they are still developing.  Dr. Andrews has said that he has had 10-12 yr olds parents coming to him asking him to perform Tommy John on their uninjured son so it will help them throw harder.  Just remember, less than 50% of Tommy John surgeries result in throwing harder and when they do, it averages only a couple miles an hour.

Sorry for the rant.  I'm very passionate about this subject.

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Times have changed....when I was a kid we got no instruction and from age 13 through HS I lived on the ball diamond in the summers... I sometimes pitched 2 or 3 times a week and was  a catcher the days I  didn't pitch.   All those years I threw 3/4 and had a little "slurve" as noted above that caused no problems for me.   In my Sr year in HS my coach wanted me to throw an overhand breaking pitch...raised my arm angle, etc and by the end of my year I was suffering tendonitis elbow and shoulder...which has been a problem ever since though I played some serious Tennis after HS at AU and elsewhere which probably kept the problem alive.  Basically most arms and shoulders are not well designed for pitching a baseball overhand.

At least most kids have access to instructional videos as they grow up but many probably still have questionable coaching I guess. 

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So how could it be 40-50 years ago MLB pitchers were throwing 8, 9, or even extra innings in games, and they had long careers as pitchers? It was nothing for throwing over 120- 150 pitches. 

It's hard to believe it has to do with what they threw in little leagues or in HS. THey all threw curve balls, or even sliders etc..back then.

And for every study that one side trots out here to support their side, there are just as many touting the other side of the argument.

I have no answers..but I think CBT is protecting these pitchers because he knows and wants them to make it to MLB...and not make it because their college coach overworked them...He is protecting their future career and i appreciate that...

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49 minutes ago, steeleagle said:

So how could it be 40-50 years ago MLB pitchers were throwing 8, 9, or even extra innings in games, and they had long careers as pitchers? It was nothing for throwing over 120- 150 pitches. 

It's hard to believe it has to do with what they threw in little leagues or in HS. THey all threw curve balls, or even sliders etc..back then.

And for every study that one side trots out here to support their side, there are just as many touting the other side of the argument.

I have no answers..but I think CBT is protecting these pitchers because he knows and wants them to make it to MLB...and not make it because their college coach overworked them...He is protecting their future career and i appreciate that...

I think pitchers have evolved, are throwing harder, but are also babied a little more.  Yes, pitchers did throw more in the old days.  Hell, we had rag arms when I played little league 25 years ago.  But, like POD said earlier, I think a lot of kids are getting hurt because they don't throw enough.  Again, danged if you do, danged if you don't.  But, I think the pitch counts, no throwing in between starts, etc has caused problems.  Not that I'm against pitch counts, but at some point you have to work your out before it can maintain the level you want it.  I don't know.  It's a touchy subject.  Hope Mize gets back soon.

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2 hours ago, Gibson SG said:

Curve balls, if thrown properly, have nothing to do with Tommy John surgery.  I pitched through college and threw the same curve ball at 9 years olds that I did when I was 22.  My 8 year old throws the same curve ball now.  It is not the 12 to 6 elbow bender, but a variation of the "slurve" that puts does not put stress in the elbow.  It basically has more of 1 to 7 action and you can throw it harder. 

Tommy John surgery comes from not using the proper mechanics.  You're right, people who have no baseball background get on YouTube to learn how to pitch, or they send their kids to lessons before researching who the person giving lessons is.  99.9% of arm injuries can be prevented if the kids use proper mechanics.  While coaching my 8 year olds team, I cringe when I see how kids are taught to pitch.  They may throw hard, but they will never reach their potential until they are properly taught.  If any in the league throw a curve ball, mechanically, they are killing their arm. 

I'm not saying I was a world beater by any means, but I avoided injury because I was very meticulous about my mechanics.  I'm the same way with my son.  Pitching is such a fun position because it is one on one with the batter.  But mechanics are the main issue with why Tommy John surgery is happening in young kids.  And, Tommy John surgery should be outlawed for anyone under 16 years old because they are still developing.  Dr. Andrews has said that he has had 10-12 yr olds parents coming to him asking him to perform Tommy John on their uninjured son so it will help them throw harder.  Just remember, less than 50% of Tommy John surgeries result in throwing harder and when they do, it averages only a couple miles an hour.

Sorry for the rant.  I'm very passionate about this subject.

I'm glad you were able to escape injury, and you're right Mechanics are probably the single most important determinant risk factor for ending up with a UCL tear needing Tommy John Surgery. Second only to year round baseball. The debate around more innings or less innings, more conditioning or more rest, can be traced back to the rise of sports specialization.

Any sport puts stress on your body. Stress is a good thing in the right doses. You need stress to challenge your body, strengthen it, harden it, and test it's limits. But the body also requires rest, long periods of rest necessary for growth. If you were 5'5" in the middle of a growth spurt and are supposed to grow 5 inches, and someone made you sleep in a box that was only 5'8" long, what do you think your maximum height would be? Closer to 5'8" than 5'10" for sure. Pitching, even with proper mechanics, puts a lot of torque stress on your elbow and shoulder. So basically you are putting micro-tears in your tendon every time you throw a ball hard enough (like strength training it's not inherently bad and used to develop strength). Putting those tears so young in your elbow causes the tendon to strengthen, but strength often makes it more difficult to stretch. So the tendon doesn't stretch and grow as long but the arm might continue to lengthen. So now you've got a longer arm, with a strong but shortened tendon that's getting year round abuse and can't compensate as well and can't rest as long.

That's my theory as to why we are seeing the rise in tommy john surgery in youth baseball.

tl;dr: increased sports specialization is creating insurmountable stress (even with the best mechanics) causing the elbow not to develop correctly leading to susceptible individuals for UCL tear.  

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