Unlike Urban Meyer, Gene Chizik really is a coach who quit to spend more time with his family

[McLoofus 35,182]

Lion, I'm with you on the shady aspects of how Urbs left UF, but you don't win multiple* national championships in modern college football without being a damn good coach. It doesn't matter if you have Tebow, it doesn't matter if you buy all the players that bama has, it doesn't matter if your schedule is weak. Those things will make it a little easier but you have to be extremely good at a lot of things to win multiple* championships. 

*I specify "multiple" because lightning does occasionally strike. (Thanks, Kenny Rogers!)

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

39 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Lion, I'm with you on the shady aspects of how Urbs left UF, but you don't win multiple* national championships in modern college football without being a damn good coach. It doesn't matter if you have Tebow, it doesn't matter if you buy all the players that bama has, it doesn't matter if your schedule is weak. Those things will make it a little easier but you have to be extremely good at a lot of things to win multiple* championships. 

*I specify "multiple" because lightning does occasionally strike. (Thanks, Kenny Rogers!)

...multiple times. Probably what you meant? but kind'a astounding he was once considered an up-and-coming rocker.

 

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, AUld fAUx@ said:

...multiple times. Probably what you meant? but kind'a astounding he was once considered an up-and-coming rocker

Equally astounding that he (and they) charted a straight up drug anthem. Alas, I was referencing another Kenny Rogers, as I'm of the opinion that he did indeed deliver Cam to our doorstep. (Only inadvertently, and without any money ever exchanging hands or even being discussed outside of Starkville.)

As for lightning, it strikes multiple times, but not in the same Gene Chizik tenure at Auburn place. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Lion, I'm with you on the shady aspects of how Urbs left UF, but you don't win multiple* national championships in modern college football without being a damn good coach. It doesn't matter if you have Tebow, it doesn't matter if you buy all the players that bama has, it doesn't matter if your schedule is weak. Those things will make it a little easier but you have to be extremely good at a lot of things to win multiple* championships. 

*I specify "multiple" because lightning does occasionally strike. (Thanks, Kenny Rogers!)

I get what you're saying but I really do wonder if the definition of "damn good coach" these days isn't more about describing someone who is a master of gaming the system, vs someone who could sit across the table from some legends and go toe-to-toe when it comes to technique and strategy for the game. I seriously look at the coaches that are most revered around here and what I see is a handful of shady guys who beat the system.

Or to put it another way... I would love to sit down with Spurrier and hear what he really thinks of them.

Oh... and for the record, had Cam stayed for his senior year, ala Tebow, Chizik could have won 2... and been around a lot longer. Our team was seriously depleted in 2011, but I never underestimate Cam.

[triangletiger 1,599]

8 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I get what you're saying but I really do wonder if the definition of "damn good coach" these days isn't more about describing someone who is a master of gaming the system, vs someone who could sit across the table from some legends and go toe-to-toe when it comes to technique and strategy for the game. I seriously look at the coaches that are most revered around here and what I see is a handful of shady guys who beat the system.

Or to put it another way... I would love to sit down with Spurrier and hear what he really thinks of them.

Oh... and for the record, had Cam stayed for his senior year, ala Tebow, Chizik could have won 2... and been around a lot longer. Our team was seriously depleted in 2011, but I never underestimate Cam.

Some would say that Bear Bryant was a master of 'gaming the system'.

[GwillMac6 20,666]

3 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

My question about his natty at Ohio State is, would have he even played for it if he had been in a harder conference? Sure they beat bama, but bama had endured a SEC season, while Ohio State beat a bunch of middle of the road teams, lost to unranked Virginia Tech, took 2 overtimes to beat unranked Penn State, and survived a comeback by a touchdown to unranked Minnesota. I have 0 respect for Ohio State, because they play no one, so they have practically a free ride to a shot at the championship each year, and they still cheated pre-Urban. Then Urban came in and pi$$ed on all of the conference's gentlemen's agreements about recruiting so he could build a juggernaut that couldn't be touched by the rest of the conference.

Oh, and for the record, Georgia finished middle of the SEC East in 2006.

The big 10 has a gold mine of good coaches in it compared to the sec now. He is going toe to toe with legends compared to the sec NOW. Saban is beating up on the weakest crop of sec coaches we have ever seen. The big 10 has the best collection of coaches these days. Urban, Harbaugh, Mark Dantonio, James Franklin and Paul Chryst are all fine football coaches. Compare that crop of coaches to sec now and it is not even close. The first 4 of 6 years Urban was at Florida Georgia went: 10-3, 9-4, 11-2 and 10-3. Georgia was not down. They were same ol georgia. Urbs went 5-1 vs them. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I get what you're saying but I really do wonder if the definition of "damn good coach" these days isn't more about describing someone who is a master of gaming the system, vs someone who could sit across the table from some legends and go toe-to-toe when it comes to technique and strategy for the game. I seriously look at the coaches that are most revered around here and what I see is a handful of shady guys who beat the system.

They're definitely a handful of shady guys who beat the system. But there are lots of other shady guys who have beaten the system and who were really good coaches who haven't achieved the level of success that these guys have. Yes, being successful in today's college football means a lot of things other than Xs and Os, but at the end of the day you have to maximize the talent of even a 5*-studded roster and get them to play the way you want them to to win at the level that saban and Myer have. 

10 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

Oh... and for the record, had Cam stayed for his senior year, ala Tebow, Chizik could have won 2... 

We almost lost to Kentucky in 2010, among others. 5 games won by a field goal or less. Another 2 by a touchdown. We lost Nick Fairley and four senior starters off the OL. At least 3 of them had been 4 year starters. We lost Aairon Savage, Terrell Zachary, Wes Byrum and Ryan Shoemaker, Josh Bynes, Antoine Carter, Zac Etheridge, Kodi Burns, Zach Clayton... and those are just the seniors. (Maaaaaaybe DA comes back if Cam does. No way Fairley does.) Absolutely no way we win a title in 2011, even with Cam. 

[keesler 5,924]

27 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I get what you're saying but I really do wonder if the definition of "damn good coach" these days isn't more about describing someone who is a master of gaming the system, vs someone who could sit across the table from some legends and go toe-to-toe when it comes to technique and strategy for the game. I seriously look at the coaches that are most revered around here and what I see is a handful of shady guys who beat the system.

Or to put it another way... I would love to sit down with Spurrier and hear what he really thinks of them.

Oh... and for the record, had Cam stayed for his senior year, ala Tebow, Chizik could have won 2... and been around a lot longer. Our team was seriously depleted in 2011, but I never underestimate Cam.

The coaches that are revered around here have proven that they know how to go toe-to-toe with the best in the business and more times than not, they can beat the best.  

Do you hold Spurrier in high esteem, and value his opinion of some of the best college coaches today?  

He did a fantastic coaching job at USCe for a time, but while under his watch the program was placed on 3 years of probation with the NCAA for "cheating the system" by allowing his players to live rent free in hotels for months on end.  While under his watch, the football program racked up over $50,000 in impermissible benefits, lost half a dozen scholarships, had to reduce their recruiting visits by 50% and got tagged with Failure to Monitor.  Now if that's not "beating the system", I don't know what is.   Hell, one football player stayed in the hotel for over a freaking year.....free HBO, free ice, free maid service and fresh towels & clean toilets everyday for over a year.

I'd like to sit down and ask Stevo why he is a quitter and voluntarily left his team, and players mid-season.  Urban at the very least had the decency to finish the season.

[keesler 5,924]

9 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

We almost lost to Kentucky in 2010, among others. 5 games won by a field goal or less. Another 2 by a touchdown. We lost Nick Fairley and four senior starters off the OL. At least 3 of them had been 4 year starters. We lost Aairon Savage, Terrell Zachary, Wes Byrum and Ryan Shoemaker, Josh Bynes, Antoine Carter, Zac Etheridge, Kodi Burns, Zach Clayton... and those are just the seniors. (Maaaaaaybe DA comes back if Cam does. No way Fairley does.) Absolutely no way we win a title in 2011, even with Cam. 

Cam didn't win that 2010 title all by himself, and he damn sure wouldn't have done it with the mass exodus of experienced, fundamentally developed players we lost after that 2010 season.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, keesler said:

Cam didn't win that 2010 title all by himself, and he damn sure wouldn't have done it with the mass exodus of experienced, fundamentally developed players we lost after that 2010 season.

Nope. 

I failed to mention that we also had a very home-friendly schedule. USC, Clemson, LSU, Arkansas and UGA all at home. bama was our only ranked road opponent in the regular season. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, triangletiger said:

Some would say that Bear Bryant was a master of 'gaming the system'.

Can't say I disagree with that...

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, keesler said:

Cam didn't win that 2010 title all by himself, and he damn sure wouldn't have done it with the mass exodus of experienced, fundamentally developed players we lost after that 2010 season.

He did not... but he had the uncanny ability to get everyone around him to play at their maximum potential. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, keesler said:

Do you hold Spurrier in high esteem, and value his opinion of some of the best college coaches today?

I look at Spurrier as someone who was at the top of his game when it was more about Xs and Os than recruiting trophies. I also see him as one of the few who have "been there" who would have no trouble stating his opinion, which is the reason I singled him out.  Most of the others who might speak with the same level of candor are, unfortunately, no longer with us.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

We almost lost to Kentucky in 2010, among others. 5 games won by a field goal or less. Another 2 by a touchdown. We lost Nick Fairley and four senior starters off the OL. At least 3 of them had been 4 year starters. We lost Aairon Savage, Terrell Zachary, Wes Byrum and Ryan Shoemaker, Josh Bynes, Antoine Carter, Zac Etheridge, Kodi Burns, Zach Clayton... and those are just the seniors. (Maaaaaaybe DA comes back if Cam does. No way Fairley does.) Absolutely no way we win a title in 2011, even with Cam. 

The great intangible about Cam, and what I believe is the reason we won the close games in 2010, was that Cam is ridiculously charismatic and has the ability to get those around them to play to the best of their ability. There was a lot of of talent on that 2011 team that could have grown into something great if they had a team leader to motivate them... and it wouldn't have hurt that he had the uncanny knack for improvising when protection broke down.

[McLoofus 35,182]

20 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

The great intangible about Cam, and what I believe is the reason we won the close games in 2010, was that Cam is ridiculously charismatic and has the ability to get those around them to play to the best of their ability. There was a lot of of talent on that 2011 team that could have grown into something great if they had a team leader to motivate them... and it wouldn't have hurt that he had the uncanny knack for improvising when protection broke down.

Oh, they would have been much, much better. They would not have beaten LSU (L 45-10), UGA (45-7) or bama (42-14). They likely wouldn't have beaten Arkansas (38-14). 

That team could have grown into something great if they'd all stuck together and they'd had adequate coaching. In fact, that's exactly what happened... in 2013.  

Cam makes his teammates better, but he doesn't make them good. Ask the 2016 Carolina Panthers about that. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

That team could have grown into something great if they'd all stuck together and they'd had adequate coaching. In fact, that's exactly what happened... in 2013.  

You don't think it might have happened faster if they had higher moral in 11? I mean, it's all speculation, but had the team had a more solid foundation that year, maybe Dyer would have gotten his crap together.  Maybe the trailer park 4 would have found something better to do with their time. Maybe Frazier finds his groove backing up Cam. Maybe Malzahn doesn't become disgruntled. A lot could have been different had the team not lost all of their leaders, including their main one.

6 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Cam makes his teammates better, but he doesn't make them good. Ask the 2016 Carolina Panthers about that.

You know as well as I that the Pros and College are night and day different. The college game runs on emotion. The pro game runs on money.

[augolf1716 21,103]

3 hours ago, triangletiger said:

Some would say that Bear Bryant was a master of 'gaming the system'.

He help invent it

[WarDamnEagleWDE 12,737]

On 5/15/2017 at 5:37 PM, GwillMac6 said:

I do not think the media trys to paint Urbs as this great wholesome aw shucks family man like they do with Dabo. The media knows all about his "alleged" affairs at florida with co eds. They know he is a very confident and downright cocky and arrogant coach. They just do not let them get in the way of how they cover him when it strictly comes to being a football coach. They just compliment his greatness which he is due. The man is a great coach. I cannot deny that. 3 national titles and he is 12 years younger than Saban. Unlike Saban he has won big at every stop he has been at. even bowling green and utah. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I'm not a huge fan of Dabo. But I know some people who are friends with Dabo, one gut grew up with him, and all say he is a great guy. No "shady" concerning his family life. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

19 minutes ago, WarDamnEagleWDE said:

I'm not a huge fan of Dabo. But I know some people who are friends with Dabo, one gut grew up with him, and all say he is a great guy. No "shady" concerning his family life. 

If he just didn't have so much bama in him....

[McLoofus 35,182]

17 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

A lot could have been different had the team not lost all of their leaders

My original point of contention came when you said that, with Cam, the 2011 team could have won a championship. It seems we now agree that might have been an overstatement, unless you include all of the many other players who were critical to the 2010 championship (and don't forget the friendly schedule with only 1 ranked opponent on the road).

Quote

The college game runs on emotion. The pro game runs on money.

Too much is made of this. When NFL guys step on the field, they want to win just as badly as college kids do. You don't get there without having a freakish competitive drive. Yes, there are exceptions, just like with college. But you look at any Super Bowl winning team and there will be emotional leaders and team chemistry, as well as an intense desire and will to win. Money only dictates which team a guy is trying to win with. 

Cam was Mr. Charisma for the entire 2010 season. It was amazing. We'll never see anything like it again. I'm glad that we never had to find out how he would have reacted if we had lost a couple games, though. We would have in 2011. Ask people in Charlotte about it. It's not their favorite thing. Emotion has a LOT to do with the Panthers' success or lack thereof, and you're right, it starts with him. 

[keesler 5,924]

3 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Cam was Mr. Charisma for the entire 2010 season. It was amazing. We'll never see anything like it again. I'm glad that we never had to find out how he would have reacted if we had lost a couple games, though. We would have in 2011. Ask people in Charlotte about it. It's not their favorite thing. Emotion has a LOT to do with the Panthers' success or lack thereof, and you're right, it starts with him. 

Yet another blessing for the AU faithful from the '10 season.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

12 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

My original point of contention came when you said that, with Cam, the 2011 team could have won a championship.

The key word is "could". I really think it could have happened.  I'm not going to say it was likely or anything like that, but there is no way to know how quickly the new players would have progressed if we were able to just play the same game we played the previous year, and they had their emotional leader, who accounted for a huge percentage of the previous year's offense, behind center.

12 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

When NFL guys step on the field, they want to win just as badly as college kids do.

The difference is that generally NFL guys don't get down and give up. The get a few beers that night and then come back to work the next day. They are paid to do a job and they do it, win or lose. College kids, on the other hand, can let it build up until it effects their game (see 2014).

12 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

I'm glad that we never had to find out how he would have reacted if we had lost a couple games, though. We would have in 2011. Ask people in Charlotte about it. It's not their favorite thing.

I think the atmosphere of the NFL has a lot to do with why Cam acts differently there than he did at Auburn. Look at all the crap he weathered at Auburn and still kept positive. It's the college atmosphere and a staff who focus on supporting the team, not running a business, that allows someone like him to be an emotional beacon and stay positive in the face of negativity. I don't doubt he would mope immediately after a loss, but I think at Auburn, he would have turned the loss into fuel for the next battle, because the staff would be supporting him like they did with all of the media crap.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

It's the college atmosphere and a staff who focus on supporting the team, not running a business, that allows someone like him to be an emotional beacon and stay positive in the face of negativity. 

No offense, but I think you just cited one of Chizik's staff's worst shortcomings as a positive. I have never seen a team give up the way his did mid-2011, nor have I seen one give up before the season even started as they did going into 2012. 

By the way, NFL coaches are much more free to support the team as opposed to running a business than college coaches are. NFL coaches don't have to recruit, they don't have to deal with boosters, they don't have to worry about kids staying academically eligible, they get to let the league handle discipline, they only have 53 players to worry about... *all* they have to do is support the team. You said it yourself- the successful coach in modern college football doesn't necessarily have to be *great* at coaching. And I contend that they do have to be master motivators and managers of personality, no matter how talented the roster, but I think that's 100% true at the pro level, also. Ask any Atlanta Falcon who played for Mike Smith and then for Dan Quinn, or any Seattle Seahawk who was still there when Pete Carroll showed up. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, McLoofus said:

No offense, but I think you just cited one of Chizik's staff's worst shortcomings as a positive. I have never seen a team give up the way his did mid-2011, nor have I seen one give up before the season even started as they did going into 2012. 

I don't think it was just the team that gave up.  I think Chizik and Malzahn were at odds and it trickled down. I also think a lot of that had to do with the fact that they had no leaders left on the team for the players to look up to and emulate. Instead you had a bunch of kids with "I won a championship" syndrome with no one among their ranks to keep them in check and provide good examples. 

I still believe that the Malzahns (Gus and Kristi) were the one's who handled the players for Chizik's staff... After all, when he left we went from a staff who masterfully handled the Cam/media mess to one who thought curfews were the way to solve team problems.

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

By the way, NFL coaches are much more free to support the team as opposed to running a business than college coaches are.

Yes, they are more free to support them, monetarily, but they don't have near the time commitment or access that a college coach has to invest in them emotionally. In the pros, you have the huge difference that, at the end of the day, everyone goes home alone... they aren't with the team 24/7, and the coaches can't just go to one dorm to have access. 

I would argue that the other big difference is that it's not seen as a priority.  These are grown men who work for them, not boys who need to be coddled when they get their feelings hurt. Sure, they have a financial, legal, or other issue, the team can throw money at it, provide experts, etc., but when it comes to dealing with the emotions of the game, I imagine it's a lot more "suck it up and play" both on the part of the staff and the other players. Bring in a player who runs hot an cold, like Cam, and that is seen as a weakness that needs to go away (which, over time, it probably does... to a certain level), not something that needs extra support. I imagine most coaches and players see college as where that kind of thing should be dealt with.

I can't truly psychoanalyze Cam, because I don't know him, but I will say this from personal experience... it is EXTREMELY hard to be the emotional leader of something without having someone else dedicated to helping you stay emotionally fueled up. And as a man, with all that testosterone and stuff, it's very hard to ask someone to provide that, especially in an environment where weakness is a huge negative. Guys like Cam thrive in an environment where support is openly provided.

[GwillMac6 20,666]

4 hours ago, WarDamnEagleWDE said:

I'm not a huge fan of Dabo. But I know some people who are friends with Dabo, one gut grew up with him, and all say he is a great guy. No "shady" concerning his family life. 

I believe it! My point was the media def plays up that narrative of him though being this great family man. Glad to hear it is actually true and I can really see that to be honest.... but yah still despise him and do not like him lol. Like lionheart said TOO MUCH BAMA in that man.