Not news: Clinton campaign aided by Ukrainian government

[homersapien 11,367]

On 7/15/2017 at 1:08 PM, TexasTiger said:

I've said very little in this thread, and certainly nothing controversial or overtly partisan to a rational person. Rant on like a crazy man David. It's what you do.

I can't even figure out what he's trying to say.  

[homersapien 11,367]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

You stated that. I asked if it was illegal when Gore sought out Poverty Vowed Chinese Buddhist Monks for $100Ks in donations as the Clinton-Gore Campaign's chief fundraiser?

You, as you have for 15 or so years here, instead of answering a question replied with more questions.  

 

That's not fair DKW, you threw that out with no qualifications.  It's fair game to question your point.

Let's be honest, you're not exactly coherent all the time.

 

 

[DKW 86 7,419]

Here, I will explain The Sewing Circle Rules of the Forum so even you two can understand it:

Whatever we talk about on this forum, if the conversation doesnt go your way:  JUST BLAME THE RUSSIANS. Even when there is zero evidence, zero credibility, or even scads of other sane options explaining whats going on, ALWAYS BLAME THE RUSSIANS. That is sssooo much better than having a grown up conversation.

If you are ever asked any question, EVER, always answer by asking never-ending inane, obtuse, pedantic, useless questions. In almost 15 years on this forum. I doubt that Tex has ever really answered any question. 

If anyone, even a fellow Liberal states anything that is not in the Corporate DNC talking points, just claim that they are crazy, nutz, incoherent because GOD FORBID anyone in the Sewing Circle or Corporate Democrat World have an original thought or actually grow in depth on any subject. 

Rinse and Repeat ad nauseum...You guys kill me.

 

The Democrats in America since 2008 have lost the Senate, the HOR, The WH,  900+ Seats in the State Legislatures. Since Trump they have lost 5 more elections. The Democrat Party is never been this low and is lead by a nutcase old woman that thinks Bush43 is still President. Some of us are alarmed that the Democrat Party has fallen to such a state that with $1.2BN we can still lose an election to a Orange Orangutan Reality TV Star. Some of us have figured out that doing things the same way, IE LOSING, is not getting us anywhere and are trying other options: Justice Democrats.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

9 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

This is the most fascinating observation today. Legal Defnitions of Collusion, etc 

"It all depends on what your definition of the word 'collusion' is..."

KARMA...

Hey, I'm just using the standard that gets applied each and every time a Democrat or Clinton faces legal trouble. If it's ok for them to use that standard, then it's the standard that should be used for the GOP and Trump too. 

Now that there's an investigation of people in the Trump campaign, not Trump himself(at least not officially stated), Democrats want Trump charged with collusion and then impeached. It's hilarious to see Democrats applying different standards when it's a different party involved. They want common man standards where the lowest possible bar of guilt is set for every Republican and Trump; but Hilary, Bill, and every other Democrat get the legal definition standard which has to meet each and every criteria listed under the law in order for them to be guilty. And even then, if there's no "intent" to go along with the evidence, everything else gets voided and no charges are recommended. 

 

[homersapien 11,367]

1 hour ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Hey, I'm just using the standard that gets applied each and every time a Democrat or Clinton faces legal trouble. If it's ok for them to use that standard, then it's the standard that should be used for the GOP and Trump too. 

Now that there's an investigation of people in the Trump campaign, not Trump himself(at least not officially stated), Democrats want Trump charged with collusion and then impeached. It's hilarious to see Democrats applying different standards when it's a different party involved. They want common man standards where the lowest possible bar of guilt is set for every Republican and Trump; but Hilary, Bill, and every other Democrat get the legal definition standard which has to meet each and every criteria listed under the law in order for them to be guilty. And even then, if there's no "intent" to go along with the evidence, everything else gets voided and no charges are recommended. 

 

Unless you want to specify specific arguments being made by anyone on this forum - or even by someone else in the media - that's a straw man argument.

It's tiresome - the non-intellectual equivalent of watching someone masturbate.

And the Democrats can't demand impeachment all they want, they can't do it. It will be the Republicans who must decide to remove him from office, and I think it will happen.

[homersapien 11,367]

5 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Here, I will explain The Sewing Circle Rules of the Forum so even you two can understand it:

Whatever we talk about on this forum, if the conversation doesnt go your way:  JUST BLAME THE RUSSIANS. Even when there is zero evidence, zero credibility, or even scads of other sane options explaining whats going on, ALWAYS BLAME THE RUSSIANS. That is sssooo much better than having a grown up conversation.

If you are ever asked any question, EVER, always answer by asking never-ending inane, obtuse, pedantic, useless questions. In almost 15 years on this forum. I doubt that Tex has ever really answered any question. 

If anyone, even a fellow Liberal states anything that is not in the Corporate DNC talking points, just claim that they are crazy, nutz, incoherent because GOD FORBID anyone in the Sewing Circle or Corporate Democrat World have an original thought or actually grow in depth on any subject. 

Rinse and Repeat ad nauseum...You guys kill me.

 

The Democrats in America since 2008 have lost the Senate, the HOR, The WH,  900+ Seats in the State Legislatures. Since Trump they have lost 5 more elections. The Democrat Party is never been this low and is lead by a nutcase old woman that thinks Bush43 is still President. Some of us are alarmed that the Democrat Party has fallen to such a state that with $1.2BN we can still lose an election to a Orange Orangutan Reality TV Star. Some of us have figured out that doing things the same way, IE LOSING, is not getting us anywhere and are trying other options: Justice Democrats.

That's an incoherent argument.  In fact, it sounds a little derranged.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Unless you want to specify specific arguments being made by anyone on this forum - or even by someone else in the media - that's a straw man argument.

I guess I should have said layman and not common man, maybe then it would pass your "straw man"  test.

So do you think Trump is guilty of collusion by layman standards?

[homersapien 11,367]

12 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

I guess I should have said layman and not common man, maybe then it would pass your "straw man"  test.

So do you think Trump is guilty of collusion by layman standards?

At an absolute minimum, I think Trump Jr. is, as well as Trump's campaign manager at the time, as well as his son-in-law.   Presumably, that translates to the "Trump campaign".

As for Trump himself, he claims he didn't know anything about it. 

[DKW 86 7,419]

1 hour ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Hey, I'm just using the standard that gets applied each and every time a Democrat or Clinton faces legal trouble. If it's ok for them to use that standard, then it's the standard that should be used for the GOP and Trump too. 

Now that there's an investigation of people in the Trump campaign, not Trump himself(at least not officially stated), Democrats want Trump charged with collusion and then impeached. It's hilarious to see Democrats applying different standards when it's a different party involved. They want common man standards where the lowest possible bar of guilt is set for every Republican and Trump; but Hilary, Bill, and every other Democrat get the legal definition standard which has to meet each and every criteria listed under the law in order for them to be guilty. And even then, if there's no "intent" to go along with the evidence, everything else gets voided and no charges are recommended. 

 

Thank you, BUT...I am a Justice Democrat myself. I hold everybody to the same standard. Now, I know its just me around here, but its at least a start.

[DKW 86 7,419]

49 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Unless you want to specify specific arguments being made by anyone on this forum - or even by someone else in the media - that's a straw man argument.

It's tiresome - the non-intellectual equivalent of watching someone masturbate.

And the Democrats can't demand impeachment all they want, they can't do it. It will be the Republicans who must decide to remove him from office, and I think it will happen.

Archived.

[DKW 86 7,419]

18 minutes ago, homersapien said:

(So do you think Trump is guilty of collusion by layman standards?)

At an absolute minimum, I think Trump Jr. is, as well as Trump's campaign manager at the time, as well as his son-in-law.   Presumably, that translates to the "Trump campaign".

As for Trump himself, he claims he didn't know anything about it. 

de·lu·sion          dəˈlo͞oZHən/ noun 

1. an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder. "the delusion of being watched"

   misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief;    the action of deluding someone or the state of being deluded "what a capacity television has for delusion"

   synonyms:

   misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief;

[homersapien 11,367]

8 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Thank you, BUT...I am a Justice Democrat myself. I hold everybody to the same standard. Now, I know its just me around here, but its at least a start.

[homersapien 11,367]

Just now, DKW 86 said:

de·lu·sion          dəˈlo͞oZHən/ noun

1. an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder. "the delusion of being watched"

   misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief;    the action of deluding someone or the state of being deluded "what a capacity television has for delusion"

   synonyms:

   misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief;

You don't think what Trump Jr. openly admitted isn't collusion?

Paraphrase:

Russians: We have info for you.

Trump Jr.: Great! Even better if we can set the optimal timing.

 

So, What's your rationale for saying that's not collusion?  (Please try to be brief.)

[DKW 86 7,419]

12 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You don't think what Trump Jr. openly admitted isn't collusion?

Paraphrase:

Russians: We have info for you.

Trump Jr.: Great! Even better if we can set the optimal timing.

So, What's your rationale for saying that's not collusion?  (Please try to be brief.)

Like the professor said, if there wasnt something tangible traded there is no crime. Look, digging up dirt on your political opponent is just fine. They all do it. It happens 24/7/365. But what Veselnitskaya offered amounted to nothing.What she offered was never used in by the Trump Campaign. As the witness there said, "They just wanted to leave." The agent even stated that he wasnt even sure the campaign even took the file. 

Columbia Law Professor Richard Briffault Explains To MSNBC Why Donald Trump Jr. Can Not Be Guilty Of "Treason," "Perjury," Or "Collusion"

[homersapien 11,367]

7 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Like the professor said, if there wasnt something tangible traded there is no crime. Look, digging up dirt on your political opponent is just fine. They all do it. It happens 24/7/365. But what Veselnitskaya offered amounted to nothing.What she offered was never used in by the Trump Campaign. As the witness there said, "They just wanted to leave." The agent even stated that he wasnt even sure the campaign even took the file. 

Columbia Law Professor Richard Briffault Explains To MSNBC Why Donald Trump Jr. Can Not Be Guilty Of "Treason," "Perjury," Or "Collusion"

So you are arguing some sort of narrow legal definition of collusion as the defining standard.

I addressed that earlier.  You saw it.  

You are deliberately ignoring my point.  The legal definition of words do not supercede their common sense, practical definition. Why are you refusing to make that distinction?  Are you really insisting if some technical, legal defintion of collusion isn't met, it didn't happen?

Of course, "collusion" has no legal definition to begin with.  

No offense, but you don't have a logical argument from either a legal or  a moral standpoint.  All you seem to have is enthusiasm, which is entertaining but not persuasive.

 

[homersapien 11,367]

And your obsessive defensiveness of the behalf of Trump regarding this is fascinating.  

[DKW 86 7,419]

Where did you get that I am defending Trump? OMG! I would love nothing more than to see the clown gone. It isnt going to happen though with what we know now. As I have said a dozen times now, i think we as Liberals are wasting our time with this.

MURICA couldnt care less. They are too busy feeding their kids and covering the rent.
Justice Democrats is saying this.
The Democrat Congressmen are going home and finding out NO ONE CARES. They have asked the party to not talk about this anymore and Perez is listening to them.

Collusion isnt a crime.  It is part of a crime. It is like Conspiracy. There is no crime called "Conspiracy." And almost anything can be called "Conspiracy." Same with Collusion. Collusion means that that there would have to be a group of people that are acting to deprive the US of a fair election.

If Russia & Trump is Collusion, wouldnt Ukraine & Clinton be Collusion too?
If Russia & Trump is Collusion, then what is the Steele Dossier? Didnt Steele supposedly get PissGate from the Russians as well?
Veselnitskaya and Steele both have ties to the smear meisters @ Fusion GPS, a Democrat friendly Political Dirt Mining organization. 

To prove collusion, does that mean votes were changed or fraudulent votes were cast? They werent. Exposing some dunderhead's emails that damage your campaign is a bitch, but the worst thing you can say is that someone got into the email server. How did they get into it? PW reset like Podesta? Angry DNC Staffer? RUSSIANS hacking? Wikileaks has said they got the info from a staffer. They offer evidence to support it. So far, no one in law enforcement has seen the server, not the NSA, FBI, etc. 

In short I would love to get people to move on and quit having this masturbatory fantasy that Trump is going away. Now, the WH is incredibly damaged by all this. DTjr has said some crazy bad stuff. He lied to the Feds for his clearance etc. But that still doesnt get to Trump, a whole other person, impeached. You cant impeach Trump on anything we can prove yet. It could be there somewhere, but it isnt there now. 

Greenwald: Donald Trump Jr.'s Emails Are Not A "Smoking Gun" Of Anything; Democrats Keep "Moving Goal Posts" For Allegations

 

[DKW 86 7,419]

Question: What exactly was offered to DTjr at that meeting?

Some sort of weak evidence that the Clintons were essentially doing some real shady money transactions. 

No one at the meeting has said anything about emails...

[TexasTiger 12,835]

7 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Question: What exactly was offered to DTjr at that meeting?

Some sort of weak evidence that the Clintons were essentially doing some real shady money transactions. 

No one at the meeting has said anything about emails...

You place a lot of confidence in known liars. Amazing how you bend over backwards to defend and deflect from Trump. Sit back, relax, watch baseball, then football and let Mueller do his job. I don't understand how all you Trump defenders think if we don't know what is being found in an investigation it must not exist. We'll see. I don't know what will ultimately be found, but Trump and company sure have lied a lot about it. That we do know.

[homersapien 11,367]

13 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Hey, I'm just using the standard that gets applied each and every time a Democrat or Clinton faces legal trouble. If it's ok for them to use that standard, then it's the standard that should be used for the GOP and Trump too. 

Now that there's an investigation of people in the Trump campaign, not Trump himself(at least not officially stated), Democrats want Trump charged with collusion and then impeached. It's hilarious to see Democrats applying different standards when it's a different party involved. They want common man standards where the lowest possible bar of guilt is set for every Republican and Trump; but Hilary, Bill, and every other Democrat get the legal definition standard which has to meet each and every criteria listed under the law in order for them to be guilty. And even then, if there's no "intent" to go along with the evidence, everything else gets voided and no charges are recommended. 

 

BS.  

Show us an example.   

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

12 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You place a lot of confidence in known liars. Amazing how you bend over backwards to defend and deflect from Trump. Sit back, relax, watch baseball, then football and let Mueller do his job. I don't understand how all you Trump defenders think if we don't know what is being found in an investigation it must not exist. We'll see. I don't know what will ultimately be found, but Trump and company sure have lied a lot about it. That we do know.

I'm not a Trump defender and I would love to watch something else besides this soap opera.  However, the media trots out opinions on a daily basis to keep the masses so involved in this situation that it's hard to avoid the hype.  I would hope that the media would treat this like an aircraft accident and nothing would be said until the investigation is completed.  Alas, this type of "journalism" doesn't sell papers or garner clicks.

Of course, during an aircraft accident investigation, the facts are held close to the vest.  There are no leaks to the media.

[TexasTiger 12,835]

14 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I'm not a Trump defender and I would love to watch something else besides this soap opera.  However, the media trots out opinions on a daily basis to keep the masses so involved in this situation that it's hard to avoid the hype.  I would hope that the media would treat this like an aircraft accident and nothing would be said until the investigation is completed.  Alas, this type of "journalism" doesn't sell papers or garner clicks.

Of course, during an aircraft accident investigation, the facts are held close to the vest.  There are no leaks to the media.

Most of the leaks aren't coming from the investigation. Trump and company are media obsessed and seek it. He's a media  creation-- that's how he got to be President.

http://www.gq.com/story/donald-trump-jr-white-house-backstab

But the relationship with Russia is relevant and ongoing which raises the issue. Trump gives Russia unprecedented favorable treatment- why?

[homersapien 11,367]

7 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Where did you get that I am defending Trump? OMG! I would love nothing more than to see the clown gone. It isnt going to happen though with what we know now. As I have said a dozen times now, i think we as Liberals are wasting our time with this.

MURICA couldnt care less. They are too busy feeding their kids and covering the rent.
Justice Democrats is saying this.
The Democrat Congressmen are going home and finding out NO ONE CARES. They have asked the party to not talk about this anymore and Perez is listening to them.

Collusion isnt a crime.  It is part of a crime. It is like Conspiracy. There is no crime called "Conspiracy." And almost anything can be called "Conspiracy." Same with Collusion. Collusion means that that there would have to be a group of people that are acting to deprive the US of a fair election.

If Russia & Trump is Collusion, wouldnt Ukraine & Clinton be Collusion too?
If Russia & Trump is Collusion, then what is the Steele Dossier? Didnt Steele supposedly get PissGate from the Russians as well?
Veselnitskaya and Steele both have ties to the smear meisters @ Fusion GPS, a Democrat friendly Political Dirt Mining organization. 

To prove collusion, does that mean votes were changed or fraudulent votes were cast? They werent. Exposing some dunderhead's emails that damage your campaign is a bitch, but the worst thing you can say is that someone got into the email server. How did they get into it? PW reset like Podesta? Angry DNC Staffer? RUSSIANS hacking? Wikileaks has said they got the info from a staffer. They offer evidence to support it. So far, no one in law enforcement has seen the server, not the NSA, FBI, etc. 

In short I would love to get people to move on and quit having this masturbatory fantasy that Trump is going away. Now, the WH is incredibly damaged by all this. DTjr has said some crazy bad stuff. He lied to the Feds for his clearance etc. But that still doesnt get to Trump, a whole other person, impeached. You cant impeach Trump on anything we can prove yet. It could be there somewhere, but it isnt there now. 

Greenwald: Donald Trump Jr.'s Emails Are Not A "Smoking Gun" Of Anything; Democrats Keep "Moving Goal Posts" For Allegations

 

"masturbatory fantasy that Trump is going away"?

That's ironic, considering you are the one with a bug up their butt regarding this.

First, there were no meetings at all.  

Then there were meetings, but the election wasn't discussed.

Then Comey was fired due to the Russian investigation.  

Now there is proof of meetings in which campaign information was offered and timing was discussed.

And you act like the legal standard for a crime is the only thing that is relevant?  

I don't want Trump to go away, at least for a while.  I want the country to experience a "full Trump administration".  Assuming a second term is no longer in play, the longer he stays for the first term, the better.  I am hoping for a huge reaction.  Trump departing prematurely would attenuate it. 

 

[homersapien 11,367]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

Most of the leaks aren't coming from the investigation. Trump and company are media obsessed and seek it. He's a media  creation-- that's how he got to be President.

Live by the media, die by the media.

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

5 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Most of the leaks aren't coming from the investigation. Trump and company are media obsessed and seek it. He's a media  creation-- that's how he got to be President.

I don't think the leaks are from the investigation either, it's just the people investigating this does not have as much control over the information as the NTSB does.  I really don't think Trump and company leaked the Trump Jr email, do you?  I do believe the Trump media machine is fighting back aggressively with their own brand of the "truth".

I'll be glad when this Russian thing is over and the media finds something else to resist over.