A Few of my 'takeaways" from Charlottesville

[homersapien 11,357]

(In no particular order.)

1.  The long-lived debate over Confederate symbols as representing a noble 'lost cause' that is only vaguely related to slavery – is over.  The realization these symbols represent a cause to promote and preserve slavery – abject racism – has finally become widespread among Southerners.

It wasn't Charlottesville that established that fact, it's been the passage of time and the continuing revelation of more modern histories on the subject, as well as documentaries and movies in public culture.

Charlottesville – as a totally public spectacle – merely adds yet another punctuation point. Thanks to the alt right at least for helping with that!

 

2. Trump is a narcissistic psychopath who is incidentally, really, really ignorant about history and government.

The clip from from John Oliver says it more effectively - and humorously - than I can:

Charlottesville was a perfect opportunity for Trump to cut that association all together but he refused to do it.  Because he is who he is.

I shudder to think how Trump might respond to an honest-to-God crisis. Republicans owe it to the country to remove this guy from office asap.

 

3. The antifa – or at least the violent wing of antifa – are really, really, really stupid and counter productive.

The violence they promote may provide them personal emotional gratification, but it's TOTALLY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE in terms of promoting their cause, anti fascism. 

First, it provides the fascists with exactly what they want – newsworthy attention. From a publicity standpoint, conflict sells.

We could have been listening to their speeches – an opportunity for the whole nation to get a good look at these people. Hear what they stand for. Instead, we images of the alt right having to physically defend themselves from armed attackers from the “left”.

Yes, as it turned out, a member of the other side committed murder, but what if instead, one of the fascists being attacked had been killed or even died of a heart attack.  How would that have changed the political dynamic?

Aggressive violence is a dumb, dumb tactic. In fact, the machaevellian-inclined might suspect you are really working for the other side.

The calculated approach to protesting the alt right/white supremacists/Nazis/(what have you) is the “Ghandi approach” utilized so effectively by Dr. Martin Luther King in civil rights protests.

You either hold the moral right or not. If you do, the object is to persuade everyone else. Fomenting violence is counter-productive to that goal. It puts you in the exact same roll as the whites who delivered violence upon black people. Think about that.

Speaking for “the left” (as I see it) we don't need you. We don't want you. Go join the fascists where you seem to be a better fit.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

(In no particular order.)

1.  The long-lived debate over Confederate symbols as representing a noble 'lost cause' that are only vaguely related to slavery – is over. The realization these symbols represent a cause to promote and preserve slavery – abject racism – has finally become widespread by Southerners.

It wasn't Charlottesville that established that fact, it's been the passage of time and the continuing revelation of more modern histories on the subject, as well as documentaries and movies in public culture.

Charlottesville – as a totally public spectacle – merely adds yet another punctuation point. Thanks to the alt right at least for helping with that!

 

2. Trump is a narcissistic psychopath who is incidentally, really, really ignorant about history and government.

The clip from from John Oliver (tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXszx68uhsY) says it better - and more humorously - than I can.

Charlottesville was a perfect opportunity for Trump to cut that association all together but he refused to do it.  Because he is who he is.

I shudder to think how Trump might respond to an honest-to-God crisis. Republicans owe it to the country to remove this guy from office asap.

 

3. The antifa – or at least the violent wing of antifa – are really, really, really stupid and counterproducive.

The violence they promote may provide them personal emotional gratification, but it's TOTALLY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE in terms of promoting their cause, anti fascism. 

First, it provides the fascists with exactly what they want – newsworthy attention. From a publicity standpoint, conflict sells.

We could have been listening to their speeches – an opportunity for the whole nation to get a good look at these people. Hear what they stand for. Instead, we images of the alt right having to physically defend themselves from armed attackers from the “left”.

What a dumb, dumb trade-off in options. In fact, the machaevellian-inclined might suspect you are really working for the other side.

The calculated approach to protesting the alt right/white supremacists/Nazis/(what have you) is the “Ghandi approach” utilized so effectively by Dr. Martin Luther King in civil rights protest.

You either hold the moral right or not. If you do, the object is to persuade everyone else. Fomenting violence is counter-productive to that goal. It puts you in the exact same roll as the whites who delivered violence upon black people. Think about that.

Speaking for “the left” (as I see it) we don't need you. We don't want you. Go join the fascists where you seem to be a better fit.

That's a fair assessment.  

[Strychnine 1,802]

24 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

That's a fair assessment.  

 

I second that.

[AUbritt 611]

Cornel West would disagree about having the antifa around. He credits them with saving his and others' lives.

Aside from that, I actually see some force in the argument that you need to do something, not just say something. There's a bottom line where activism requires actions. Again, I am not advocating violence. I am just sympathetic to the idea that sometimes you need to take a stand.

[homersapien 11,357]

5 hours ago, AUbritt said:

Cornel West would disagree about having the antifa around. He credits them with saving his and others' lives.

Aside from that, I actually see some force in the argument that you need to do something, not just say something. There's a bottom line where activism requires actions. Again, I am not advocating violence. I am just sympathetic to the idea that sometimes you need to take a stand.

I didn't mean to condemn antifa categorically.  I don't know enough about them as an organization  to do that.

I was specifically referring to the people who wielded weapons with the intent of using them offensively.

I would certainly applaud whoever "saved" Cornell West's life, if it happened.

The "stand" that should have been taken is a display of opposition in the form of counter-marches or displays. 

[maxwere 82]

You familiar with the school sucks project? http://schoolsucksproject.com/

The speed and politics series (#1 & #2) is particularly brilliant: http://schoolsucksproject.com/category/podcast/speed-and-politics/

[AUFAN78 3,892]

8 hours ago, homersapien said:

(In no particular order.)

1.  The long-lived debate over Confederate symbols as representing a noble 'lost cause' that is only vaguely related to slavery – is over.  The realization these symbols represent a cause to promote and preserve slavery – abject racism – has finally become widespread among Southerners.

It wasn't Charlottesville that established that fact, it's been the passage of time and the continuing revelation of more modern histories on the subject, as well as documentaries and movies in public culture.

Charlottesville – as a totally public spectacle – merely adds yet another punctuation point. Thanks to the alt right at least for helping with that!

 

2. Trump is a narcissistic psychopath who is incidentally, really, really ignorant about history and government.

The clip from from John Oliver (tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXszx68uhsY) says it better - and more humorously - than I can.

Charlottesville was a perfect opportunity for Trump to cut that association all together but he refused to do it.  Because he is who he is.

I shudder to think how Trump might respond to an honest-to-God crisis. Republicans owe it to the country to remove this guy from office asap.

 

3. The antifa – or at least the violent wing of antifa – are really, really, really stupid and counterproducive.

The violence they promote may provide them personal emotional gratification, but it's TOTALLY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE in terms of promoting their cause, anti fascism. 

First, it provides the fascists with exactly what they want – newsworthy attention. From a publicity standpoint, conflict sells.

We could have been listening to their speeches – an opportunity for the whole nation to get a good look at these people. Hear what they stand for. Instead, we images of the alt right having to physically defend themselves from armed attackers from the “left”.

Yes, as it turned out a member of the otherside commited murder, but what if, instead, one of the fascists being attacked had been killed or even died of a heart attack.  How would that have changed the political dynamic?

Aggressive violence is a dumb, dumb tactic. In fact, the machaevellian-inclined might suspect you are really working for the other side.

The calculated approach to protesting the alt right/white supremacists/Nazis/(what have you) is the “Ghandi approach” utilized so effectively by Dr. Martin Luther King in civil rights protests.

You either hold the moral right or not. If you do, the object is to persuade everyone else. Fomenting violence is counter-productive to that goal. It puts you in the exact same roll as the whites who delivered violence upon black people. Think about that.

Speaking for “the left” (as I see it) we don't need you. We don't want you. Go join the fascists where you seem to be a better fit.

That's pretty good there Homes. One of your best.  Props.

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

Homer, Antifa is probably the biggest reason that I and several others are still alive.  And they only used mace & pepper spray.

Having Oath Keepers in your face, supporting the Alt-Right and the Nazi's & KKK, bearing semi and automatic weapons...I did piss myself

Thankful for Antifa

[DKW 86 7,418]

Homer, we are so close on so many things...

Great post. Kudos.

The realization with the antifa crowd that they are really being really counterproductive MAY, MAY be coming to a head.
I and the rest of America arent going to listen to anyone that supports violence. 

[homersapien 11,357]

12 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

Homer, Antifa is probably the biggest reason that I and several others are still alive.  And they only used mace & pepper spray.

Having Oath Keepers in your face, supporting the Alt-Right and the Nazi's & KKK, bearing semi and automatic weapons...I did piss myself

Thankful for Antifa

I don't mean to include everyone who associates with antifa.  I don't assume that the sole purpose of eveyone who associates with them is physical violence.  I am referring to those who do.

And just to be clear, I totally emphasize with their emotional response.  In fact, I don't have a moral adversion to their use of violence.  I've been in a few fights myself in my younger days.

It am just taking a practical, reasoned position regarding the results, which is easier to do when your in your 60's as opposed to your 20's..  

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

I understand Homer.  Their tactics are not my tactics, but they did not carry "weapons" as did at the Right Wing Para-Military, Nazis, Alt-Right, and KKK.  But, they stood up to them.

They have gotten a bad, unjust, and untrue rap.

[homersapien 11,357]

1 hour ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

I understand Homer.  Their tactics are not my tactics, but they did not carry "weapons" as did at the Right Wing Para-Military, Nazis, Alt-Right, and KKK.  But, they stood up to them.

They have gotten a bad, unjust, and untrue rap.

That's probably true.

[AUFAN78 3,892]

3 hours ago, homersapien said:

That's probably true.

Actually it isn't true. Antifa brought plenty of weapons and have done so historically. Plenty of video and articles to validate the claim if you are really interested in truth. 

http://www.unionleader.com/column/Deroy-Murdock-Both-sides-were-to-blame-for-Charlottesville-violence-08182017

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

Well, those Antifa around me did not carry weapons.  When we  were bull rushed, they stepped in.  And you need to know, the people I was with were clergy, in their vestments.

I now get what Steven Pressfield describes in his book "Gates of Fire."  Watching a shield wall with an overwhelming amount of human force coming at you tests you.  Especially when you are there not offering violence in return. 

And what was more rattling were the guys proclaiming "God Bless the USA" and "we are a Christian nation" that were charging clergy with shields, brass knuckles, baseball bats, throwing full bottles of water, and carrying pretty heavy weaponry...makes one think.

 

[FormerlySec38Row34 56]

On 8/19/2017 at 3:41 PM, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

I understand Homer.  Their tactics are not my tactics, but they did not carry "weapons" as did at the Right Wing Para-Military, Nazis, Alt-Right, and KKK.  But, they stood up to them.

They have gotten a bad, unjust, and untrue rap.

Sorry dude, but that's BS. They were carrying sticks, clubs and Coke cans filled with concrete. They also carry balloons full of urine. They go to these places looking for a fight. The so-called ALt-Right weren't carrying guns of any sort. That's illegal at any kind of political rally/demonstration. Antifa stands for removing free speech in this country , using the same tactics as those they claim to be fighting, namely fascists. They use the same tactics as Hitler's Brown-shirts in the thirties. The particular group that Mid-Atlantic Tiger was with may have been an exception, but anyone who goes to a rally wearing masks, hoods (which is illegal), and helmets is not there to be kind and peaceful. They call themselves anarchists, and not patriots. Their aim is to shut down any speech that they disagree with, by any means necessary. Everyone knows who and what the KKK and Neo-nazis are, and what they represent, but according to the organizer of the rally in Charlotte, they were uninvited intruders, and not part of the original group. Only one of the groups actually got permits to march, and it wasn't Antifa.

[AUDub 11,136]

30 minutes ago, FormerlySec38Row34 said:

Sorry dude, but that's BS. They were carrying sticks, clubs and Coke cans filled with concrete. They also carry balloons full of urine. They go to these places looking for a fight. The so-called ALt-Right weren't carrying guns of any sort. That's illegal at any kind of political rally/demonstration. 

The portion I bolded is an outright falsehood. A lot of them were packing. Don't believe me? Google it. There are a metric **** ton of pictures of alt-right demonstrators carrying.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537087/&ved=0ahUKEwjihoqbo-vVAhWqx4MKHdZJDQcQqUMIlAIwGw&usg=AFQjCNHEqn3ioU76sEUnGUE1FeR7lRrKcQ&ampcf=1

30 minutes ago, FormerlySec38Row34 said:

Antifastands for removing free speech in this country , using the same tactics as those they claim to be fighting, namely fascists. They use the same tactics as Hitler's Brown-shirts in the thirties. The particular group that Mid-Atlantic Tiger was with may have been an exception, but anyone who goes to a rally wearing masks, hoods (which is illegal), and helmets is not there to be kind and peaceful. They call themselves anarchists, and not patriots. Their aim is to shut down any speech that they disagree with, by any means necessary. Everyone knows who and what the KKK and Neo-nazis are, and what they represent, but according to the organizer of the rally in Charlotte, they were uninvited intruders, and not part of the original group. Only one of the groups actually got permits to march, and it wasn't Antifa.

Another falsehood. The counter protesters were permitted.

http://www.snopes.com/counter-demonstrators-permits-charlottesville/

[FormerlySec38Row34 56]

I read the Atlantic article. Nowhere does it mention that there were any guns being displayed in Charlotte. It mentioned Dallas and Arizona back some months ago, but not Charlotte. If you have any pictures, please post. The counter-protest group that had permits, was not Antifa. They don't believe in permits. they're anarchists. They, like the KKK and Neo-nazis, showed up uninvited.

[aujeff11 6,243]

4 minutes ago, FormerlySec38Row34 said:

I read the Atlantic article. Nowhere does it mention that there were any guns being displayed in Charlotte. It mentioned Dallas and Arizona back some months ago, but not Charlotte. If you have any pictures, please post. The counter-protest group that had permits, was not Antifa. They don't believe in permits. they're anarchists. They, like the KKK and Neo-nazis, showed up uninvited.

There is a picture somewhere of the Alt right  toting around guns. 

 

I seent it.

[FormerlySec38Row34 56]

9 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

There is a picture somewhere of the Alt right  toting around guns. 

 

I seent it.

In Charlotte? I can show dozens of pictures of people with guns at public places.

[aujeff11 6,243]

3 minutes ago, FormerlySec38Row34 said:

In Charlotte?

Yes. It was like a militia.

[AUDub 11,136]

17 minutes ago, FormerlySec38Row34 said:

I read the Atlantic article. Nowhere does it mention that there were any guns being displayed in Charlotte. It mentioned Dallas and Arizona back some months ago, but not Charlotte. If you have any pictures, please post.

Fine. I'll do the leg work.

The image above the lede is of a demonstrator carrying a rifle.

 

Quote

The counter-protest group that had permits, was not Antifa. They don't believe in permits. they're anarchists. They, like the KKK and Neo-nazis, showed up uninvited.

You said "Only one of the groups actually got permits to march...."

Probably the funniest little falsehood in that last post was this one:

1 hour ago, FormerlySec38Row34 said:

they were uninvited intruders, and not part of the original group.

Uninvited LOL. They courted these people.

Recognize any of those names? Hell, Kessler was the one that got the permit!

This was a neo-nazi, white power rally from the get go. Make no mistake about it.

[FormerlySec38Row34 56]

1 minute ago, aujeff11 said:

Yes. It was like a militia.

Post it, please. I have seen a lot of video, but no firearms. I don't think Va. is an open-carry state, so if there were, police should have acted immediately. I own guns, but I would never take one into a politically volatile rally.

[aujeff11 6,243]

42 minutes ago, FormerlySec38Row34 said:

Post it, please. I have seen a lot of video, but no firearms. I don't think Va. is an open-carry state, so if there were, police should have acted immediately. I own guns, but I would never take one into a politically volatile rally.

Ben provided a lot more than I would care to provide.

[alexava 6,973]

50 minutes ago, FormerlySec38Row34 said:

Post it, please. I have seen a lot of video, but no firearms. I don't think Va. is an open-carry state, so if there were, police should have acted immediately. I own guns, but I would never take one into a politically volatile rally.

I would never attend a volatile rally. 

[FormerlySec38Row34 56]

Just now, alexava said:

I would never attend a volatile rally. 

Then there's that. I have never even had a thought about going to one of those things. Too busy making a living to worry about a bunch of dunderheads.......on either side of the spectrum.