unfair to criticize Gus for not developing HS QBs

[gr82b4au 5,568]

I guess what I am saying is that It is a whole lot easier to develop a QB that already has the skills to pay the bills. And then you win. 

Captain obvious I know. 

[oracle79 3,569]

3 hours ago, gr82b4au said:

It seems unfair to criticize Gus for not developing HS QBs

To be fair, I didn't read any of this because I'm sick of the argument.  Just answer me one question.  Which QB has he taken directly from HS and developed into a top QB during his time as a college coach?  Mitch Mustain?  Sean White?  Seriously curious about the answer.

[CR 2,427]

I think it's fair to ask if Watson and Francois would be even remotely the QB's they have become if they were playing for Gus and Lashlee.
I think my guess would be no. People that know things in the AU program seem high on Lindsey. Hope they are correct.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

2 minutes ago, oracle79 said:

Which QB has he taken directly from HS and developed into a top QB during his time as a college coach?  Mitch Mustain?  Sean White?  Seriously curious about the answer.

I'll answer your questions with more questions. 1) Do you think Cam Newton, Nick Marshall, Chris Todd (or now Jarrett Stidham) received all of their "development" somewhere else and just coasted under Malzahn?  2) Does the problem lie more with "development", lack of talent recognition during scouting, or lack of talent acquisition?  Perhaps it's a combination of all. 

I believe the last couple of years Gus did a poor job of putting the QB's in positions to succeed with both play calling and game plans. I also think he swung and missed on a few QB's during the last several years.   Maybe it has a something to do with his offense not really evolving with the times, possibly due to getting complacent after Marshall's success with that half dozen plays we ran all year.  Who knows?

I'm hoping the influence of Lindsey and Borges can help him in all of these areas. 

[gr82b4au 5,568]

12 minutes ago, CR said:

I think it's fair to ask if Watson and Francois would be even remotely the QB's they have become if they were playing for Gus and Lashlee.
I think my guess would be no. People that know things in the AU program seem high on Lindsey. Hope they are correct.

How is that fair? Those guys were 5 star top rated Qbs. That is my point. The only time Gus has had a 5 star top rated QB he won it all. 

[gr82b4au 5,568]

17 minutes ago, oracle79 said:

To be fair, I didn't read any of this because I'm sick of the argument.  

Well you missed some good discussion and back and forth. 

[gr82b4au 5,568]

13 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

  2) Does the problem lie more with "development", lack of talent recognition during scouting, or lack of talent acquisition?  Perhaps it's a combination of all. 

I'm hoping the influence of Lindsey and Borges can help him in all of these areas. 

In my opinion it is Lack of talent acquisition. Deshaun Watson was our #1 QB we wanted. He chose Clemson. Then a program that hasn't won a title in decades wins one. Just like we won with Cam.

It really is all about getting a 5 star QB with talent unless you have more talent at all of the other positions like alabama and you win with Qbs that are not that great. 2013 was the anomaly. Au had an offensive scheme that nobody could stop. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

3 hours ago, corchjay said:

Gus isn't any different then any other coach that has a QB bust.  It's about a 50 percent rate for all coaches.  Saban Urban Petrino all of them.  The problem has been that Gus had a horrible defense for all except last year.  The UGA game is totally on Gus.  The Clemson game plan totally on Gus.  

Don't forget that he also under recruited the position until last year, making it so he had to win with his busts.

[gr82b4au 5,568]

6 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

Don't forget that he also under recruited the position until last year, making it so he had to win with his busts.

I think he has tried in recruiting top Qbs but has failed. That is our biggest problem and that is my point. And as much as I would like to say that we won the JS battle this last year he fell into our lap. But I will take it! 

If we got Fields everything would change. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 minute ago, gr82b4au said:

I think he has tried in recruiting top Qbs but has failed. That is our biggest problem and that is my point. And as much as I would like to say that we won the JS battle this last year he fell into our lap. But I will take it! 

If we got Fields everything would change. 

By underrecruited, I meant he didn't recruit enough QBs. It's a game of numbers. Even 5-stars bust, so you need another guy to go to.

[War Knight 514]

There's just too many factors. Frazier got "shook" as the kids say and never recovered. Jeremy only played well in back up roles with no pressure. Nick Marshall had a cannon for an arm but a floppy disk running the targeting computer. Cam was excellent. Todd was a miracle project. Sean White was boned by poor play calling, a non-adaptive offense, and deficiencies around him.

 

Sean should have been running a pro-style offense with short to medium high percentage passes with real route trees and utilizing check downs. Instead, Gus has acted like he doesn't know how to use a non Cam-Newton like qb. Can't run and throw far? Sorry, Gus is confused.

[DAG 33,955]

3 hours ago, McLoofus said:

-saban's QBs haven't been average. They've been very good. Almost all of them have gone to the NFL. Even if they were only there to hold a clipboard for a minute, that still puts them in elite company.

-Sorry that Gus has had to settle for 4*s that fell outside the top 10. Either way, Sean is his only high school QB to be even moderately successful, and that happened very much despite Gus trying to do everything he could to avoid putting Sean on the field.

We hired Chip Lindsey because Gus wasn't getting it done in the QB department. It's okay. Gus has been great in many ways. We don't have to pretend he's perfect.

1

McLoofus, why do you keep being soo sensible. You can't be average and get a shot at the NFL. I would never understand the audacity of people typing away, calling players average...1). because they played among other blue chip guys  2). Because they weren't successful at the next level. These are elite players in layman land. 

A good majority of Alabama QBs have been very efficient. Being very efficient is not predicated on the stars you have around you either. If this was the case, schools like UF and LSU would not be so piss poor on the offensive end.

[GwillMac6 20,607]

I just wanted to chime in and say Chris Todd is the most overrated Auburn QB in my 27 years on earth. MERCY! He got the chunk of his stats against garbage teams. I am not giving Gus credit for that one. He was bad flat out bad against sec competition. 16 of his 22 tds came against non SEC competition. That kentucky game is one of the worst offensive performances I have ever seen. We had no business at all losing that game..... Todd was 10 of 24 for 80 yards. Yikes.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

The point about Todd wasn't that he was a great QB, he wasn't. The point was that Gus got more out of Todd and that offense than most people thought was in there in the first place, especially with that surgically repaired shoulder which faded down the stretch. 

[AU64 10,122]

12 hours ago, Barnacle said:

I agree with all of this. But, I do hold Gus responsible for not having enough quality depth at the quarterback position last season. Certainly, you can't help things like injuries (see Tyler Queen) but we had absolutely no quality depth at the position. We knew coming into the season that Barrett would be a project and JJ had a myriad of issues, leaving us with Sean White and JFIII. In other words, it was Sean or nothing. And, to start the season, Gus wasn't even confident enough in Sean to hand him the keys, as evidenced by the Clemson debacle. 

I've never been in his position, so I don't want to criticize unfairly, but I don't know how you get to the place we were going into last season. From my standpoint as a fan, its unacceptable. Thankfully, the depth chart looks significantly more promising going into this season.

Basically true ...but by the time a coach figures out a guy is not going to make it, a couple years have gone by and not easy to recover that fumble. It is not generally expected that a QB will start as a freshman or even perhaps as a soph so coaches work to bring him along...and frankly some just never get better no matter how much coaching they get or where they get it.    The college world is full of QB "busts" as some folks call them.....and teams get caught short all over the place.  LSU for example should have been in a couple BCS playoffs....except they lacked a QB and at least one guy, maybe, two that AU fans lusted after, never got much better than the day he arrived on campus.....and USC, UGa, UF ......all were lacking at QB for more than just one year.

IMO Gus is no better than any other coach at developing QBs....and probably no worse.   Just based on his record....I'm thinking the Mullins at MSU might have the best record of bringing along relatively unknown QB prospects....otherwise, most SEC coaches don't have much of a track record in recent years....which is partly reflected in the turnover in coaches....can't win without the right QB no matter where you coach or what offense you run.  JMO

[auburn4ever 1,266]

Since being Auburn's head coach, Gus has always had HUGE problems in developing HS QB's and I don't see that ever changing.

[keesler 5,923]

14 hours ago, WarEagle1983 said:

Gus has had to rely on QB transfers to fix those shortcomings. I for one never thought of Gus as being a coach with exceptional ability to develop a QB b/c he never was anywhere long enough to show that he could do so. However, i did believe when we hired him he was highly capable of being a coach that could take either a Pro Style or DT QB and have the ability to create a dynamic offense around that QB. I thought he was very creative and innovative as an OC. 

I'm not sure why he's all of sudden had a brain fart as a HC. I still think he is capable of running a good offense that but for some reason, he can't get out of his own head. For the past 3 years of so i just can't understand why he has been so stubborn and refused to adjust his offense when needed.  Hopefully, he's gotten on the right track but it would've made feel a little better about him if he wasn't forced to do so b/c his job is on the line. 

My thoughts exactly!

The ability to adjust, evolve, change, and create a scheme that fits the players you recruited is paramount in the continued success of any sport. What Gus was able to do his first year at AU with Todd and then the way he tweaked the offense with Cam as the season progressed and the same with Nick Marshall made me believe that QB and play calling wouldn't ever been a serious issue as long as he was here.  I felt like he could put anybody back there and create a scheme that was productive and kept us competitive.

The last 3 yrs the whole offensive package including player selection, roster management, play calling, scheme, and the head scratching predictability of the offense has sent my former good opinions of Gus' offensive attributes to the toilet.

[I_M4_AU 7,762]

I think @johnnyAU hit the nail on the head.  However, I believe it goes even further.  I believe Gus is lazy when it comes to QB evaluation and recruiting as he believes he can take any "talent" and turn them into a serviceable QB.  This is why getting a new OC was so cruical for Gus to develop into a head coach and not a OC that happens to be a HC.

The background:

QB signees for 2009 (Gus' first year as OC)
Clint Moseley and Tyrik Rollison.  Clint was Alabama's Mr Football and Tyrik was a can't miss.  Too bad Tyrik had other issues a little more evaluation into things other then ability would have uncovered.  In 2011, Gus couldn't settle on a QB the whole season between Clint, Barrett Trotter and Kiehl Frazier.

QB signee for 2010
Cam Newton.  We all know how that went, but he wasn't even on Gus' radar until an Auburn coach, looking at another player, spotted Cam and advised Gus.  Why wasn't he on Gus' radar?

QB signee for 2011
Kiehl Frazier and Wirth Campbell (who?). Kiehl was from Ark and Gus knew him from Shilo Christian.  Lazy and my first "red flag" about evaluation of talent.

QB signees for 2013
Jeremy Johnson and NM.  JJ was already in the fold from CGC, so Gus' only responsibility he was to keep him in the fold.  Gus knew JJ was going to be the man after NM left.  QB evaluation?  Thank God for NM, his raw athletic ability and competitive spirit was something you only hope for in a QB.  That type of QB you just hope you don't screw up by coaching him up.

QB signee for 2014
SW.  I have alway thought the only reason Gus signed SW was because he won the elite 11 QB competition.  That coupled with Brandon Harris had just committed to LSU and I start to get the feeling that Gus thought he, along with CRL, can turn any QB into a great QB, after all it's not the talent, its the system.

QB signee for 2015
TQ.  He never got the chance to compete due to injuries.  Who knows.

QB signees for 2016
Woody Barrett and JFIII.  This one year did it for me with regard to evaluation and laziness.  Gus' jobs on the line and he gets two projects at the QB position.  Jared Evans was available, but no, according to our evaluation, JFIII was the man.  Another NM, except faster.

QB signees for 2017
JS and MW.  JS fell into our lap, so the trend is still and there was no need for evaluation on him.  These two QB signees, I hope, is the difference between the previous OC and Chip.  Only time will tell.  I'm optimistic at the moment.

 

[WarEagle1983 2,185]

12 hours ago, McLoofus said:

-saban's QBs haven't been average. They've been very good. Almost all of them have gone to the NFL. Even if they were only there to hold a clipboard for a minute, that still puts them in elite company.

-Sorry that Gus has had to settle for 4*s that fell outside the top 10. Either way, Sean is his only high school QB to be even moderately successful, and that happened very much despite Gus trying to do everything he could to avoid putting Sean on the field.

We hired Chip Lindsey because Gus wasn't getting it done in the QB department. It's okay. Gus has been great in many ways. We don't have to pretend he's perfect.

When I say average regarding Bama's QBs, my definition has less to do with if they're NFL caliber QBs and more to do with the fact they're not likely to go out and win you games by putting the team on their back in certain situations of the game if needed. Bama QBs are asked not to turn the ball over but they look to their defense and RBs to make key plays before they look to their QB. I think for what Bama needs their QBs have done a great job though. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

4 hours ago, AU64 said:

Basically true ...but by the time a coach figures out a guy is not going to make it, a couple years have gone by and not easy to recover that fumble. It is not generally expected that a QB will start as a freshman or even perhaps as a soph so coaches work to bring him along...and frankly some just never get better no matter how much coaching they get or where they get it.    The college world is full of QB "busts" as some folks call them.....and teams get caught short all over the place. 

I think we all agree that the college world is full of "busts", and it doesn't excuse how thin we were at QB last season. We were already woefully thin in 2015. The depth that we have going into this season meets the minimum. Ideally you've got a 4th quarterback on the roster competing for the 2nd and 3rd string spots. Luckily, we now have a formidable 3-deep at the position. Last season didn't even amount to a legitimate 2-deep. It amounted to Sean White, a back-up JUCO quarterback and Johnson - God bless him. 

[AU64 10,122]

4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

I think @johnnyAU hit the nail on the head.  However, I believe it goes even further.  I believe Gus is lazy when it comes to QB evaluation and recruiting as he believes he can take any "talent" and turn them into a serviceable QB.  This is why getting a new OC was so cruical for Gus to develop into a head coach and not a OC that happens to be a HC.

The background:

QB signees for 2009 (Gus' first year as OC)
Clint Moseley and Tyrik Rollison.  Clint was Alabama's Mr Football and Tyrik was a can't miss.  Too bad Tyrik had other issues a little more evaluation into things other then ability would have uncovered.  In 2011, Gus couldn't settle on a QB the whole season between Clint, Barrett Trotter and Kiehl Frazier.

QB signee for 2010
Cam Newton.  We all know how that went, but he wasn't even on Gus' radar until an Auburn coach, looking at another player, spotted Cam and advised Gus.  Why wasn't he on Gus' radar?

QB signee for 2011
Kiehl Frazier and Wirth Campbell (who?). Kiehl was from Ark and Gus knew him from Shilo Christian.  Lazy and my first "red flag" about evaluation of talent.

QB signees for 2013
Jeremy Johnson and NM.  JJ was already in the fold from CGC, so Gus' only responsibility he was to keep him in the fold.  Gus knew JJ was going to be the man after NM left.  QB evaluation?  Thank God for NM, his raw athletic ability and competitive spirit was something you only hope for in a QB.  That type of QB you just hope you don't screw up by coaching him up.

QB signee for 2014
SW.  I have alway thought the only reason Gus signed SW was because he won the elite 11 QB competition.  That coupled with Brandon Harris had just committed to LSU and I start to get the feeling that Gus thought he, along with CRL, can turn any QB into a great QB, after all it's not the talent, its the system.

QB signee for 2015
TQ.  He never got the chance to compete due to injuries.  Who knows.

QB signees for 2016
Woody Barrett and JFIII.  This one year did it for me with regard to evaluation and laziness.  Gus' jobs on the line and he gets two projects at the QB position.  Jared Evans was available, but no, according to our evaluation, JFIII was the man.  Another NM, except faster.

QB signees for 2017
JS and MW.  JS fell into our lap, so the trend is still and there was no need for evaluation on him.  These two QB signees, I hope, is the difference between the previous OC and Chip.  Only time will tell.  I'm optimistic at the moment.

 

Just a couple of observations....as for Cam...don't recall that he was on anyone's radar except maybe MSU  before AU got involved late..... and Jarod Evans was not "available" ...had already been reeled in by Fuentes before he even left Memphis.....was going there and then followed Fuentes to VaTech according to various pieces I've read about him. 

JMO but Nick was a pretty good find and turned out much better than many posters on this site predicted.....especially the ones who could just not get off of Nicks INT numbers at his Juco and were convinced he could not do the job. .

And Frazier?  let me quote:   ''He was named USA Today's National Offensive Player of the Year. During his senior season, Frazier passed for 2,975 yards and 42 touchdowns and rushed for 1,164 yards and 22 touchdowns. He was listed as the nation's No. 2 quarterback by ESPN.com/Scouts Inc. and the No. 47 player overall on the ESPNU 150. Frazier was named an All-American, the nation's No. 4 quarterback'

Tell me about your red flag    

Otherwise, it's pretty easy to make the same kind of analysis of any major college coach...list all their recruits and then the ones that did not play or transferred and were never heard from again..   BUT.....I understand it's more fun for some AU fans to rag on Gus.....but it does make me wonder how broadly those fans know the college game. JMO.

 

 

[auburnphan 6,050]

11 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Just a couple of observations....as for Cam...don't recall that he was on anyone's radar except maybe MSU  before AU got involved late..... and Jarod Evans was not "available" ...had already been reeled in by Fuentes before he even left Memphis.....was going there and then followed Fuentes to VaTech according to various pieces I've read about him. 

JMO but Nick was a pretty good find and turned out much better than many posters on this site predicted.....especially the ones who could just not get off of Nicks INT numbers at his Juco and were convinced he could not do the job. .

And Frazier?  let me quote:   ''He was named USA Today's National Offensive Player of the Year. During his senior season, Frazier passed for 2,975 yards and 42 touchdowns and rushed for 1,164 yards and 22 touchdowns. He was listed as the nation's No. 2 quarterback by ESPN.com/Scouts Inc. and the No. 47 player overall on the ESPNU 150. Frazier was named an All-American, the nation's No. 4 quarterback'

Tell me about your red flag    

Otherwise, it's pretty easy to make the same kind of analysis of any major college coach...list all their recruits and then the ones that did not play or transferred and were never heard from again..   BUT.....I understand it's more fun for some AU fans to rag on Gus.....but it does make me wonder how broadly those fans know the college game. JMO.

 

 

My opinion on Gus' qb recruiting was that he always seemed to put too much stock into one qb and continued to fight for that QB until the end.  Not putting in the time with other qbs in a class that is needed to build that relationship.  While I admire picking a top target and going all in on him, the effort on targets 2-7 need to be recruited as hard as number 1.  Because we are Auburn and in the SEC we still got quote 4 star qb's but not necessarily the best fits or ceilings.  

[I_M4_AU 7,762]

1 hour ago, AU64 said:

Just a couple of observations....as for Cam...don't recall that he was on anyone's radar except maybe MSU  before AU got involved late..... and Jarod Evans was not "available" ...had already been reeled in by Fuentes before he even left Memphis.....was going there and then followed Fuentes to VaTech according to various pieces I've read about him. 

JMO but Nick was a pretty good find and turned out much better than many posters on this site predicted.....especially the ones who could just not get off of Nicks INT numbers at his Juco and were convinced he could not do the job. .

And Frazier?  let me quote:   ''He was named USA Today's National Offensive Player of the Year. During his senior season, Frazier passed for 2,975 yards and 42 touchdowns and rushed for 1,164 yards and 22 touchdowns. He was listed as the nation's No. 2 quarterback by ESPN.com/Scouts Inc. and the No. 47 player overall on the ESPNU 150. Frazier was named an All-American, the nation's No. 4 quarterback'

Tell me about your red flag    

Otherwise, it's pretty easy to make the same kind of analysis of any major college coach...list all their recruits and then the ones that did not play or transferred and were never heard from again..   BUT.....I understand it's more fun for some AU fans to rag on Gus.....but it does make me wonder how broadly those fans know the college game. JMO.

 

 

The red flags don't show up the year they are recruited, its when they play.  It's all in the coaches evaluation, not the media's.  Seeing Frazier in the Arky game in 2011 was the first red flag.  Frazier came from Shiloh Christian, which is Gus' old school, and was familiar with his system. This should have been a slam dunk for Gus, like Dyer was the previous year.  Your quote above is what I was trying to point out. Gus bought into Frazier whole heartedly and knew he would be his next QB (star gazing).  Who else did he sign that year?  Wirth Campbell.  That's just being lazy in recruiting.  High school video numbers don't always relate well going into the SEC.  It's interesting that at the end of that year, as Gus was leaving the field after the bowl game, he was asked who the next QB would be at Auburn and he answered, unequivocally, Kiehl Frazier.  After a whole year with him, he still didn't know if Frazier was able to be a QB in the SEC.  Red flag #2.  I actually felt sorry for Lefty with the QB's he had to work with.

It's amazing the similarities between Frazier and JJ.  The only difference was JJ was brought on slower and was afforded a better transition.  This was red flag #3, after 2 years of development, JJ looked lost against Louisville.  He had 2 years to evaluate JJ.  I'll stop here, JFIII's playing time speaks for itself.

As for "ragging on Gus"; I have ragged on him for his "yes man" staff and his QB recruitment and development, but its not fun. It's down right frustrating to see a man being paid millions of dollars and making the same mistakes year after year.  As I have said in another thread, I'm excited to see the difference a new OC will make in this year's offense and QB recruitment in the future.

[AUwent 3,747]

22 hours ago, gr82b4au said:

It seems unfair to criticize Gus for not developing HS QBs

Hear me out.

I just looked at the top 10 HS QBs (overall) for every year back to 2010. During that time period we have had 1 (one) quarterback in the overall top ten rankings and that was in 2011 - Kiehl Frazier. He had a million offers and did not pan out. But the others - White, Jeremy Johnson, T Queen, Woody Barrett - outside the top 10. These guys were not the best of the QBs in their classes as far as rankings. As a matter of fact, in almost every case we REALLY wanted and were recruiting another QB but came in second or third - like with Deshaun Watson, Deondre Francois, or Shea Patterson. In most cases we ended up with QBs that were ok, still rated a 4 star (or 3 star in some cases), but not the ones we really we after. Uga, uat, Fsu, Oh St, Usc, Ucla... they are recruiting the top 10 QBs. And they are winning with them (most of the time anyway). 

My point - we seem to get our backup plan, but we need to get our first choice. Hopefully that will happen this year. 

OK - let me have it. 

His fault for not being able to recruit with them when these QBs were recruited when Gus was hot stuff. As previously mentioned, going after JF3 instead of Evans was idiotic beyond words. With Evans we for sure beat Georgia and likely Clemson. That said Malik Miller looks like he might actually be Gus's first HS success.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

15 minutes ago, AUwent said:

That said Malik Miller looks like he might actually be Gus's first HS success.

You of course mean Malik Willis....Malik "the Masher" Miller will be one of our star RB's this season....