Charlottesville: Race and Terror – VICE News

[AUDub 11,147]

This is excellent journalism. Props to them for throwing it together that quickly.

 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

I watched this last night.  It's not only excellent embedded journalism, it does a fantastic job of letting the event speak for itself.  If anyone can watch this and still say there were problems on both sides, then I'm not really sure what kind of morals said person holds.

Also not in this piece, new video of a black man being beaten with metal pipes and clubs by a group of white supremacists during the Charlottesville rally.

 

[aujeff11 6,243]

33 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

If anyone can watch this and still say there were problems on both sides,

Why couldn't I? The theme of their protests in Berkeley, Seattle, and Charlottesville have been disruption and violence. Are mob rule vigilantes your cup of tea?

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/TrumpSuperPAC/status/897722275474132992/video/1

What is this? 

And terrorizing their own pop in Seattle:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AndyHortin/status/897387693088231424/video/1

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

7 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Why couldn't I? The theme of their protests in Berkeley, Seattle, and Charlottesville have been disruption and violence. Are mob rule vigilantes your cup of tea?

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/TrumpSuperPAC/status/897722275474132992/video/1

 

1) Your tweet comes from a Trump Super Pac.  Let that sink in for a minute.

2) How many videos have you seen of counter-protesters beating white supremacists this weekend?  Killing them?  Everything you've been posting about is the Antifa, but it's quite clear from video that the woman who got run over was walking in a crowd along the street.  There was no violence happening at that point.  Same for the young black man that nearly beaten to death.  Neither of them identify with Antifa, by the way.

3) Essentially what I am saying though is that I question your morals at this point, because you are choosing to defend an argument of equivalency that just isn't there.

[aujeff11 6,243]

7 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

1) Your tweet comes from a Trump Super Pac.  Let that sink in for a minute.

The source makes the video of an antifa guy punching a white guy no less valid...

 

8 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

3) Essentially what I am saying though is that I question your morals at this point, because you are choosing to defend an argument of equivalency that just isn't there.

I equated terrorism with terrorism, violence with violence, hate with hate. It's there. Take your party glasses off.

[aujeff11 6,243]

18 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

1) Your tweet comes from a Trump Super Pac.  Let that sink in for a minute.

The source makes the video of an antifa guy punching a white journalist no less valid...

 

18 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

3) Essentially what I am saying though is that I question your morals at this point, because you are choosing to defend an argument of equivalency that just isn't there.

I equated terrorism with terrorism, violence with violence, hate with hate. It's there. Open your eyes.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Just now, aujeff11 said:

The source makes the video of an antifa guy punching a white journalist no less valid...

 

I equated terrorism with terrorism, violence with violence, hate with hate. It's there. Take your party glasses off.

It's obvious that you and I haven't interacted much.  It's well documented that I don't identify with or follow a political party.  Do I have a rather large disdain for our current President?  Yep.

However, the prescription glasses that I wear allow me to see what happened in Charlottesville quite clearly.  That's the discussion here, not Berkley or Seattle.  I say that because bringing those two incidents into this discussion is a deflection.  There's no defense for rallies in those cities to become violent, but they also aren't germane to the conversation at hand.

I have little to no knowledge about the antifa (just learned about them this weekend).  Were there some antifa members in Charlottesville Saturday?  Probably so.  Did they fight white nationalists?  Probably so.  But a fist-fight doesn't equate to murder.  Let's also remember that all of the white nationalists at the rally were there espousing hate fueled rhetoric.  A minimal amount of counter-protestors were doing the same.  Again, the young lady who died was marching in a street in an orderly fashion.  She was run over from behind by a car.  A young man was using his free speech rights to denounce the white nationalists in attendance.  He was beaten nearly to death. 

The argument you are trying to have is losing sight of what really matters here.  A poisonous group of radicals organized and held a rally denouncing fellow Americans based on their race, religion, and creed while upholding Nazi ideology (Friday night looked a lot like Nuremburg).  In doing so, one person lost her life protesting this.  Another nearly lost his.  Dozens more were injured.  And all the while, POTUS has shown a willingness to tacitly approve of such behavior.   Sometimes in life, there's no middle ground to be had and blame needs to go one way.  This is one of those times.  We can quibble about antifa and their tactics some other time (and it's a valid discussion to be had), but now is not that time.

[AUDub 11,147]

1 hour ago, aujeff11 said:

Why couldn't I? ...

[aujeff11 6,243]

45 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

 Did they fight white nationalists?  Probably so.  But a fist-fight doesn't equate to murder

Ok. Let's remember that your argument was that they did nothing wrong. So did they or did they not do anything wrong? Apparently they had a device that resembled a damn flamethrower there. 

Nobody equated a fistfight to murder and that's a strawman argument. 

45 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

A poisonous group of radicals organized and held a rally denouncing fellow Americans based on their race, religion, and creed while upholding Nazi ideology (Friday night looked a lot like Nuremburg). 

This was legal up to the point that they deviated from the plan but go on. (And the deviation was possibly unintentional, merely resulting from the skirmishes getting out of hand.)

45 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Sometimes in life, there's no middle ground to be had and blame needs to go one way.

Clearly, Charlottesville isn't that time. Just because fistfights doesn't equate doesn't mean to murder that doesn't mean the fistfights are  okay. 

[aujeff11 6,243]

15 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

So it's your opinion that only one side did wrong, and that the other is blameless, too? 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

22 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Ok. Let's remember that your argument was that they did nothing wrong. So did they or did they not do anything wrong? Apparently they had a device that resembled a damn flamethrower there. 

Nobody equated a fistfight to murder and that's a strawman argument. 

This was legal up to the point that they deviated from the plan but go on. (And the deviation was possibly unintentional, merely resulting from the skirmishes getting out of hand.)

Clearly, Charlottesville isn't that time. Just because fistfights doesn't equate doesn't mean to murder that doesn't mean the fistfights are  okay. 

Regarding your flame-thrower comment, here's a story on it including an interview with the man involved in the picture.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/charlottesville-man-pictured-using-homemade-130131619.html

I've said my piece and you know where I stand.  Whether or not something was legal still deviates from the overall point being missed in your argument, but that's my opinion and you're welcome to yours.  For me, this is not a time to try and draw any kind of moral equivalency and doing so is just another insult to those who are being perpetrated against via these extremist groups.  More back and forth while re-swizzling the same arguments does neither of us any good, so I'm out with responding to you on this topic.

 

[aujeff11 6,243]

14 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Regarding your flame-thrower comment, here's a story on it including an interview with the man involved in the picture.

He answers a confederate flag being lunged into his direction with a flamethrower; why doesn't he just cut to the chase and grab a bazooka next? So is he a hero of yours or do you admit using such tactics is wrong for any type of counter protest measures? 

 

14 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

For me, this is not a time to try and draw any kind of moral equivalency and doing so is just another insult to those who are being perpetrated against via these extremist groups.

Wrong. This is the time to quit pussyfooting around the issues and take a hard stance with both sides. Like I said, both sides are terrorizing their own populations ( view Seattle video) and it needs to stop. 

This isn't the time to say one person died, so let's just say only one side is at fault when that is clearly not the case. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

8 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

He answers a confederate flag being lunged into his direction with a flamethrower; why doesn't he just cut to the chase and grab a bazooka next? So is he a hero of yours or do you admit using such tactics is wrong for any type of counter protest measures? 

 

Wrong. This is the time to quit pussyfooting around the issues and take a hard stance with both sides. Like I said, both sides are terrorizing their own populations ( view Seattle video) and it needs to stop. 

This isn't the time to say one person died, so let's just say only one side is at fault when that is clearly not the case. 

Just when I thought I was out......Did you miss the part where he was also shot at?

“At first it was peaceful protest. Until someone pointed a gun at my head. Then the same person pointed it at my foot and shot the ground.”

[AUDub 11,147]

1 hour ago, aujeff11 said:

So it's your opinion that only one side did wrong, and that the other is blameless, too? 

No. That's stupid. Stop being stupid. Stop trying to draw moral equivalencies here.

 

Quote

For starters, while antifa perpetrates violence, it doesn’t perpetrate it on anything like the scale that white nationalists do. It’s no coincidence that it was a Nazi sympathizer—and not an antifa activist—who committed murder in Charlottesville. According to the Anti-Defamation League, right-wing extremists committed 74 percent of the 372 politically motivated murders recorded in the United States between 2007 and 2016. Left-wing extremists committed less than 2 percent.

Second, antifa activists don’t wield anything like the alt-right’s power. White, Christian supremacy has been government policy in the United States for much of American history. Anarchism has not. That’s why there are no statues of Mikhail Bakunin in America’s parks and government buildings. Antifa boasts no equivalent to Steve Bannon, who called his old publication, Breitbart, “the platform for the alt-right,” and now works in the White House. It boasts no equivalent to Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, who bears the middle name of a Confederate general and the first name of the Confederacy’s president, and who allegedly called the NAACP “un-American.” It boasts no equivalent to Alex Jones, who Donald Trump praised as “amazing.” Even if antifa’s vision of society were as noxious as the “alt-right’s,” it has vastly less power to make that vision a reality.

And antifa’s vision is not as noxious. Antifa activists do not celebrate regimes that committed genocide and enforced slavery. They’re mostly anarchists. Anarchism may not be a particularly practical ideology. But it’s not an ideology that depicts the members of a particular race or religion as subhuman.

 

[AUDub 11,147]

Hey, this guy looks familiar. 

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/im-terrified-neo-nazi-blubbers-like-a-baby-in-video-reporting-hes-wanted-for-arrest-in-charlottesville/#.WZR3fohWLed.twitter

[aujeff11 6,243]

 

1 hour ago, Bigbens42 said:

No. That's stupid. Stop being stupid. Stop trying to draw moral equivalencies here.

 

 

Oh right. One is deeply rooted with a long history of violence. The other is a new, loose rebellion with no endgame but violence. So one violence is better than the other. Got it.

Both broke the law in Charlottesville, but only one was at fault. Got it. 

[homersapien 11,361]

KKK Grand Dragon Says He’s ‘Glad That Girl Died’ During Charlottesville Rally

“I think there will be more violence like this in the future to come.”

“Nothing makes us more proud at the KKK than we see white patriots such as James Fields Jr, age 20, taking his car and running over nine communist anti-fascist ... James Fields hail victory,” the recording says. “It’s men like you that have made the great white race strong and will be strong again.”

 

More at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kkk-grand-dragon-charlottesville_us_599457e1e4b009141641c054?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

[aujeff11 6,243]

https://mobile.twitter.com/NewtTrump/status/896953373735481347/video/1

 

sigh

[AUDub 11,147]

22 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

 

Oh right. One is deeply rooted with a long history of violence. The other is a new, loose rebellion with no endgame but violence. So one violence is better than the other. Got it.

Both broke the law in Charlottesville, but only one was at fault. Got it. 

Read the article, and his other essay where he goes into detail on ANTIFA and why they are a problem, o strident defender of the Nazis. 

[aujeff11 6,243]

4 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Read the article, and his other essay where he goes into detail on ANTIFA and why they are a problem, o strident defender of the Nazis. 

No, strident defender of the antifa terrorist organization.

[AUDub 11,147]

18 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

No, strident defender of the antifa terrorist organization.

Well, as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water...

[aujeff11 6,243]

3 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Well, as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water...

Oh! Clever you... 

How about: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

[aujeff11 6,243]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-google-march-20170816-story,amp.html

I guess the alt- lefties don't have the moral high ground after all. Destroying America's proud free speech values with terrorist threats, including ramming a car into a protest march. 

"Conservative protesters scuttled plans to gather outside Google’s offices this weekend, putting on hold an effort to take America’s culture wars directly to Silicon Valley. The region was long insulated from political rancor, but now has become one of the most important ideological battlegrounds.

That became ever more clear Wednesday, when protest organizers said that the news coverage surrounding their plans had led to threats from left-wing “terrorist groups.”

The now-postponed rallies were inspired by James Damore, the former Google engineer who was fired last week for posting a 10-page internal memo arguing that the lack of women in tech could be attributed to biological differences. His dismissal sparked an outcry from conservatives who say their opinions are being muzzled by liberal technology companies and led Damore to criticize his former company for promoting a “particularly intense echo chamber.”

“The March on Google stands for free speech and the open discussion of ideas,” wrote event organizer Jack Posobiec, a conservative media figure who pushed the “Pizzagate” and Seth Rich conspiracy theories and recently was retweeted by the president. Posobiec, who did not respond to questions sent to his Facebook page, had said that the planned marches would not be “alt-right” events and that he wanted to avoid the violence and mayhem experienced in Charlottesville, Va., last weekend. The details Protests had been planned for Saturday at Google headquarters in Mountain View, Calif., and other company offices such as Venice, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Seattle.

Organizers say they now plan to hold the events “in a few weeks’ time.” A post on the march’s website said the event was postponed because of threats from unspecified “alt-left terrorist groups,” including one from someone threatening to drive a car into the march.

[aujeff11 6,243]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Breaking911/status/897532820670775296/video/1

Check out this goob wearing a confederate uniform and the conniptions that he caused. 

And then listen to the police officer at the end * high five*

[AUDub 11,147]

26 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-google-march-20170816-story,amp.html

I guess the alt- lefties don't have the moral high ground after all. Destroying America's proud free speech values with terrorist threats, including ramming a car into a protest march. 

"Conservative protesters scuttled plans to gather outside Google’s offices this weekend, putting on hold an effort to take America’s culture wars directly to Silicon Valley. The region was long insulated from political rancor, but now has become one of the most important ideological battlegrounds.

That became ever more clear Wednesday, when protest organizers said that the news coverage surrounding their plans had led to threats from left-wing “terrorist groups.”

The now-postponed rallies were inspired by James Damore, the former Google engineer who was fired last week for posting a 10-page internal memo arguing that the lack of women in tech could be attributed to biological differences. His dismissal sparked an outcry from conservatives who say their opinions are being muzzled by liberal technology companies and led Damore to criticize his former company for promoting a “particularly intense echo chamber.”

“The March on Google stands for free speech and the open discussion of ideas,” wrote event organizer Jack Posobiec, a conservative media figure who pushed the “Pizzagate” and Seth Rich conspiracy theories and recently was retweeted by the president. Posobiec, who did not respond to questions sent to his Facebook page, had said that the planned marches would not be “alt-right” events and that he wanted to avoid the violence and mayhem experienced in Charlottesville, Va., last weekend. The details Protests had been planned for Saturday at Google headquarters in Mountain View, Calif., and other company offices such as Venice, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Seattle.

Organizers say they now plan to hold the events “in a few weeks’ time.” A post on the march’s website said the event was postponed because of threats from unspecified “alt-left terrorist groups,” including one from someone threatening to drive a car into the march.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/08/16/sorry-conservatives-theres-no-equivalence-between-the-extreme-right-and-the-extreme-left/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-c%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.611424e99f4b

Quote

False equivalence

Now let’s consider the idea that there is an equivalence in America today between the white nationalist/white supremacist/neo-Nazi right and what conservatives increasingly refer to as the “violent left.” This is the claim Trump made specifically about Charlottesville, but it finds increasing purchase on the right. It has a surface appeal, when you see a guy in a hoodie with a bandana over his face smashing a Starbucks window. That’s violent, after all, right? Isn’t all violence bad?

But the differences couldn’t be more profound. Yes, there are a small number of antifa counterprotesters who show up to scuffle with white supremacists when the latter mount a protest (if you’re unfamiliar, historian Mark Bray explains what antifa is). And yes, there have been other incidents, such as at Trump’s inaugural, in which antifa activists committed acts of vandalism. But the far right is 1) large; 2) highly organized; and most importantly, 3) directly tied to the president of the United States and the Republican Party.

Antifa is none of those things. It is tiny, not organized on a broad scale, and has precisely zero ties to any prominent Democrat. The president of the United States and leader of the Republican Party is celebrated and endorsed by the white supremacist right (“Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa,” tweeted David Duke Tuesday); the extreme left views Democrats as an enemy. Trump directly echoes and repeats the arguments and claims of the extreme right, as we saw him do on Tuesday; no elected Democrat shares the radical anti-capitalist ideas of the extreme left. Trump hired Stephen K. Bannon, who ran the white nationalist website Breitbart, which Bannon himself described as “the platform for the alt-right,” to run his campaign and then to be senior adviser in his White House.

It’s hard to know for certain how many converts the white nationalist movement has gained in the past year or two. But what we know for certain is that since Trump seized control of the Republican Party, all manner of far-right racial activists — white nationalists, white supremacists, neo-Nazis — have been emboldened to be more public and vocal about their rancid beliefs. Trump validated them and encouraged them as a candidate, and continues to do so as president.

No conservative can claim that he or she didn’t realize that’s what Trump was doing when they endorsed him, advocated for him and supported him. They accepted that Trump was an ignorant fool and a misogynistic creep and deeply corrupt — and they also accepted that he was welcoming the racist right with open arms. It’s nice that so many of them have come out and said they’re opposed to murderous Nazi terrorism. But however they might try to explain away their own complicity, they can’t blame it on liberals.