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Moore or Strange?


DKW 86

Moore-Strange?  

24 members have voted

  1. 1. Moore-Strange?

    • Moore
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    • Strange
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    • Aubie the Tiger
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2 hours ago, alexava said:

I don't see what two minors fooling around as minors do ( as virtually all of us did) has to do with a 30 something chasing teen girls? Can you explain that? It takes a sick, pathetic bag of s*** to do this. If people don't believe all these women and the dozens of people who confirmed their stories, along with mall security and management AND fellow prosecutors in the office at the time,,,, it's because they choose not to believe it. What's worse is the attempts to explain it away as normal behavior or downplay it.  I hope I misunderstood, but you seem to be doing that. 

Because PT loves to draw false equivalencies to deflect from the issues.  I wasn't a saint, but by the time I was making out with girls and we were both getting handsy, we were both at least 16.  And even though that's the age of consent, even if I'd been 16 and she 15 or 14, laws regarding consent don't apply to age differences that slight.  Because we understand it's not the same thing as an older teen, college kid or a damn 30-something doing the same thing with a girl that age.  But here we are anyway on a tangent that has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

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32 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Well, there's one.

:dunno:

Advertisers are being stripped away from third party media because both sides can only offer “I remember,” and “I heard,” as evidence, and someone dared to question the witch hunt. 

Btw, I heard that it’s well known that you were far from a saint back in the day. 

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1 hour ago, aujeff11 said:

:dunno:

Advertisers are being stripped away from third party media because both sides can only offer “I remember,” and “I heard,” as evidence, and someone dared to question the witch hunt. 

All I'm pointing out is, multiple people who worked both in security and other areas of the mall all have the same remembrance regarding Moore's habits and there being an (official or unofficial) "ban" on him at the mall.  One guy says he doesn't remember that being the case.  Choose which side you think has more credence. 

 

1 hour ago, aujeff11 said:

Btw, I heard that it’s well known that you were far from a saint back in the day. 

Yep. Never said nor implied otherwise.

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Days after defending Moore, Hannity reverses course, demands Moore give a satisfactory answer to the accusations within 24 hours or drop out:

Quote

 

″For me, the judge has 24 hours,” Hannity said Tuesday night. “He must immediately and fully come up with a satisfactory explanation for your inconsistencies that I just showed. You must remove any doubt. If he can’t do that, then Judge Moore needs to get out of this race.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sean-hannity-roy-moore-senate-race_us_5a0bb0e3e4b0bc648a0eb4b7?is8

 

 

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5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

All I'm pointing out is, multiple people who worked both in security and other areas of the mall all have the same remembrance regarding Moore's habits

Link it. Put faces behind the accusations for me. The “one guy” may have have been the owner of the mall..

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2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Days after defending Moore, Hannity reverses course, demands Moore give a satisfactory answer to the accusations within 24 hours or drop out:

 

So one side doesn’t require “burden of proof” in the court of social media and witchhunt, but the other does?

Well, okay. 

 

 

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Just now, aujeff11 said:

Link it. Put faces behind the accusations for me. The “one guy” may have have been the owner of the mall..

I don't have "faces" but there are multiple names.  Like I say, use your own judgment as to whether there was a ban (formal or informal) on Moore at the mall.  But regardless, it does appear he was being watched for being creepy and hitting on high school girls there.

 

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"These stories have been going around this town for 30 years," said Blake Usry, who grew up in the area and lives in Gadsden. "Nobody could believe they hadn't come out yet."

Usry, a traveling nurse, said he knew some girls that Moore tried to flirt with.

"It's not a big secret in this town about Roy Moore," he said. "That's why it's sort of frustrating to watch" the public disbelieve the women who have come forward, he said...

 

...Wendy Miller told The Post that she was 14 and working as Santa's helper at the Gadsden Mall in 1977 when Moore first spoke with her and told her she looked pretty. Two years later, when she was 16, he asked her out on dates, although her mother wouldn't let her go.

Usry, who was a teenager at the time, remembers seeing Moore at the mall often.

"He would go and flirt with all the young girls," he said. "It'd seem like every Friday or Saturday night (you'd see him) walking around the mall, like the kids did."

Jason Nelms, who now lives in Tennessee but grew up in nearby Southside, was a regular at the mall when he was a teenager. 

He recalled being told by a mall employee that they kept watch for an older guy who was known to pick up younger girls.

Nelms said he was told later by a concession worker at the mall that it was Roy Moore...

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/gadsden_residents_say_moores_b.html

 

...

Greg Legat worked at the Record Bar, a music store near Sears in the mall, from 1981-1985. The store was just down from the back entrance of the mall, near the three-screen Mall Theatre. It was a popular place for parents dropping off their teens in the evenings and on weekends.

Legat, now 59, said an off-duty Gadsden police officer named J.D. Thomas told him about various people he should look out for when he was working. This was around 1981, and Thomas worked security at the mall. 

One of the people was a pickpocket, he said, while another was someone prone to pick fights.

One was Roy Moore.

"I asked him, 'What did he do?'" Legat recalled. "He said, 'If you see him, let me know. I'll take care of it.'"...

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/gadsden_residents_say_moores_b.html


 

 

 

 

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This past weekend, I spoke or messaged with more than a dozen people—including a major political figure in the state—who told me that they had heard, over the years, that Moore had been banned from the mall because he repeatedly badgered teen-age girls. Some say that they heard this at the time, others in the years since. These people include five members of the local legal community, two cops who worked in the town, several people who hung out at the mall in the early eighties, and a number of former mall employees. (A request for comment from the Moore campaign was not answered.) Several of them asked that I leave their names out of this piece. The stories that they say they’ve heard for years have been swirling online in the days since the Post published its report. “Sources tell me Moore was actually banned from the Gadsden Mall and the YMCA for his inappropriate behavior of soliciting sex from young girls,” the independent Alabama journalist Glynn Wilson wrote on his Web site on Sunday. (Wilson declined to divulge his sources.) Teresa Jones, a deputy district attorney for Etowah County in the early eighties, told CNN last week that “it was common knowledge that Roy dated high-school girls.” Jones told me that she couldn’t confirm the alleged mall banning, but said, “It’s a rumor I’ve heard for years.”

Greg Legat, who is now fifty-nine and living in East Gadsden, was, from 1981 to 1985, an employee at the Record Bar, a store that was in the Gadsden Mall. By the early eighties, Legat told me, the mall was “the place to be. There were no empty stores. And lots of kids came around. Lots of teen-agers. You went there to see and be seen.” Legat met his wife, Jo Anne, there. She worked at a restaurant called Orange Bowl. Legat remembers that parents dropped their kids off at the mall, typically unchaperoned. Teens filled the place.

Legat says that he saw Moore there a few times, even though his understanding then was that he had already been banned. “It started around 1979, I think,” Legat said. “I know the ban was still in place when I got there.” Legat recalled a Gadsden police officer named J. D. Thomas, now retired, who worked security at the mall. “J. D. was a fixture there, when I was working at the store,” Legat said. “He really looked after the kids there. He was a good guy. J. D. told me, ‘If you see Roy, let me know. He’s banned from the mall.’ ” Legat recalled Thomas telling him, “If you see Moore here, tell me. I’ll take care of him.’ ” Legat said that his boss, Eddie Hill, also told him to look for Moore. A phone call to Hill’s number was not returned.

Reached by phone on Saturday, Thomas, who lives in the nearby town of Southside, declined to discuss the existence of a ban on Moore at the Gadsden Mall. “I don’t have anything to say about that,” he said. A former manager of the mall, who began working there in the late eighties, confirmed the existence of a ban list, but did not recall Moore being on the list during the manager’s tenure there. Barnes Boyle, who is eighty-six, also managed the mall, from 1981 to 1998. His wife, Brenda, told me that Moore was a longtime acquaintance of his—they went to the Y.M.C.A. together often—and that he planned to vote for him. The recent allegations against Moore, the Boyles thought, are likely liberal propaganda and, as Brenda put it, “a sign of the times.”

Jason Nelms, an I.T. worker who grew up in nearby Southside and now lives in Tennessee, regularly visited the Gadsden Mall as a teen-ager, in the early eighties. “It was a joke from one of the managers/assistant managers that they couldn’t keep an eye on their theater and an eye on the kids outside,” he explained to me via Facebook Messenger. “Us kids would congregate outside on the sidewalk near the theater after the mall closed on Friday and Saturday nights. Anyway, when asked why they had to keep an eye outside, they said that some older guy had been trying to pick up younger girls. They didn’t go beyond that but one of the concession workers whispered to us later that it was Roy Moore he was talking about.”

Gadsden’s current law-enforcement community could not confirm the existence of a mall ban on Moore. But two officers I spoke to this weekend, both of whom asked to remain unnamed, told me that they have long heard stories about Moore and the mall. “The general knowledge at the time when I moved here was that this guy is a lawyer cruising the mall for high-school dates,” one of the officers said. The legal age of consent in Alabama is sixteen, so it would not be illegal there for a man in his early thirties to date a girl who was, say, a senior in high school. But these officers, along with the other people I spoke to, said that Moore’s presence at the mall was regarded as a problem. “I was told by a girl who worked at the mall that he’d been run off from there, from a number of stores. Maybe not legally banned, but run off,” one officer told me. He also said, “I heard from one girl who had to tell the manager of a store at the mall to get Moore to leave her alone.”

The second officer went further. “A friend of mine told me he was banned from there,” he said. He added, “I actually voted for Moore. I liked him at one time. But I’m basically disgusted now, to be honest with you. Some of the things he’s said recently, I’ve changed my tune completely about this guy.” He went on, explaining why Moore no longer appeals to him. “When I heard what he said on ‘Hannity’ the other night,” he said, referring to an appearance Moore made on Sean Hannity’s radio show last Friday, “I almost stood straight up. The thing about how he’s never dated anybody without their mother’s permission, that appalled me. That made me want to throw up. Why would you need someone’s permission to date somebody? I’m probably gonna write in Luther Strange.”

 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/locals-were-troubled-by-roy-moores-interactions-with-teen-girls-at-the-gadsden-mall

 

 

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9 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

These stories have been going around this town for 30 years," said Blake Usry, who grew up in the area and lives in Gadsden. "Nobody could believe they hadn't come out yet."

Usry, a traveling nurse, said he knew some girls that Moore tried to flirt with.

"It's not a big secret in this town about Roy Moore," he said. "That's why it's sort of frustrating to watch" the public disbelieve the women who have come forward, he said...

He doesn’t even look 40 on his Facebook. Yeah, he knows nothing.

 

11 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Jason Nelms, who now lives in Tennessee but grew up in nearby Southside, was a regular at the mall when he was a teenager. 

He recalled being told by a mall employee that they kept watch for an older guy who was known to pick up younger girls.

Nelms said he was told later by a concession worker at the mall that it was Roy Moore...

Not a whole lot of proof here also. 

 

13 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Gadsden’s current law-enforcement community could not confirm the existence of a mall ban on Moore. But two officers I spoke to this weekend, both of whom asked to remain unnamed, told me that they have long heard stories about Moore and the mal

More stories, nothing hard enough to count as any type evidence to move the needle either way. Certainly not enough evidence for advertisers to bully Hannity into joining the witchhunt by way of financial coercion.

14 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I was told by a girl who worked at the mall that he’d been run off from there, from a number of stores. Maybe not legally banned, but run off,” one officer told me

More stories.

Here’s a thought, I’m sure a lot of people are told a lot of things. The burden of proof doesn’t swing one way or another via stories such as “well my friend says.”

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11 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

So one side doesn’t require “burden of proof” in the court of social media and witchhunt, but the other does?

Well, okay. 

There's not going to be "proof" per se.  It was an era without ubiquitous cell phone camera and security footage.  So we have to look at what's out there and who we believe. 

On the one hand you have two women who say he sexually assaulted them, one was underage at the time and you have several who claim he was dating and kissing them when they were 16-18 years old and he was in his early 30s.  They all have multiple corroborating witnesses who say that the girls told them about the incidents or the dating relationships back then.  The 14 year old told her mother about his sexual advances about 10 years after the fact.

You have multiple people, with names on the record, saying they either witnessed or that it was well known about Moore's creepy pursuit of teenage girls when he was in his 30s.

And we know that he married a woman 14 years younger than him, which tends to lend some credence to his "cradle robber" tendencies.

There's more but that's a decent gauge.

In the face of such a lineup of people, many of whom admit they are either Trump supporters, that they have backed and voted for Roy Moore through the years or both, Roy Moore has to do better than this:

Quote

 

In an interview with Sean Hannity, Roy Moore said he didn't "generally" date women in their teens when he was in his 30s.

"I don't remember dating any girl without the permission of her mother," Roy Moore said during that interview with Hannity.

 

Like it or not, you have to come up with a satisfactory answer and equivocating "I don't generally..." and "I don't remember..." type answers won't cut it.  If you have something of merit that casts doubt on the facts as these women state them, now's the time to bring it.  This isn't a court of law where the accused can just be silent and not take the stand and rely on presumption of innocence, it's the general public trying to decide who they trust more and how that will affect their vote.

 

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15 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

He doesn’t even look 40 on his Facebook. Yeah, he knows nothing.

 

Not a whole lot of proof here also. 

 

More stories, nothing hard enough to count as any type evidence to move the needle either way. Certainly not enough evidence for advertisers to bully Hannity into joining the witchhunt by way of financial coercion.

More stories.

Here’s a thought, I’m sure a lot of people are told a lot of things. The burden of proof doesn’t swing one way or another via stories such as “well my friend says.”

Here's another:  the mall manager saying he doesn't remember a ban doesn't mean that's the end of it.  He could be misremembering.  Or the ban could have been informal in that the security folks would basically tail him throughout the mall and step in if he crossed any lines.

You asked for names of folks who said otherwise, I gave them to you.  They are no less credible than one dude, mall manager or not, saying he doesn't remember a ban.

And the ban isn't even really the point, though it is an interesting addendum.  The point is the well-known around town habits of Roy Moore hitting on girls half or less than half his age.

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3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

They all have multiple corroborating witnesses who say that the girls told them about the incidents or the dating relationships back then. 

Because an article told you so, you believe this. Just because a girl tells a friend that’s she’s dating an older man, that shouldn’t automatically be deduced to that it was Roy Moore as well.

 

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The 14 year old told her mother about his sexual advances about 10 years after the fact.

 

Convenient

 

5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

And we know that he married a woman 14 years younger than him, which tends to lend some credence to his "cradle robber" tendencies.

**Cradle rocker. 

 

5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

And we know that he married a woman 14 years younger than him, which tends to lend some credence to his "cradle robber" tendencies.

Liking younger women has nothing to do with sexually assaulting minors. Dating 17 year olds isn’t proof either. 

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12 hours ago, alexava said:

When I was 23 an 18 year old girl who was hot as blowed coal came to work at the plant as temp. She was interested in dating me and her mother who also worked there encouraged it. I could not do it. I liked her but the difference was too much and I wanted to avoid a weird situation with her mom if things went bad. And she was younger than both my little sisters. Some folks have a built in meter for appropriate. Some don't. 

That was a very wise decision for a 23-year-old.   

(You must have been awash in women. ;D)

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there is a lot of shame that victims have to deal with and process. and the way ALL victims are treated in the press i absolutely understand why victims take years to come out. its not rocket science.

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8 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Because an article told you so, you believe this. Just because a girl tells a friend that’s she’s dating an older man, that shouldn’t automatically be deduced to that it was Roy Moore as well.

Because I don't wear a tinfoil hat and because I don't believe a WaPo reporter made it up out of thin air and because several of the witnesses went on the record and they would be known by many locals in that small community, I believe it.  And in some cases, Roy Moore was actually named, btw.

Occam's Razor.  Rather than believing in some elaborate payoff scheme to get all these women to lie, or rather than believing in some elaborate story concocted by the WaPo reporter that could easily be undermined with so many names on the record, I tend to believe that they are reporting what they were told by real people.

 

Quote

Convenient

Actually, perfectly normal.  Talk to a few sexual assault victims, especially those whose perp was someone with power or authority or popularity where they lived/worked/went to school or church.  Many don't tell anyone for years, decades.  I personally spoke to one woman I have known for years.  She didn't tell her husband, children or family until 30+ years later.  And her perp wasn't even famous or powerful.

 

Quote

Liking younger women has nothing to do with sexually assaulting minors. Dating 17 year olds isn’t proof either. 

We aren't talking about merely liking younger women.  And if all there was to this entire story was that he was a creeper at 32 dating 16 year olds, he'd be on cruise control right now heading for a 10-13 point win next month.  But when you pair the sexual assault allegations, one with an underage girl with all the creepy hitting on girls half his age, it tends to lend some credence to it as opposed to the accuser being a one-off where there's zero history of him ever showing any interest in girls who weren't close to his own age for instance.

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9 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Here's another:  the mall manager saying he doesn't remember a ban doesn't mean that's the end of it. 

You’re right, but he’s just as likely to know as the handful of people that you listed other than the security guard which we know nothing about.

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

They are no less credible than one dude, mall manager or not, saying he doesn't remember a ban.

 

Lol

 

8 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

And the ban isn't even really the point, though it is an interesting addendum.  The point is the well-known around town habits of Roy Moore hitting on girls half or less than half his age.

Like I said, I live in Gadsden. You don’t get to tell me what’s well known.

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3 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Like I said, I live in Gadsden. You don’t get to tell me what’s well known.

I don't care if you live in Roy Moore's living room.  You don't get to dictate who says what was well known in the Gadsden area in the late 70s/early 80s.  If several people on the record with AL.com and The New Yorker, including someone who served in the D.A.'s office with Moore back then say it was well-known, I'll go with them over you.

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5 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

there is a lot of shame that victims have to deal with and process. and the way ALL victims are treated in the press i absolutely understand why victims take years to come out. its not rocket science.

Were you around when the Dems called Juanita and the other girls liars? It’s funny that I believe the Trump accusers and you say this though. Maybe it’s because they didn’t wait until it was socially hip to make reputation damaging and highly serious allegations.

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Just now, aujeff11 said:

Were you around when the Dems called Juanita and the other girls liars? It’s funny that I believe the Trump accusers and you say this though. Maybe it’s because they didn’t wait until it was socially hip to make reputation damaging and highly serious allegations.

I was and I called them out on it at the time.  I believed Bill's accusers.  I believe Trump's accusers.  It's one reason among several that I voted for neither man.

Not everyone is a party-teat sucking hypocrite you can deflect with whataboutism.

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i never said one side had the advantage over the other. next you will throw out ol roy was a dem when all this happened in gadsden.

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2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You don't get to dictate who says what was well known in the Gadsden area in the late 70s/early 80s. 

Again, you pull up three profiles and you think you say what is well known. Hilarious. 

 

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

If several people on the record with AL.com and The New Yorker,

“I heard” doesn’t make things well known. Could just as easily be a well known rumor. But thanks for letting me know you believe everything you read. 

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1 minute ago, aubiefifty said:

i never said one side had the advantage over the other. next you will throw out ol roy was a dem when all this happened in gadsden.

Well, I wasn’t, but thanks for the intel.

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Just now, aujeff11 said:

Again, you pull up three profiles and you think you say what is well known. Hilarious. 

 

“I heard” doesn’t make things well known. Could just as easily be a well known rumor. But thanks for letting me know you believe everything you read. 

"Jeff says" doesn't make it not well known.  Multiple people in both stories corroborate his tendencies.  Then there's you.  I'll take the field.

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6 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Not everyone is a party-teat sucking hypocrite you can deflect with whataboutism

I pointed out I believed Trump’s accusers as well. What exactly am I whatabouting? I’m making a direct comparison of the response toward the accusers. 

Nice try, though.

 

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Jeff says" doesn't make it not well known

Some random 30 year old guy telling a reporter that it was “well known” for 30 years doesn’t make it well known either. Hearing “well my friends say”, “a co employee said,” “I remember”,  and “anonymous officials” is evidence that does little for me.

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i am originally from gadsden. spent four years in the service but came back home in 77. i lived up by the falls and i can tell you for a fact roy was the talk of the town with the friends i had. that is a fact. i moved in 1980 so i lost track of what happened after that. this is not even a political thing for me but one of common decency. and for the record i trust either party very little. but now that is has been proven it was a lie about the restaurant being real is just another strike. and his campaign put out a dated memo from pastors supporting him trying to make it look like all the fifty something pastors were still ok which is basically a lie. that also is a fact now that some on the list exposed the truth and said they did not support him after the allegations. so why keep ignoring the facts? police have gone on record saying it was true. and there are many more that say it is true but refuse to give their name. i am not going to dig it up but it is all out there if you think i am lying.

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9 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

I pointed out I believed Trump’s accusers as well. What exactly am I whatabouting? I’m making a direct comparison of the response toward the accusers. 

Nice try, though.

Trump's accusers have no more proof than Moore's.

You are whatabouting on Bill Clinton's accusers and who believed them.  

 

9 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Some random 30 year old guy Several people including a deputy district attorney in Etowah County at the time telling a reporter that it was “well known”...

FIFY

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