Moore or Strange?

[TitanTiger 20,459]

4 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

i am originally from gadsden. spent four years in the service but came back home in 77. i lived up by the falls and i can tell you for a fact roy was the talk of the town with the friends i had. that is a fact. 

Well, apparently "Jeff says" trumps all else so...

[aujeff11 6,243]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

Trump's accusers have no more proof than Moore's.

There is much more proof. All 16 of them scattered across decades and didn’t wait for a socially hip #metoo movement. WTF? Not to mention Trump bragging about sexually assaulting women corroborates it. I

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You are whatabouting on Bill Clinton's accusers and who believed them

More like making a direct comparison, given that I’ve condemned both parties for the same crimes. I’m not really sure what you think I’m whatabouting and my purpose behind it.

 FIFY

You seem lost. By the way, do deputy district attorney’s that are not even one year out of law school typically write D.A with their signature? 

 

[TitanTiger 20,459]

4 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

There is much more proof.

Such as?

 

4 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

All 16 of them scattered across decades and didn’t wait for a socially hip #metoo movement.

That is no reason to flip from believing to not believing.  Either it's fishy that it took decades to come forward or it isn't.  Either it's fishy to wait until just before a general election or it isn't. 

 

4 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

WTF? Not to mention Trump bragging about sexually assaulting women corroborates it. 

Of course it does.  Then again, you have people saying he was speaking hypothetically - locker room braggadocio.  Either way it's circumstantial.  And we have Moore on the other hand with a well known history of hitting on and dating girls half his age.  We have him dating and marrying a girl 14 years younger than him.  At some point, the circumstantial and corroborating on the record 'testimony' adds up.

 

4 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

More like making a direct comparison, given that I’ve condemned both parties for the same crimes. I’m not really sure what you think I’m whatabouting and my purpose behind it.

You directed it at aubiefifty as if he was holding Moore to a different standard, or pointing out the fact that liberals were hypocrites over Clinton compared to how they were with Trump and now Moore is relevant.  It's not.

 

4 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

You seem lost.

Well, you seem thick-headed so we'll call it a draw.

 

4 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

By the way, do deputy district attorney’s that are not even one year out of law school typically write D.A with their signature? 

I don't know.  Haven't done a survey. 

Do people sometimes inflate their status and titles to try to impress people?

[TitanTiger 20,459]

For those who care, here is the mall employee, Greg Legat, on camera with CNN telling his story on Moore's behavior at the mall and what he was told to do if he saw him there.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/11/15/roy-moore-reputation-local-mall-watch-list-employee-intv-tuchman-ac.cnn/video/playlists/roy-moore/

 

[AUDub 11,113]

Nice hat.

[alexava 6,972]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

That was a very wise decision for a 23-year-old.   

(You must have been awash in women. )

I didn’t have a problem with the ladies at all at that time. Other things went into that decision. I already had some regular female company (as already mentioned her mother was a respected coworker) . And I TRIED to maintain a policy of not dating women I worked with. Not usually a good idea. “You’re sex and checks should never come from the same place “.

[aujeff11 6,243]

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

That is no reason to flip from believing to not believing

Yea, there is, if not for the gigantic number of women. Trump’s actually faced lawsuits which required subpoenas. 

 

16 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Either it's fishy that it took decades to come forward or it isn't.  Either it's fishy to wait until just before a general election or it isn't.

The situation is fishy in more ways than two. 

18 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

That is no reason to flip from believing to not believing

 It’s literally two different cases, different fact pattern, and different circumstances. Some which even required lawsuits and subpoenas. Sure you can.

20 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

And we have Moore on the other hand with a well known history of hitting on and dating girls half his age. 

I used to hit on and dated women all the time. If it comes to light that I supposedly sexually assaulted women, the fact that I dated women in the past provides no proof of guilt whatsoever. Same for 17yo girls. Just because a 32yo has a history of dating 17yo women, there is no implied inclination to sexually assault or mistreating them, creepiness or not. 

22 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You directed it at aubiefifty as if he was holding Moore to a different standard, or pointing out the fact that liberals were hypocrites over Clinton compared to how they were with Trump and now Moore is relevant.  It's not.

Because the reaction between Clinton and Trump is clearly different than Roy. Party lines have nothing to do with it.

It is. 

26 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Well, you seem thick-headed so we'll call it a draw.

 

I don’t have time to answer to your clinging of baseless facts that are supported by rumor and innuendo.  Let’s call it a draw, indeed.

[aujeff11 6,243]

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

For those who care, here is the mall employee, Greg Legat, on camera with CNN telling his story on Moore's behavior at the mall and what he was told to do if he saw him there.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/11/15/roy-moore-reputation-local-mall-watch-list-employee-intv-tuchman-ac.cnn/video/playlists/roy-moore/

 

That guy looks familiar. Nice hat indeed

 

[TitanTiger 20,459]

What we've learned about sexual assault (hat tip to Simcha Fisher):

Quote

If you tell the police you’ve been sexually assaulted, it’s because you’re looking for attention. You should file a civil suit, instead.

If you file a civil suit, it’s because you’re looking for money, and are not telling the truth.

If you don’t file a civil suit, that shows you don’t have a case, and are not telling the truth.

If you tell someone right away, that shows suspicious presence of mind, and proves that you engineered the whole thing to embarrass the alleged perpetrator.

If you don’t tell anyone right away, that shows a suspicious lack of urgency, and proves that you are making up the story for no reason other than to embarrass the alleged perpetrator.

If you don’t file a civil suit, it shows that you don’t need the money and are just doing it for attention, because people love the kind of fabulous attention they get when they accuse someone of sexual assault, especially if that person is popular or powerful.

If you do file a civil suit, it shows that you’re such a gold digger, you don’t mind getting all the horrible attention that no victim in her right mind would want to get, especially if the alleged perpetrator is popular or powerful.

If you’re the only one who accuses someone of sexual assault, it shows that your story is unbelievable.

If lots of other people make similar accusations, that is suspiciously orchestrated, and shows that your story is unbelievable.

If you were in the same room with the person who sexually assaulted you, that shows that you are just as guilty as he is, because you’re in the same room with a sexual predator, and who would do that?

If the person you’re accusing of sexual assault is rich, famous, or powerful, then that shows that you’re just looking for attention, and it never happened.

If the person you’re accusing of sexual assault is rich, famous, and powerful, that shows that you should have known he is a sexual predator, and you wanted it to happen.

If you tell someone right away, they will assume you’re lying.

If you don’t tell anyone right away, they will assume you’re lying, because you didn’t tell anyone right away.

If you tell, that’s a count against you. If you don’t tell, that’s a count against you. If you speak alone, that’s a count against you. If you speak as one of a crowd, that’s a count against you. If you sue, that’s a count against you. If you don’t sue, that’s a count against you.

If you tell someone that you’ve been sexually assaulted, it probably didn’t actually happen the way you said, and even if it did, it was your fault in some way, and you should have realized that it would happen, and there is no particular reason anyone should believe you, and if you think the rape itself was painful and humiliating, just wait till you see what you’ve got coming next, when you try to tell someone.

So why didn’t you tell someone sooner?

Clearly, because it didn’t happen. There can be no other explanation...

...This is what I’ve learned. If you’ve been sexually assaulted, your only real recourse is not to have been sexually assaulted. Anything and everything you do from that moment forward is evidence against you. The deck is stacked against you as a victim because you are a victim. They very moment you even breathe the phrase “sexual assault,” that’s evidence in the minds of many  that no such thing happened, and anyway it was your fault.

So tell me. What is a victim of sexual assault supposed to do, in order to be believed? What? You tell me.

 

[TitanTiger 20,459]

Slate writer takes on Roy Moore's talking points one by one:

 

Quote

 

1. “I never met this woman.” Leigh Corfman, now 53, told the Post that Moore chatted her up and asked her out on dates in 1979, when she was 14 and he was 32. Moore calls this tale a “fabrication.” On Friday, he told Sean Hannity: “I don’t know Miss Corfman from anybody. I never talked to her. I’ve never had any contact with her.”

That’s odd. Corfman’s mother, Nancy Wells, says she was with her daughter when they met Moore in 1979. She says Moore introduced himself by name. The Post found legal records confirming that the girl and her mother were where they claim to have been, just down the hall from Moore’s office, on the day in question.

Corfman’s friends also vouch for her account. They weren’t there when she met Moore, but soon afterward, she told them about dates with him, including a sexual incident. One friend recalls details from Corfman’s contemporaneous reports (Moore “wore nothing but tight white underwear”) that match her current story. An ex-boyfriend of Corfman’s says she also told him about having dated Moore. To discount Corfman’s story, you’d have to believe not only that she’s trying to sabotage Moore’s campaign but that she prepared the attack 38 years ago.

Or perhaps you imagine that the Post twisted Corfman’s story to hurt Moore or that her mother is fibbing to protect her. That seems to be what Breitbart, a pro-Moore news outlet, suspected. On Saturday, a Breitbart reporter asked Corfman’s mother to describe the 1979 meeting with Moore again. According to the reporter, “Wells recounted the story essentially the same way she told it to the Post.” She also confirmed that the Post article was “truthful and it was researched very well.”

 

2. I never dated teens in my 30s. Hannity asked Moore whether he’d ever “dated anybody that was in their late teens like that when you were 32.” Moore said, “It would have been out of my customary behavior.” Then Moore gave a firmer answer: “I’ve said no.” That statement contradicts the accounts of three other women—Wendy Miller, Debbie Gibson, and Gloria Deason—who, according to the Post, were 16, 17, and 18, respectively, when Moore asked them out. Miller was 14 when Moore first told her she was pretty, though he didn’t explicitly court her until two years later. Her story is backed up by her mother, who recalls telling Moore that he was too old to date her daughter. “Let’s not rob the cradle,” Miller’s mother told Moore.

None of these women knew one another. How, then, did they produce similar stories? There are two possible answers. One is that Moore had a pattern of pursuing teens. The other is that the Post orchestrated the allegations. But then you’d have to explain how the Post went back in time and got Corfman to tell the same story to two friends and a boyfriend decades ago. You’d have to explain why Corfman’s and Miller’s mothers would each lie about witnessing encounters with Moore. And you’d have to explain why several other people from Moore’s town, Gadsden, Alabama, are giving firsthand or secondhand accounts, on the record, of Moore flirting with girls. “It was common knowledge that Roy dated high school girls,” said Teresa Jones, Moore’s former colleague in the district attorney’s office. “We wondered why someone his age would hang out at high school football games and the mall.” The Post has no hand in these stories. Many of them are appearing on AL.com, a website for Alabama newspapers. Are all of these people lying?

And how do you explain Moore’s self-incriminating remarks? “I don’t remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her mother,” he told Hannity. Doesn’t that suggest Moore’s targets were so young he had to consult their parents? Meanwhile, Moore claims that the behavior Deason and Gibson attributed to him was “altogether appropriate.” Really? Gibson says she was 17 when Moore, who was 34, asked her out and kissed her in his bedroom. Deason says she was 18, below Alabama’s legal drinking age, when Moore ordered alcohol for her at restaurants. What does that say about Moore’s idea of appropriateness?

 

3. “This county is a dry county.” Corfman, like Deason, says Moore gave her alcohol when she was underage. Moore says both stories are impossible, because Gadsden is in “a dry county” where they “never would have had liquor.” But that’s not true. The county legalized alcohol sales in 1972, years before these alleged incidents. Gadsden’s municipal code permits liquor sales by “restaurant retail licensees.” The Post confirmed during the time Deason says she and Moore were dating, alcohol was for sale at the pizzeria where she recalls Moore ordering bottles of rosé for their table. (She also says Moore ordered cocktails for her at a Chinese restaurant.) Moore is either misrepresenting or misremembering the law. Either way, his assurances can’t be trusted.

 

4. “I’ve been married to my wife, Kayla, for nearly 33 years.” Moore presents this as proof of his character. But do the math. Thirty-three years ago, when they met, Moore was 38, and his wife-to-be was 24. That’s a difference of 14 years, roughly the same age gap his accusers describe. Kayla Moore’s bio also mentions that she had “previously been named Miss Alabama US Teen 2nd Runner up.” Moore didn’t just date pretty women who were 14 years his junior. He married one.

 

5. “I don’t even know the woman.” On Monday, a fifth woman, Beverly Young Nelson, said that Moore had sexually assaulted her in his car outside the Old Hickory House in Gadsden—where she worked and he was a regular customer—when he was 30 and she was 16. Moore says that’s impossible: “I don’t even know the woman. I don’t know anything about her. I don’t even know where the restaurant is or was.”

That denial won’t stand up. If Moore doesn’t know Nelson, why does she have a high school yearbook signed by him (“to a sweeter, more beautiful girl”) on Dec. 22, 1977, just before the alleged incident? And why does the inscription say, in handwriting remarkably similar to Moore’s, “Olde Hickory House”?

You can’t dismiss Nelson as part of a Post conspiracy; she didn’t speak to the paper. Nor can you brush her off as a partisan. Like Corfman, she voted for Trump. Like Corfman, she told her family about the incident years ago, long before Moore ran for the Senate.

 

Five girls, two mothers, witnesses, court records, contemporaneous reports, and a note in Moore’s handwriting. All the evidence says Moore is lying. For those who have long believed in him, it’s hard to accept he could have done what these women allege. But it’s harder to explain the alternative: that all the witnesses are liars and forgers.

At her press conference on Monday, Nelson recounted through tears what Moore told her in his car after the alleged assault: “You’re just a child. I am the district attorney of Etowah County. And if you tell anyone about this, no one will ever believe you.” For 40 years, Nelson kept quiet. But it’s no longer her word against Moore’s. Now there are other witnesses, with records to back them up. And if they’re not lying, Moore is.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/11/the_mountain_of_evidence_against_roy_moore.html?wpsrc=sh_all_dt_fb_top

 

 

[AUDub 11,113]

Shelby says he isn't voting for Moore. 

[DKW 86 7,407]

30 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Shelby says he isn't voting for Moore. 

Bannon and Hannity are both leaving Moore as well. 

[AUDub 11,113]

Moore's attorney is a blithering idiot

 

[aujeff11 6,243]

57 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

And how do you explain Moore’s self-incriminating remarks? “I don’t remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her mother,” he told Hannity. Doesn’t that suggest Moore’s targets were so young he had to consult their parents?

Courtship is a relationship between a man and a woman in which they seek to determine if it is God’s will for them to marry each other. Under the protection, guidance, and blessing of parents or mentors, the couple concentrates on developing a deep friendship that could lead to marriage, as they discern their readiness for marriage and God’s timing for their marriage. (See Proverbs 3:5–7.)

 Apparently I’m the only person that has ever heard of this. 

[TitanTiger 20,459]

18 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Courtship is a relationship between a man and a woman in which they seek to determine if it is God’s will for them to marry each other. Under the protection, guidance, and blessing of parents or mentors, the couple concentrates on developing a deep friendship that could lead to marriage, as they discern their readiness for marriage and God’s timing for their marriage. (See Proverbs 3:5–7.)

 Apparently I’m the only person that has ever heard of this. 

I'm quite familiar with it actually.  I've been in churches where this sort of approach to 'dating' and marriage was prevalent.

And you know that Roy Moore was following this particularly old fashioned form of "courtship dating" how exactly?

[TitanTiger 20,459]

23 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

Let me ask a question. How many here can truthfully say they have never so much as touched an underage girl in an inappropriate way. 

@BamaGrad03 just chimed in on this one to say:  "Me.  I've literally never done that."

[AUDub 11,113]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

@BamaGrad03 just chimed in on this one to say:  "Me.  I've literally never done that."

Where's he been?

[TitanTiger 20,459]

1 minute ago, Bigbens42 said:

Where's he been?

Crazy busy with work and two kids under the age of three.

[AUUSN 823]

[aujeff11 6,243]

12 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

And you know that Roy Moore was following this particularly old fashioned form of "courtship dating" how exactly?

Because use your brains dude. Don’t evoke Occams Razor and literally I have to feed you everything. Courting people is understood as there will be temptations so accountability has to be had from above. It wasn’t designed to prey on girls, even though that is the way it is shaping up to be. 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/article184373888.html

[TitanTiger 20,459]

Just now, aujeff11 said:

Because use your brains dude. Don’t evoke Occams Razor and literally I have to feed you everything. Courting people is understood as there will be temptations so accountability has to be had from above. It wasn’t designed to prey on girls, even though that is the way it is shaping up to be. 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/article184373888.html

In other words, you're just pulling stuff you know little about from your nether regions per usual just to argue.

I'm far more familiar with the concept than you are.  But there's a difference in the "courtship dating" movement and just old fashioned small town asking the parents before dating their daughter thing.  There's zero evidence that Moore was part of any such movement back in the late 70s.

[AUDub 11,113]

 

[aujeff11 6,243]

14 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I'm far more familiar with the concept than you are

No you’re not, apparently. To even imply such is silly.

14 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

In other words, you're just pulling stuff you know little about from your nether regions per usual just to argue.

 

English please. I’ve suggested that this was a courtship for three days now. And crickets from the peanut gallery. 

 

14 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

But there's a difference in the "courtship dating" movement and just old fashioned small town asking the parents before dating their daughter thing. 

Yep, and I never said it was the later. Whatever the case, whether former or later, how does either one suggest incrimination? Age isn’t a determining factor.

[AUDub 11,113]

 

[aujeff11 6,243]

6 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

 

Report them for what?