aujeff11 6,243 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 3 hours ago, Tigerbelle said: I hate this. That kid is no doubt being exploited and it's being condoned. In what way? The NCAA is who is exploiting players if anybody is exploiting the one and done players. If these one and done recruits are getting paid for working in the G league, they’re not really getting exploited at all. If anything, they’re doing themselves a favor. I do seek your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDEKC 187 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Tiger said: Can you elaborate? I'm torn so I want to hear other perspectives. On one hand I like that a kid has the option. On the other I'm not sure if this will hurt or help college basketball. Will it eventually turn into a bunch of 4 and 5* kids start doing this each year depleting college hoops? And why wouldn't or shouldn't they? They can get free housing and get ~30k of real money for a year in the G-League. I don't want to see college hoops take a hit, especially now that we are starting to have some real success. Lol, selfish I know! College baseball and college hockey are probably the best they have been in a long time and they have rules allowing kids to go professional after high school. if anything I think the baseball model is the best. You can go pro, but if you decide to go to college you have to stay for 3 years. I think this gives the best balance of talent and experience and overall the product is better for college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger 8,818 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, WDEKC said: College baseball and college hockey are probably the best they have been in a long time and they have rules allowing kids to go professional after high school. if anything I think the baseball model is the best. You can go pro, but if you decide to go to college you have to stay for 3 years. I think this gives the best balance of talent and experience and overall the product is better for college. Right. And after thinking it through, there are only so many G-League spots. These are full of teams of adults who are fringe NBA players. So college may still be the best route outside of a select few. It depends on how attractive the G-league becomes though, I don't think they've set the salary for G-league players for next season. Will be interesting to see how this kid does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU64 10,122 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 32 minutes ago, Tiger said: Right. And after thinking it through, there are only so many G-League spots. These are full of teams of adults who are fringe NBA players. So college may still be the best route outside of a select few. It depends on how attractive the G-league becomes though, I don't think they've set the salary for G-league players for next season. Will be interesting to see how this kid does. The league may restructure if there are more young players. But exploited.....if anyone is concerned they should look at Chuck P who exploited two players and families with very bad results. Otherwise, if worked correctly, the G league is no worse than the dozens or hundreds of HS kids who sign professional contracts to play baseball in Rookie Leagues and lower Class A leagues. What's exploiting them in my view is forcing them to develop their game under the limited coaching allowed by the NCAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aujeff11 6,243 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, AU64 said: The league may restructure if there are more young players. But exploited.....if anyone is concerned they should look at Chuck P who exploited two players and families with very bad results. Otherwise, if worked correctly, the G league is no worse than the dozens or hundreds of HS kids who sign professional contracts to play baseball in Rookie Leagues and lower Class A leagues. What's exploiting them in my view is forcing them to develop their game under the limited coaching allowed by the NCAA. Thanks. I have questions regarding the actual process post HS graduation and prior to the actual NBA draft night and the affiliations of the G league teams. For example, can the New York Knicks sign a kid fresh out of high school to their affiliate G League team ( essentially maintaining dibs on player) and then officially draft him after his requisite one year between college and the professional league? Or does the draft night open up the case where the kid is back on the market? IMO, with the former, it’s jeopardizing the level of play if every team doesn’t have an equal shot with drafting the best players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger 8,818 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 30 minutes ago, aujeff11 said: Thanks. I have questions regarding the actual process post HS graduation and prior to the actual NBA draft night and the affiliations of the G league teams. For example, can the New York Knicks sign a kid fresh out of high school to their affiliate G League team ( essentially maintaining dibs on player) and then officially draft him after his requisite one year between college and the professional league? Or does the draft night open up the case where the kid is back on the market? IMO, with the former, it’s jeopardizing the level of play if every team doesn’t have an equal shot with drafting the best players. This is how I understand it for this particular case:: His rights will only be owned by whichever G-League team drafts/signs him independently. So if the Knicks affiliate gets this kid, only the affiliate owns his rights and not the Knicks. Meaning they can trade him to another G League team, but he cannot be called up by an NBA team (knicks or anyone else) and his NBA rights can only be obtained through the NBA Draft next June. So the kid is back on the market essentially once he completes his "one year removed from high school" requirement to enter the NBA draft. So it does create a weird space of where an NBA's G-League affiliate is coaching and training this one kid up for another NBA team to draft him. It will be interesting to see how teams handle that, why would they want to pay a kid to train him for minimal odds of actually having him help their franchise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuburnNTexas 7,128 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I would actually prefer it if they did it like Baseball where they go through a draft process and the team that draft's them owns their rights. It would then be in the interest of the team to provide the best coaching and training to secure their investment has a chance to make the NBA. Also by doing this they could still have college eligibility to play another Sport and get a scholarship if Basketball did not work out. I look at the size a skill set of some of these guys and I see WR's, DB's, TE's, D-Linemen, and O-Linemen who would be a couple years older and more mature than normal Freshmen. Not all of them but it would give some kids a second option if Pro-ball did not work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU64 10,122 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, aujeff11 said: Thanks. I have questions regarding the actual process post HS graduation and prior to the actual NBA draft night and the affiliations of the G league teams. For example, can the New York Knicks sign a kid fresh out of high school to their affiliate G League team ( essentially maintaining dibs on player) and then officially draft him after his requisite one year between college and the professional league? Or does the draft night open up the case where the kid is back on the market? IMO, with the former, it’s jeopardizing the level of play if every team doesn’t have an equal shot with drafting the best players. Some good questions and probably nobody knows but IMO, it should not be the wild wild west where a "mentor" is out shopping a kid around to the highest bidder. Something needs to happen to give these kids an honest choice....which I understand the NCAA might be in favor of since it removes some of the pressure on them to allow players to be paid while on scholarship;. I guess the baseball draft is a possible model for basketball. NCAA is facing a bunch of legal issues about preventing players from profiting from their own image and stuff like that so it might work for the NCAA's position to be: After HS a player can do whatever he or she wishes.....play for pay somewhere ....G League, Europe or wherever.....or sign a scholarship to a college. NBA has to get on board I guess but the apparel companies could finance the league and sign the players perhaps. The league does not have to be very large.....8 or 10 teams at most to catch kids who sign up from HS or who decide to leave college after a year or two and who are not good enough to be drafted. I key point in all of this. The only reason most of these hot shot players have "market value" for their image is because of the Universities they are playing for. A hot shot HS kid playing for UK might see his picture on tee shirts and his number on jerseys and his shoes are selling like hotcakes....but most are not smart enough to realize that they have all that notoriety because of U of Kentucky...and not who they are. Put that same kid on the Fort Wayne Hoosiers in a G League, no matter how good he might be, a crowd of 1000 might be a good night and nobody is gonna be interested in what shoes or shirt he wears . Too many of these guys have been convinced that it's all about them.....and don't realize it is about the University and the alums and students......and they are getting a free ride to wealth based on this ready made base of customers. To be blunt.....the game ain't about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustache eagle 2,389 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I like the baseball model. Give kids a chance to go pro if they think they are good enough. “Force” the nba/apparels to put some real money up and hopefully enough money the kids have a cushion if their risk doesn’t work out. Also gives the colleges some stability and I Think the college team product would improve with the players getting at least 3 years worth of maturing. I think it’s a win-win. Of course the NBA would have to buy in. Only other option the NCAA could do is make any AAU player ineligible to play college basketball - yes that would be extreme but they could do it if they really wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aujeff11 6,243 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 5 hours ago, Tiger said: So it does create a weird space of where an NBA's G-League affiliate is coaching and training this one kid up for another NBA team to draft him. It will be interesting to see how teams handle that, why would they want to pay a kid to train him for minimal odds of actually having him help their franchise? Helluva weird indeed. 3 hours ago, AU64 said: Some good questions and probably nobody knows but IMO, it should not be the wild wild west where a "mentor" is out shopping a kid around to the highest bidder. Something needs to happen to give these kids an honest choice....which I understand the NCAA might be in favor of since it removes some of the pressure on them to allow players to be paid while on scholarship;. I guess the baseball draft is a possible model for basketball. NCAA is facing a bunch of legal issues about preventing players from profiting from their own image and stuff like that so it might work for the NCAA's position to be: After HS a player can do whatever he or she wishes.....play for pay somewhere ....G League, Europe or wherever.....or sign a scholarship to a college. NBA has to get on board I guess but the apparel companies could finance the league and sign the players perhaps. The league does not have to be very large.....8 or 10 teams at most to catch kids who sign up from HS or who decide to leave college after a year or two and who are not good enough to be drafted. I key point in all of this. The only reason most of these hot shot players have "market value" for their image is because of the Universities they are playing for. A hot shot HS kid playing for UK might see his picture on tee shirts and his number on jerseys and his shoes are selling like hotcakes....but most are not smart enough to realize that they have all that notoriety because of U of Kentucky...and not who they are. Put that same kid on the Fort Wayne Hoosiers in a G League, no matter how good he might be, a crowd of 1000 might be a good night and nobody is gonna be interested in what shoes or shirt he wears . Too many of these guys have been convinced that it's all about them.....and don't realize it is about the University and the alums and students......and they are getting a free ride to wealth based on this ready made base of customers. To be blunt.....the game ain't about them. All great points. Especially the G league crowd size. It would have to take a Lebron type athlete to generate a following at the G league level. Also, as you mentioned, the crowd sizes would be tremendously different. Who would rather play for a crowd of 650 and receive the stardom and luxuries of maybe a MLB AA player over playing at Duke for the Cameron Crazies and be rockstars on campus? At the G league, these 18 year old kids would be playing with jealous much older players with lesser salaries sometimes and would receive a bunch of flack. I’m sure many kids will choose to still play in tbe G league for the money, but the league still has obstacles to overcome. Lastly, if the G league does become very big, and the salaries for the one and done players increase, maybe more riders can be offered as well- such as a free education such as what Tyler Stovall and Ray received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU64 10,122 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 40 minutes ago, aujeff11 said: Helluva weird indeed. All great points. Especially the G league crowd size. It would have to take a Lebron type athlete to generate a following at the G league level. Also, as you mentioned, the crowd sizes would be tremendously different. Who would rather play for a crowd of 650 and receive the stardom and luxuries of maybe a MLB AA player over playing at Duke for the Cameron Crazies and be rockstars on campus? At the G league, these 18 year old kids would be playing with jealous much older players with lesser salaries sometimes and would receive a bunch of flack. I’m sure many kids will choose to still play in tbe G league for the money, but the league still has obstacles to overcome. Lastly, if the G league does become very big, and the salaries for the one and done players increase, maybe more riders can be offered as well- such as a free education such as what Tyler Stovall and Ray received. Those things are easy to deal with but a point I think many people are overlooking is that guys like Bagley are household names because they play at Duke or Kentucky or Kansas....even if for only one year......otherwise, what are their 'personal brands" worth.....about nothing. .....no nationwide TV and most of the basketball public would not care much about them any more than they get excited about some baseball phenom who is playing for the Hickory Crawdads in lower class A. They might learn that it's the NCAA and the member schools that can make them rich and not the other way around. BUT...if they don't want to even pretend they are college students for a year, there should be a another way. BUT also....if they decide to go to college, they need to act like college students and NCAA should hammer them and schools that break the rules and forget the sympathy stuff about poor kids being taken advantage of by NCAA schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerbelle 5,299 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 7 hours ago, AU64 said: The league may restructure if there are more young players. But exploited.....if anyone is concerned they should look at Chuck P who exploited two players and families with very bad results. Otherwise, if worked correctly, the G league is no worse than the dozens or hundreds of HS kids who sign professional contracts to play baseball in Rookie Leagues and lower Class A leagues. What's exploiting them in my view is forcing them to develop their game under the limited coaching allowed by the NCAA. What difference does it make who does the exploitation? It still hurts the kid. That's not really any kind of point to try and make. One is as bad as the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aujeff11 6,243 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 32 minutes ago, AU64 said: Those things are easy to deal with but a point I think many people are overlooking is that guys like Bagley are household names because they play at Duke or Kentucky or Kansas....even if for only one year......otherwise, what are their 'personal brands" worth.....about nothing. .....no nationwide TV and most of the basketball public would not care much about them any more than they get excited about some baseball phenom who is playing for the Hickory Crawdads in lower class A. They might learn that it's the NCAA and the member schools that can make them rich and not the other way around. You’d might be surprised. There are players like Colin Sexton that I knew about last year before Bama ever took advantage of his services. He was already widely assumed a top draft pick the next year. Likewise there is already Zion Williamson, which is an internet dunking sensation that is committed to Duke. Overall, I agree with you that the NCAA helps the players become rich later, but there is a talented tenth (MLK) that doesn’t need the NCAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerbelle 5,299 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 9 hours ago, aujeff11 said: In what way? The NCAA is who is exploiting players if anybody is exploiting the one and done players. If these one and done recruits are getting paid for working in the G league, they’re not really getting exploited at all. If anything, they’re doing themselves a favor. I do seek your reply. He's too young to know what he really wants. He should at least have the college experience for a while. I bet he won't see much if any of that money. A kid who can go to college for free, and probably get to the NCAA Tourney should have that opportunity. He's going to miss out on so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU64 10,122 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 1 hour ago, aujeff11 said: You’d might be surprised. There are players like Colin Sexton that I knew about last year before Bama ever took advantage of his services. He was already widely assumed a top draft pick the next year. Likewise there is already Zion Williamson, which is an internet dunking sensation that is committed to Duke. Overall, I agree with you that the NCAA helps the players become rich later, but there is a talented tenth (MLK) that doesn’t need the NCAA. Nobody outside of his home town would care about him if he were not being recruited to big name colleges. Their college affiliation is what makes them known. and wealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU64 10,122 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 40 minutes ago, Tigerbelle said: He's too young to know what he really wants. He should at least have the college experience for a while. I bet he won't see much if any of that money. A kid who can go to college for free, and probably get to the NCAA Tourney should have that opportunity. He's going to miss out on so much. College is overated...I bet half the NBA players don't have a college degree....maybe more. They don't need a degree to play professional baseball or basketball..or work at a nearby manufacturing plant. That is not taking advantage of anyone....that is just life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aujeff11 6,243 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 7 hours ago, AU64 said: Nobody outside of his home town would care about him if he were not being recruited to big name colleges. Their college affiliation is what makes them known. and wealthy. Who? Zion? He’s already an Internet sensation. He was featured on ESPN before he even chose a college. Before the one and done rule, there didn’t have to be college at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU64 10,122 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 38 minutes ago, aujeff11 said: Who? Zion? He’s already an Internet sensation. He was featured on ESPN before he even chose a college. Before the one and done rule, there didn’t have to be college at all. Sure... He is from 30 miles from here...had not heard of him until ESPN made him known....and they made him known because of the recruiting angle. So why Duke and not Clemson or USCe ? why that great Duke education of course. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerbelle 5,299 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 On 3/30/2018 at 10:18 PM, AU64 said: College is overated...I bet half the NBA players don't have a college degree....maybe more. They don't need a degree to play professional baseball or basketball..or work at a nearby manufacturing plant. That is not taking advantage of anyone....that is just life. That's for him to decide after he's had the opportunity to experience it....not those who stand to gain from him skipping college. And one of the big reasons so many NBA players end up broke is due to their lack of education. They do need an education and the life skills you learn in college. Manufacturing is no longer a long term career path. Automation is killing it so I hope you weren't serious. If he ends up broke and out of the NBA which is not all that far fetched he will have nothing to fall back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU64 10,122 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Tigerbelle said: That's for him to decide after he's had the opportunity to experience it....not those who stand to gain from him skipping college. And one of the big reasons so many NBA players end up broke is due to their lack of education. They do need an education and the life skills you learn in college. Manufacturing is no longer a long term career path. Automation is killing it so I hope you weren't serious. If he ends up broke and out of the NBA which is not all that far fetched he will have nothing to fall back on. Manufacturing was just an example but the folks working in the automobile industry across the south say hello.....automation is part of the business but people are operating those devices and maybe you ought to take a ride down around to see what modern manufacturing looks like in the south east. And as you say....that's for him to decide......and maybe putting road blocks in his way to force him to take a route he prefers not to take is not the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger 8,818 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Mustapha is a good kid with a good head on his shoulders. He will look at all his options and do the best thing for him and his family in the long run. Apparently he almost left AU last year -- and not because he wanted to go pro, but because he was not happy with how the team's chemistry was, how discipline was handled, and how there was a lack of consistent accountability on the team. He sat with Bruce and they discussed these things. Now Bruce probably corrected some of these issues as team chemistry was visibly much better, but also 2 players who had no interest in the growth of the program in TJ Dunans and Ronnie Johnson also departed the program which IMO did not hurt matters at all. I think the fact that he voiced these concerns reflects very positively for him not only in that it's a mature thing for a 20 year old to notice and know that it's not the best environment to foster team or personal growth but also the fact that at such a young age he knows how important those thing actually are in helping these guys get to where they want to go. If he does leave AU in a few months I will assume that he has done his full research and looked at every angle rather than hastily made a decision to chase a dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDEKC 187 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 On 3/31/2018 at 6:41 AM, AU64 said: Sure... He is from 30 miles from here...had not heard of him until ESPN made him known....and they made him known because of the recruiting angle. So why Duke and not Clemson or USCe ? why that great Duke education of course. ? Just because you didn't know about him doesn't mean he was unknown. He's been youtube/internet famous since his sophomore season. The truly great or entertaining players don't need a college to enhance their brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger 8,818 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 1 minute ago, WDEKC said: Just because you didn't know about him doesn't mean he was unknown. He's been youtube/internet famous since his sophomore season. The truly great or entertaining players don't need a college to enhance their brand. Right, Zion was famous way before ESPN hopped on the train Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU64 10,122 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, WDEKC said: Just because you didn't know about him doesn't mean he was unknown. He's been youtube/internet famous since his sophomore season. The truly great or entertaining players don't need a college to enhance their brand. A accept that for the "truly great"....problem is we don't know who the truly great are until they play against some real competition. Every year we see guaranteed one and done kids sitting on the bench most games....and nobody lining up to buy their shoes or shirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDEKC 187 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 1 minute ago, AU64 said: A accept that for the "truly great"....problem is we don't know who the truly great are until they play against some real competition. Every year we see guaranteed one and done kids sitting on the bench most games....and nobody lining up to buy their shoes or shirts. There are busts of all kinds at every level. How is your scenario any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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