Moore or Jones?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, aubearcat said:

Thank you for your honesty. As an opposing view, I believe that equal protection begins at life ( because if not, that says that some life is more equal than other) which of course I believe is at conception. Also, when you commit a crime, ignorance is not an excuse so when you take a chance an do said crime, you're taking the chance at all the penalties that may arise from it.

Fair enough.  I see both sides of the argument and don't begrudge your stance. 

I also think that many of the groups advocating anti-abortion are doing little to help slow down abortion rates.  Data has shown that contraception education, economic independence, and other factors all work to preventing unwanted pregnancies.  In fact, it's often pro-choice groups that are pushing these ideas, which just baffles the hell out of me that opposition groups wouldn't join in.

However, I think that us as country continually fighting over this argument which has been settled case law for over 40 years is a waste of time, particularly when we have so many other issues that could actually be resolved with reasonable and rational talk.

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

I do not understand how a child who can sense pain, who can respond to a person's voice, who can survive outside the womb would be a viable candidate for being killed to anyone.  Note, I'm just going on what you've said here.  You give no qualifiers such as the mother's life being in danger if she attempts delivery, or the child being born with a severe congenital defect that would make it so it won't survive long after birth or anything of the sort.  Literally going by your statement above, you are perfectly fine with it being legal for a child that is full term being exterminated for any reason.

Is this an accurate description of your view?

I think you take things far too literal here (as I've found most anti-abortion advocates do).  The question at hand was when does equal protection kick in.  I don't think a fetus deserves the same full protections as a functioning, full-born child.  Just like you don't understand this stance, I don't understand how people can tell women what to do with their bodies or lives.  It's not someone else's place to do that.

Side note:  How in the hell did a thread on Moore vs Jones turn into another abortion thread?  We literally had this conversation 2 or 3 months ago.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 minute ago, Brad_ATX said:

Side note:  How in the hell did a thread on Moore vs Jones turn into another abortion thread?  We literally had this conversation 2 or 3 months ago.

Probably because it (among other things) is why more people didn't just change their vote to Jones and he's not up by 40 points in the polls.  The Alabama Democratic Party had mailed this one in, tripped over their own dicks and somehow have come out lucky.  If Jones were even somewhat moderate on things like abortion it would be a cakewalk.  As it is, WSFA released a poll today with Moore holding a slim 2-point lead that's within the margin of error statistically.  If the Democrats would read the electorate better they could be somewhat competitive here on a regular basis.  They just don't seem to care.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

53 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Probably because it (among other things) is why more people didn't just change their vote to Jones and he's not up by 40 points in the polls.  The Alabama Democratic Party had mailed this one in, tripped over their own dicks and somehow have come out lucky.  If Jones were even somewhat moderate on things like abortion it would be a cakewalk.  As it is, WSFA released a poll today with Moore holding a slim 2-point lead that's within the margin of error statistically.  If the Democrats would read the electorate better they could be somewhat competitive here on a regular basis.  They just don't seem to care.

I think that's because Alabama Dems are basicly conservative and Jones doesn't make that cut.

[aubearcat 2,136]

Well I’m not beholden to party. Like I said earlier in the thread, I’m not voting for a candidate because they’re pro-life, I’ll vote for the pro-life candidate that I believe is worthy of my vote. If Walt Maddox breaks with the national Democratic Party and says that he’ll work to protect life from conception to natural death and will work to enact laws that do so, he’ll get serious consideration from me. 

[homersapien 11,357]

9 hours ago, AUcivE09 said:

I can't vote for a guy who will go to DC and fall right in line with every other democrat up there voting "no" on everything and drag heels on nominations. I am voting for Moore with the hope that the senate refuses to seat him which then falls back on Kay Ivey to nominate Sessions replacement. Best case scenario I can see at the moment. I am honestly surprised this is not the thought being pushed by the republican party.

Moore is not the "moral" candidate, but he serves as a "yes" vote who will not be on any committees IF he makes it. The guy has basically been neutered and is done for after 2020 (if not sooner). The women have already won regardless of whether or not he gets elected. I am voting for what is best for my family and hoping to send a vote to DC, whether Moore or someone else, that reflects what I want to see happen.

Seriously?

(I waited to reply because I wanted to give you some time to re-think this.)

[homersapien 11,357]

7 hours ago, aubearcat said:

Well, I believe a parent shouldn’t be forced to vaccinate their children. Also, unless you get a booster every few years, you are no longer vaccinated. So anyway..,

Does that mean you reject the science behind vaccination?

[homersapien 11,357]

9 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

Amen

"I am voting for Moore with the hope that the senate refuses to seat him which then falls back on Kay Ivey to nominate Sessions replacement."

 

Amen!??     

[homersapien 11,357]

On 11/20/2017 at 9:28 AM, NolaAuTiger said:

you completely missed my point.

At what time do rights attach to the "thing," which i call a baby, inside the mothers womb? At what point does value attach? Conception, or some later point? It would seems as though, by default, rights/value attach at conception. But obviously this isn't true for you because if it was, you simply couldn't not maintain the rhetoric that makes abortion all about the woman and not about the living "baby" inside of her that's actually being terminated. So please, inform me. What time do fundamental rights and value attach? Because if it attaches prior to abortion, then the reasoning becomes analogous with three-fifths compromise or Nazi-Germany - not only that one group's rights and values trump the others, but the others are counted as less than human, and thus inhumane treatment is permissible. 

And no, it's not "compelling" anything, its protecting the rights of the unborn. 

I am not going to argue the dynamic of when a fetus develops individual rights (becomes a "baby" if you prefer). 

I will concede that the question of "life"  is an open question that is not adequately resolved by any point in the gestation cycle. (After all, it's simply a matter of time and engineering before a fertilized egg can be brought to term, ex-vivo.)  

My position is that, regardless of whenever that happens,  the diploid / zygote / blastosphere / fetus / baby remains subordinate to the woman's right of self determination.  

I understand how and why you might disagree. And I do appreciate the arguments against my position but, that is still my position. Mother comes first.  Even if you could demonstrably prove that life begins at conception, mother comes first. (That's not to say I wouldn't agree to reasonable compromises/restriction regarding the regulation of abortions.)   

If my basic position seems unnaturally cruel to you, consider that our culture has no problem with bombing or burning children during the course of executing our foreign policy.  Such cruelity is arguably "evil" and it certainly should be avoided, but there's nothing particularly "unnatural" about it. It's the Amerian way.  Hell, it's the human way, for that matter.

Titan and I have had many debates on this topic. Frankly, I am not sure I can restate my position any better than I did in our last such discussion, so I don't plan to re-try.    

I am traveling to Birmingham for the holidays and when I get back I will try to find the link to that discussion for you. Until then, I will have only my phone (or my sister's crappy computer) so I won't be able to respond with more than a sentence or two if at all. 

Meanwhile, War Eagle and Beat Bama!

[aubearcat 2,136]

8 hours ago, homersapien said:

Does that mean you reject the science behind vaccination?

We’ve had this discussion in the other thread. 

[AUcivE09 582]

10 hours ago, homersapien said:

Seriously?

(I waited to reply because I wanted to give you some time to re-think this.)

I really don't care if they do - but I hope they do. Voting for Jones does me no good. It would just be another "no" vote to tax reform or conservative judicial appointments. What choice do I have? Vote against myself or vote for the flawed human who will at least vote how I want.

Considering the nature of people who typically post here I should have written that statement a little better. I am not "Only" voting for Moore with that hope - I am voting for Moore because of what I want hoping that they refuse to seat him and the Kay can appoint someone else who will still vote the way I want and who we could all potentially stomach a little better.

I think this answers both you and Titan.

[alexava 6,973]

17 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I do not understand how a child who can sense pain, who can respond to a person's voice, who can survive outside the womb would be a viable candidate for being killed to anyone.  Note, I'm just going on what you've said here.  You give no qualifiers such as the mother's life being in danger if she attempts delivery, or the child being born with a severe congenital defect that would make it so it won't survive long after birth or anything of the sort.  Literally going by your statement above, you are perfectly fine with it being legal for a child that is full term being exterminated for any reason.

Is this an accurate description of your view?

If a woman is pregnant and chooses to carry the child then you are murdering two people. If she doesn’t want to be pregnant she can abort within a reasonable time table and it’s non of anyone else’s business. This is how it is no need to change anything. 

[alexava 6,973]

15 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Probably because it (among other things) is why more people didn't just change their vote to Jones and he's not up by 40 points in the polls.  The Alabama Democratic Party had mailed this one in, tripped over their own dicks and somehow have come out lucky.  If Jones were even somewhat moderate on things like abortion it would be a cakewalk.  As it is, WSFA released a poll today with Moore holding a slim 2-point lead that's within the margin of error statistically.  If the Democrats would read the electorate better they could be somewhat competitive here on a regular basis.  They just don't seem to care.

I somewhat agree. Sadly 

[aubearcat 2,136]

11 hours ago, homersapien said:

I am not going to argue the dynamic of when a fetus develops individual rights (becomes a "baby" if you prefer). 

I will concede that the question of "life"  is an open question that is not adequately resolved by any point in the gestation cycle. (After all, it's simply a matter of time and engineering before a fertilized egg can be brought to term, ex-vivo.)  

My position is that, regardless of whenever that happens,  the diploid / zygote / blastosphere / fetus / baby remains subordinate to the woman's right of self determination.  

I understand how and why you might disagree. And I do appreciate the arguments against my position but, that is still my position. Mother comes first.  Even if you could demonstrably prove that life begins at conception, mother comes first. (That's not to say I wouldn't agree to reasonable compromises/restriction regarding the regulation of abortions.)   

If my basic position seems unnaturally cruel to you, consider that our culture has no problem with bombing or burning children during the course of executing our foreign policy.  Such cruelity is arguably "evil" and it certainly should be avoided, but there's nothing particularly "unnatural" about it. It's the Amerian way.  Hell, it's the human way, for that matter.

Titan and I have had many debates on this topic. Frankly, I am not sure I can restate my position any better than I did in our last such discussion, so I don't plan to re-try.    

I am traveling to Birmingham for the holidays and when I get back I will try to find the link to that discussion for you. Until then, I will have only my phone (or my sister's crappy computer) so I won't be able to respond with more than a sentence or two if at all. 

Meanwhile, War Eagle and Beat Bama!

War Damn Eagle ?! Happy Thanksgiving ?!

[DKW 86 7,419]

17 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Probably because it (among other things) is why more people didn't just change their vote to Jones and he's not up by 40 points in the polls.  The Alabama Democratic Party had mailed this one in, tripped over their own dicks and somehow have come out lucky.  If Jones were even somewhat moderate on things like abortion it would be a cakewalk.  As it is, WSFA released a poll today with Moore holding a slim 2-point lead that's within the margin of error statistically.  If the Democrats would read the electorate better they could be somewhat competitive here on a regular basis.  They just don't seem to care.

Its why we have to Reform the ADP. Right now, we have a one party political situation here in the State of Alabama and that is how we are getting nutjobs like Moore elected.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

16 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Its why we have to Reform the ADP. Right now, we have a one party political situation here in the State of Alabama and that is how we are getting nutjobs like Moore elected.

Seriously.  The last time a Democrat won the presidential race in Alabama was 1976 - Carter over Ford.  The last time the Democrats won a Senate seat in Alabama was 1992 - 25 years ago.  And it was Richard Shelby who would flip to the Republicans before his next election.  A conservative Democrat.  The time before that was Howell Heflin in 1990, and Heflin was a conservative Democrat too.  Most of Heflin's positions, at least on social issues, would in fact put him firmly in the Republican party now.

I mean, read the room, people.  If they ran a conservative Democrat, I think they'd have had a puncher's chance against Moore straight up without the scandal breaking.  With it, it would be a runaway for the Dems.

If they lose this race, they'll blame dingbat fundamentalists voting for a pedophile.  And it'll have some merit.  But it won't be the full picture.  They'll need to take a look in the damn mirror because they'll own at least as much of the blame themselves.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Hence Reform. Worley and Reed are sssoooo out of touch with reality.

A one party state is going to lead to bad things. When my ballot here locally had like 12+ non-contested races, it really kind of scared me. That means that Republican Primary voters are effectively electing almost all the local leadership.

[AUFAN78 3,894]

6 hours ago, AUcivE09 said:

I really don't care if they do - but I hope they do. Voting for Jones does me no good. It would just be another "no" vote to tax reform or conservative judicial appointments. What choice do I have? Vote against myself or vote for the flawed human who will at least vote how I want.

Considering the nature of people who typically post here I should have written that statement a little better. I am not "Only" voting for Moore with that hope - I am voting for Moore because of what I want hoping that they refuse to seat him and the Kay can appoint someone else who will still vote the way I want and who we could all potentially stomach a little better.

I think this answers both you and Titan.

Nothing wrong with that. It is your right after all. And don't let some sissy ass liberal tell you differently. 

[AUcivE09 582]

15 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Nothing wrong with that. It is your right after all. And don't let some sissy ass liberal tell you differently. 

FWIW - the last part of your statement is what has the sides clashing. There are some liberals I have a great deal of respect for and make some valid points - even on message boards. Take DKW - I love reading his posts. I don't necessarily agree with everything, but I could have a great sit down with him. Titan probably falls more in line with my preferences, but has the tact of Metafour sometimes - still he makes good points =).  Even BigBen and USN are guys I can respect and take the time to read. Don't let people like Homer/Raptor/WarTiger make you bitter (or people like them in real life). Some are just hell bent in their ways and only looking to make people mad. It doesn't make me happy to vote for Moore - but people have lost sight of the fact we are voting for someone to be our vote on the senate floor. People can tell me differently all they want - and I will listen, but I will not vote on feelings and emotion. Let alone be bullied in to something. It is a great strategy for college kids and the likes, but for adults with a mind of their own it is laughable.

Moore's social/political life are over after Dec 12 whether he wins or not. The guy will wear this badge the rest of his life. Losing this election does nothing more for the accusers. 

[AUcivE09 582]

Im the last one at my office, bored, and making my 3rd post of the day on the Political forum.........what has my life come to?!?! 

Happy Thanksgiving and War Eagle Y'all! 

[AUFAN78 3,894]

23 minutes ago, AUcivE09 said:

FWIW - the last part of your statement is what has the sides clashing. There are some liberals I have a great deal of respect for and make some valid points - even on message boards. Take DKW - I love reading his posts. I don't necessarily agree with everything, but I could have a great sit down with him. Titan probably falls more in line with my preferences, but has the tact of Metafour sometimes - still he makes good points =).  Even BigBen and USN are guys I can respect and take the time to read. Don't let people like Homer/Raptor/WarTiger make you bitter (or people like them in real life). Some are just hell bent in their ways and only looking to make people mad. It doesn't make me happy to vote for Moore - but people have lost sight of the fact we are voting for someone to be our vote on the senate floor. People can tell me differently all they want - and I will listen, but I will not vote on feelings and emotion. Let alone be bullied in to something. It is a great strategy for college kids and the likes, but for adults with a mind of their own it is laughable.

Moore's social/political life are over after Dec 12 whether he wins or not. The guy will wear this badge the rest of his life. Losing this election does nothing more for the accusers. 

 People here clash for many reasons. But don't confuse me with one that takes much in this forum seriously. Nor should you. I simply come for the entertainment. 

Trust me, Homer, Raptor and WarTiger, while equals in their own right, in no way shape or form make me bitter. On second thought, I can't recall interacting with WarTiger at all. Ban him! 

 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, AUcivE09 said:

FWIW - the last part of your statement is what has the sides clashing. There are some liberals I have a great deal of respect for and make some valid points - even on message boards. Take DKW - I love reading his posts. I don't necessarily agree with everything, but I could have a great sit down with him. Titan probably falls more in line with my preferences, but has the tact of Metafour sometimes - still he makes good points =).  Even BigBen and USN are guys I can respect and take the time to read. Don't let people like Homer/Raptor/WarTiger make you bitter (or people like them in real life). Some are just hell bent in their ways and only looking to make people mad. It doesn't make me happy to vote for Moore - but people have lost sight of the fact we are voting for someone to be our vote on the senate floor. People can tell me differently all they want - and I will listen, but I will not vote on feelings and emotion. Let alone be bullied in to something. It is a great strategy for college kids and the likes, but for adults with a mind of their own it is laughable.

Moore's social/political life are over after Dec 12 whether he wins or not. The guy will wear this badge the rest of his life. Losing this election does nothing more for the accusers. 

I actually disagree with you here.  If Moore wins (and I think he will), I think he holds that Senate seat for as long as he wants.  People in Alabama will forget all about this by the time 2020 rolls around.

[TexasTiger 12,828]

21 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I actually disagree with you here.  If Moore wins (and I think he will), I think he holds that Senate seat for as long as he wants.  People in Alabama will forget all about this by the time 2020 rolls around.

If he wins they've forgot it already. Or just don't care. Really pathetic.

[alexava 6,973]

9 hours ago, AUcivE09 said:

I really don't care if they do - but I hope they do. Voting for Jones does me no good. It would just be another "no" vote to tax reform or conservative judicial appointments. What choice do I have? Vote against myself or vote for the flawed human who will at least vote how I want.

Considering the nature of people who typically post here I should have written that statement a little better. I am not "Only" voting for Moore with that hope - I am voting for Moore because of what I want hoping that they refuse to seat him and the Kay can appoint someone else who will still vote the way I want and who we could all potentially stomach a little better.

I think this answers both you and Titan.

You want to elect a man the rest of the senate will deem unfit to serve the position? What does that say about Alabama? And we wonder  Why we are 49th in every ranking except football. 

 

War damn eagle 

[TexasTiger 12,828]

2 hours ago, alexava said:

You want to elect a man the rest of the senate will deem unfit to serve the position? What does that say about Alabama? And we wonder  Why we are 49th in every ranking except football. 

 

War damn eagle 

We'll leap Mississippi on this one.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

If he wins they've forgot it already. Or just don't care. Really pathetic.

Forgotten what, Tex? Unproven allegations?