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aubiefifty

difference between Grimes and Hand

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Biggest difference between J.B. Grimes and Herb Hand for Auburn lies in the details

Updated 7:03 AM; Posted 7:00 AM

Auburn offensive line coach J.B. Grimes works with offensive linemen Tuesday, March 6, 2018, during spring practice at the Auburn Athletic Complex in Auburn, Ala. (Julie Bennett/jbennett@al.com)(Julie Bennett)

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By Tom Green

tgreen@al.com

As Auburn prepared for the start of spring practice last month, new offensive line coach J.B. Grimes pored through hours of film, reviewing the performance of the Tigers' offensive line as a whole, and particularly each of his returning players from last season.

When Grimes got through with it, he met with the offensive line and gave his players an earnest review of their 2017 performance.

"He was like, 'OK, this is what we were terrible at, and this is what we need to get better at,'" guard Mike Horton said.

So what was the most glaring critique Grimes had of the line? According to Horton, it was all in the details.

"Coach Grimes really loves details," Horton said. "He focuses on that and he felt like we weren't really detail-oriented last year."

Grimes, who returned to Auburn as offensive line coach following two years away from the program, has made that his primary focus this spring as he replaces the man who once replaced him, Herb Hand, and tries to identify the Tigers' five-man starting unit for next season.

Grimes is different than Hand in many aspects, including stature and personality. Their biggest difference when it comes to coaching, however, lies in the details.

"Coach Grimes is bringing a whole new aspect to the game," defensive tackle Derrick Brown said. "He definitely is just a completely different person than Coach Hand."

Auburn hopes to settle on starting OL by end of spring

Auburn must replace four starters along the offensive line and will take a different approach under new position coach J.B. Grimes.

As Horton said, Grimes is very focused on teaching the fine points of playing offensive line, nailing down the details of technique and footwork in both run blocking and pass protection. Grimes wants his offensive linemen to be the masters of their position, each one focusing on one primary role this spring.

Hand, on the other hand, enjoyed teaching versatility in his line. Players cross-trained at multiple positions -- which paid dividends for the Tigers last season when Austin Golson started at four different positions and played all five -- so that many could be plugged in at various holes and still know and execute the scheme..

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"(Grimes) focuses on details extremely well, so we focus on details and then we worry about scheme later," Horton said. "Spring is just a time to grow and get better."

Auburn coach Gus Malzahn said the two assistants, both of whom worked with him at other schools prior to reuniting on the Plains, also use "some different terminologies" when teaching the position.

"J.B. has his own brand of terminology," Malzahn said. "The older guys, some of the older guys were actually here with him. It is just a matter of the guys getting used to his approach, his terminology. Some of the techniques are a little bit different. The guys have responded very well. I feel real good about -- I have said this before. J.B. is one of the better teachers, just true teachers, that I have had in 28 or 29 years of coaching. He is a true teacher."

That's where Grimes' transition back to Auburn should be easier, as several of the Tigers' offensive linemen were previously coached by him when he was with the program in 2015, including Horton, center Kaleb Kim and guard Marquel Harrell -- all of whom are expected to start in 2018.

"Since he already coached me I know what to expect from him so it hasn't really been a weird transition for me," Horton said. "Maybe for some of the other guys, but for me and Marquel, we already know him. Bailey (Sharp) and Tyler Carr, they came in early, so they already know him, too. For us it's not really a transition." 

Those veterans know what to expect from Grimes, as well as how he operates and what he demands from his linemen. Horton said Grimes is the "same old guy" he was when he last coached at Auburn -- a thorough teacher who enjoys cracking jokes and keeping his guys loose before they take the field -- and all of the veterans were glad when they found out he was returning.

'I ain't going to lie to you; I didn't think I was going to see him again," Horton said, "but it's good to have him back."

Tom Green is an Auburn beat reporter for Alabama Media Group. Follow him on Twitter @Tomas_Verde.

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Great thread, fifty.

 

As for the article, I’m so glad Herb is gone.

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11 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

Hand, on the other hand, enjoyed teaching versatility in his line. Players cross-trained at multiple positions -- which paid dividends for the Tigers last season when Austin Golson started at four different positions and played all five -- so that many could be plugged in at various holes and still know and execute the scheme..

Maybe if Hand had been more focused on coaching up Tega we could have left Golson at center all year.

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The oline needs good fundamental coaching and they'll get it now.

 

 

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Based on Twitter it looks like Herb is racking up O line guys at Texas.  Where was that at Auburn?  Oline wasn’t a problem last time Grimes was here so hopefully he can get that solid again.  No more 12 sack games!  

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11 hours ago, The Plainsman said:

I would like a comparison on their recruiting prowess.   It may not be as wide of a gap as we thnk??

Hand has ten times the personality but it never really paid dividends on the recruiting trail. What we lose in recruiting is easily accounted for in development.

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11 hours ago, The Plainsman said:

I would like a comparison on their recruiting prowess.   It may not be as wide of a gap as we thnk??

 

18 minutes ago, keesler said:

The oline needs good fundamental coaching and they'll get it now.

There were complaints about this hire because of a perceived missed opportunity for a recruiting upgrade moreso than it being a recruiting downgrade, I think. But I still think that Gus pictures this team in a window and it's hard to argue. We have a QB and a defense. OL and safety are the only big questions marks. They are big questions, indeed, but might as well go for the guy who we think is going to get the most out of them this season. IMO. 

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2 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

Recruiting vs Development/Coaching...

Personally I'd rather see 5 "decent" O-Linemen play to their potential and gel as a unit vs 5 "5*'s" under-achieve, under-develop & and mix-n-match all season giving up record number of sacks in important games and getting punked by the like of ucf...

But that's just me.

:cheers:

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9 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

Recruiting vs Development/Coaching...

Personally I'd rather see 5 "decent" O-Linemen play to their potential and gel as a unit vs 5 "5*'s" under-achieve, under-develop & and mix-n-match all season giving up record number of sacks in important games and getting punked by the likes of ucf...

But that's just me.

 

6 minutes ago, gr82be said:

:cheers:

Is this seat taken?

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21 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

Recruiting vs Development/Coaching...

Personally I'd rather see 5 "decent" O-Linemen play to their potential and gel as a unit vs 5 "5*'s" under-achieve, under-develop & and mix-n-match all season giving up record number of sacks in important games and getting punked by the likes of ucf...

But that's just me.

I agree in general with your "decent" O-linemen statement and by decent that is three star.  For every one of those, you need a couple 4 and 5 star OL.   Unless you have an OL coach that is just amazing.  You always need talent and good coaches can bring out the talent.  

 

wde

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Met and jawed with Coach Grimes at one of the local hangouts (not a bar) on several occasions during his previous tenure. I can not imagine any player not wanting to play and learn from the man. One of the more approachable coaches we have had.

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If you can develop guys, recruits will follow.  That is how the Alabama powerhouse really started.  For this reason, is why I wholeheartedly believe we will turn the corner this year and next in signing elite LB's with T-Will's job he is doing.  I never understood why people did not like the Grime's hire in the first place.  Almost every former Auburn OL coached under him Tweeted out their excitement when J.B. was announced to return.  Pretty good referral if you ask me.

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We knew what we were getting with Herb. He was bad at penn state and mediocre at Auburn. Talent will only cover you so much. I  will always lean to the developer 

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1 hour ago, AUIH1 said:

I agree in general with your "decent" O-linemen statement and by decent that is three star.  For every one of those, you need a couple 4 and 5 star OL.   Unless you have an OL coach that is just amazing.  You always need talent and good coaches can bring out the talent.  

 

wde

I agree with you on the minimum "*" talent as a football program such as our beloved Auburn Tigers should never even be recruiting below 3* unless there's some freakish diamond in the rough somewhere.  3*-4* is what I mean by "decent".

I'd rather have 3-4 "3*" and 1-2 "4*" who know what they're doing and can gel as a unit than have 5 "5*" who have all the talent in the world but are lost and uncomfortable in their position.

I believe Grimes can at least get the best out of what AU currently has on the roster.  That's a start and something Hand was apparently incapable of.

As far as "stop gap" measures go, they could do much worse.

Edited by AUsince72
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So,

sleight of Hand vs Grimes-y details?

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I looked it up, and Grimes's '14 and '15 OL classes averaged 3.57 stars while Hand's '16 and '17 classes averaged 4 even. We signed 7 guys in those 2 classes with Grimes and 4 in the 2 classes with Hand. Hand had 1 5* and Grimes had none. I left out 2013 since that was a brand new administration and 2018 since Hand left unexpectedly after the season and before NSD. That may seem to favor Grimes since those classes are "his", but I think it's fair.

Other guys could more intelligently say how big a difference that is in terms of talent hauled in. My guess would be somewhere north of meaningless and south of significant. Probably worth pointing out that Grimes brought in more guys overall. Hand might have had more influence with other position groups when it came to recruiting, but that did nothing to improve our OL play. 

Sorry, just nerding out a bit. Going strictly by the level of talent that was recruited to play offensive line under each guy, I would venture a guess that Grimes could easily be a net win with superior coaching. (And my heart is even more optimistic than my head.)

 

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8 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

I looked it up, and Grimes's '14 and '15 OL classes averaged 3.57 stars while Hand's '16 and '17 classes averaged 4 even. We signed 7 guys in those 2 classes with Grimes and 4 in the 2 classes with Hand. Hand had 1 5* and Grimes had none. I left out 2013 since that was a brand new administration and 2018 since Hand left unexpectedly after the season and before NSD. That may seem to favor Grimes since those classes are "his", but I think it's fair.

Other guys could more intelligently say how big a difference that is in terms of talent hauled in. My guess would be somewhere north of meaningless and south of significant. Probably worth pointing out that Grimes brought in more guys overall. Hand might have had more influence with other position groups when it came to recruiting, but that did nothing to improve our OL play. 

Sorry, just nerding out a bit. Going strictly by the level of talent that was recruited to play offensive line under each guy, I would venture a guess that Grimes could easily be a net win with superior coaching. (And my heart is even more optimistic than my head.)

 

Appreciate you backing up the majority of your posts with stats and research.  (I like numbers) You must be an Analyst by profession.

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1 minute ago, atl-tiger said:

Appreciate you backing up the majority of your posts with stats and research.  (I like numbers) You must be an Analyst by profession.

Lol. Just been around here a long time and have made myself look foolish many times with loudmouth posts that were quickly proven to be inaccurate. Validity eventually became a goal (maybe not always the goal, lol). @StatTiger has also been inspiring. For example, he took a look at the experience level of our roster before 2015 and told us to pump the brakes on our national title predictions. He didn't predict Jeremy Johnson's, uh, situation, but even a good quarterback probably wouldn't have made that a championship team.

It's interesting how often one's assumptions are challenged by research! Anyway, I do have analyst in my job title. ATL, Auburn fan... do I know you??? Lol.

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14 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

I looked it up, and Grimes's '14 and '15 OL classes averaged 3.57 stars while Hand's '16 and '17 classes averaged 4 even. We signed 7 guys in those 2 classes with Grimes and 4 in the 2 classes with Hand. Hand had 1 5* and Grimes had none. I left out 2013 since that was a brand new administration and 2018 since Hand left unexpectedly after the season and before NSD. That may seem to favor Grimes since those classes are "his", but I think it's fair.

Other guys could more intelligently say how big a difference that is in terms of talent hauled in. My guess would be somewhere north of meaningless and south of significant. Probably worth pointing out that Grimes brought in more guys overall. Hand might have had more influence with other position groups when it came to recruiting, but that did nothing to improve our OL play. 

Sorry, just nerding out a bit. Going strictly by the level of talent that was recruited to play offensive line under each guy, I would venture a guess that Grimes could easily be a net win with superior coaching. (And my heart is even more optimistic than my head.)

Not going to say this if more intelligent than what you presented, but the big question to me is, of the members of those classes, who ended up living up to or surpassing their star ranking and who ended up just being a name on the recruiting roster.

2014:
X - I'd say he played at about a 3-star level for us
Braden - well surpassed his 4-stars

2015:
Kim - TBD
Harrell - lived up to his 4-stars
Carr - TBD
Sharp - TBD
Horton - Surpassed his 3-stars

2016: 
Hamm - TBD

2017: 
Ashley - TBD
Brahms - TBD
Troxell - TBD

Based on that, this year will be the tale of the tape. Ashley, Hamm, Brahms, and Kim all have had buzz around them this Spring. If the majority of Hand's guys live up to their billing, I'd have to give the edge to him, but if they flame out, Grimes brought in 2 guys who were better than advertised and two who lived up to their billing. Here's hoping Hand wins, because we need his guys to be good.

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8 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Lol. Just been around here a long time and have made myself look foolish many times with loudmouth posts that were quickly proven to be inaccurate. Validity eventually became a goal (maybe not always the goal, lol). @StatTiger has also been inspiring. For example, he took a look at the experience level of our roster before 2015 and told us to pump the brakes on our national title predictions. He didn't predict Jeremy Johnson's, uh, situation, but even a good quarterback probably wouldn't have made that a championship team.

It's interesting how often one's assumptions are challenged by research! Anyway, I do have analyst in my job title. ATL, Auburn fan... do I know you??? Lol.

Understood, I enjoy stat's post as well.

Haha maybe!  I'm an analyst as well for that big beverage company based in Atlanta.

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Just now, lionheartkc said:

If the majority of Hand's guys live up to their billing, I'd have to give the edge to him, but if they flame out, Grimes brought in 2 guys who were better than advertised and two who lived up to their billing. 

But the conversation is difficult, because Herb raised JB's boys for a couple years and JB will raise Herb's (more or less). Also, did Hand get a bump with Ashley from GRob, who... Jeff Grimes? Who recruited that guy?... recruited and JB coached?

Too many moving parts. My main point was that the talent is close enough to equivalent that we probably need not fear a meaningful drop-off in OL recruiting under Grimes, and that it is reasonable to expect better overall OL play than we would have gotten. I'm not saying people *should* expect it, although I do.

Now, when it comes to recruiting other position groups, I'm guessing that Grimes will be very little help whereas Hand might have been more useful. I really have no idea. I think I read somewhere that some of the other coaches would've appreciated more of an assist from the replacement. 

 

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