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RunInRed

Baptisms at the Athletics Complex

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4 minutes ago, Tiger said:

So believing in those previously mentioned things and also doing good will get you to heaven? That's the same as most religions I think, is it not?

Definitely not. The Bible is very clear that good works alone won't get you to Heaven.

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1 minute ago, Proud Tiger said:

Definitely not. The Bible is very clear that good works alone won't get you to Heaven.

Well obviously you can't go somewhere you don't believe in -- so doing good alone won't get you to a Christian heaven if you don't believe in a Christian God, I get that. But you're saying a a Jewish person, or atheist person, or whatever belief system someone subscribes to they can do good work but won't get to Christian heaven? Isn't that like all religions though? Non-believers of religion X won't go to religion X's heaven? 

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9 minutes ago, Tiger said:

So believing in those previously mentioned things and also doing good will get you to heaven? That's the same as most religions I think, is it not?

Not trying to sound snarky, seriously asking because, @toddc's comment confused me a little

Most Protestant Christians believe in the doctrine of Sola Fide (by faith alone) that we are saved only by believing in Jesus Christ and not by good deeds (or 'works') as described in Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 3:28.

Ephesians 2:8-10:   For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

Romans 3:28: For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

 

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20 minutes ago, Tiger said:

So believing in those previously mentioned things and also doing good will get you to heaven?

Nope. Also, Proud is one poster. Quit getting defensive over one poster. 

Edited by aujeff11

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7 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Well obviously you can't go somewhere you don't believe in -- so doing good alone won't get you to a Christian heaven if you don't believe in a Christian God, I get that. But you're saying a a Jewish person, or atheist person, or whatever belief system someone subscribes to they can do good work but won't get to Christian heaven? Isn't that like all religions though? Non-believers of religion X won't go to religion X's heaven? 

I can't speak for all religions. But the Bible I take as God's word says in Ephesians 2:9..........For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.   There are many more verses throughout the NT saying the same thing.

Note: triangletiger beat me to it above.

Edited by Proud Tiger

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2 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Nope. Also, Proud is one poster with . Quit getting defensive over one poster. 

Ah you caught me before my edit! Not getting defensive at all I really hope none of my posts have been coming off that way

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19 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Well, here's the best I can do on short notice as it'd take a little longer to ask family and also I don't particularly want to start a discussion about religion with any of my religious family members as that will make them think I am considering converting to Islam and I'd rather not open that door lol.

Unfortunately the thing with quoting just one verse from any  ancient holy book, context is key. And @McLoofuslink has some great insight on the context on that particular verse and the surrounding verses. There is an interpretation section there that touches on the surrounding verses which will give some more clarity on this for you.

And this is the best way to describe not only this particular verse, but the verses leading up to and following it to give you full context of what exactly the Quran is talking about at that moment:

"It was these hardened polytheists in Arabia, who would accept nothing other than the expulsion of the Muslims or their reversion to paganism, and who repeatedly broke their treaties, that the Muslims were ordered to treat in the same way - to fight them or expel them….Even with such an enemy Muslims were not simply ordered to pounce on them and reciprocate by breaking the treaty themselves; instead, an ultimatum was issued, giving the enemy notice, that after the four sacred months mentioned in 9:5 above, the Muslims would wage war on them. The main clause of the sentence "kill the polytheists" is singled out by some Western scholars to represent the Islamic attitude to war; even some Muslims take this view and allege that this verse abrogated other verses on war. This is pure fantasy, isolating and de-contextualising a small part of a sentence. The full picture is given in 9:1-15, which gives many reasons for the order to fight the polytheists. They continuously broke their agreements and aided others against the Muslims, they started hostilities against the Muslims, barred others from becoming Muslims, “expelled” Muslims from the Holy Mosque and even from their own homes. At least eight times the passage mentions their misdeeds against the Muslims. Consistent with restrictions on war elsewhere in the Qur'an, the immediate context of this "Sword Verse" exempts such polytheists who do not break their agreements and who keep the peace with the Muslims [9:7]. It orders that those enemies seeking safe conduct should be protected and delivered to the place of safety they seek [9:6]. The whole of this context to v. 5, with all its restrictions, is ignored by those who simply isolate one part of a sentence to build their theory of war in Islam on what is termed "The Sword Verse" even when the words word does not occur anywhere in the Qur'an. (Muhammad Abdul Haleem, “Understanding The Qur’an” {I.B. Tauris & Co Ltd 2005}, pp. 65-66, “Jihad: a war against all Non-Muslims or not? By Kevin Abdullah Kareem”)

 

Unfortunately you can cherry pick verses from all the holy books and kind of apply it without context in today's world and have it look all kinds of screwed up. And it's unrealistic in a modern society to live literally by a holy book, there has just been too much change in the world for that to work and only a small percentage take the lessons from holy books to an extreme and trying to live directly by the book (or taking direct pieces out of context like the one you asked about and twisting in an evil way), hence why extremists of any belief system are the ones doing these terrible things

 

 

Would you say that extremist leaders in Islamic-majority areas who force non-Muslims (dhimmis) to pay a tax (Jizya) for following a different belief system are misinterpreting the Quran (Surah 9:29)?

 

Surah 9:29: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

   

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8 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Ah you caught me before my edit! Not getting defensive at all I really hope none of my posts have been coming off that way

No problem. You and I are good. Everyone in the whole thread has been great with  1 or 2 exceptions.

Edited by Proud Tiger
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4 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Ah you caught me before my edit! Not getting defensive at all I really hope none of my posts have been coming off that way

They haven't. At all. 

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29 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

They haven't. At all. 

Ok pumpkin. 

35 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Ah you caught me before my edit! Not getting defensive at all I really hope none of my posts have been coming off that way

The answer to your questions seemed obvious but maybe I’m wrong. Obviously being a member of the good works team and believing in Jesus do not give a person a first class ticket to Heaven. You can look up my posts on this very thread regarding your religion as well just to ensure you don’t have to be defensive with me on the subject. With that said,  I don’t even know what good works has to do with going to Heaven right off the bat. You cannot judge a Christian by their good works. As I have also said before, I’m basically a Christian that is synonymous to being a jack-Mormon as I’m not highly devout at the moment. With that said, the criteria to the Biblical Heaven that has been taught to me consist of -repentance, -the belief that Jesus is Lord, -and the profession of faith. Repentance and the profession of faith are key here. Being a member of the good works team is not a requirement although sometimes it just comes naturally through faith- The Good Samaritan, Loving thy neighbor, feeding the poor, etc. Tithing isn’t going to send anybody to Heaven no matter how much is graciously handed over. Good works without the faith is pointless if one wants to go to Heaven. 

Lastly, Even the devil believes that Jesus is Lord. Believing doesn’t cut it either. 

Wirhout further ado:

James 2:14-18 ESV / 454 helpful votes  

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Edited by aujeff11
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7 minutes ago, triangletiger said:

Would you say that extremist leaders in Islamic-majority areas who force non-Muslims (dhimmis) to pay a tax (Jizya) for following a different belief system are misinterpreting the Quran (Surah 9:29)?

 

Surah 9:29: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

   

If anyone is actually imposing this type of tax in 2018 that's just idiotic. It falls in line with what I said earlier about trying to literally live by any holy book in a modern age. Similar to the Bible saying a woman should be kept quiet and should never have authority over a man in Timothy 2:11, or that if a woman gives birth to a daughter she's unclean for 66 days as Leviticus 12:5 says, or Mark 12:5 saying if your brother dies and has no kids but is married you are to have sex with his wife and impregnate her, etc. These are all ridiculous notions in current times, and I consider the tax to be in line with every other holy book that's out there's commands that are to just be ignored in modern society.  Anyone who wants to implement that tax would be following the Quran too literally.

*Not trying to pick on the Bible but those are just as cherry picked at some of the verses you see thrown around to disparage Islam. And I'm willing to bet there is context given for each of these Bible verses that I mentioned that will make them less questionable just as there is for the verses from the Quran you posted. These books were just written way too long ago to put so much real-world worth into them today and they get wackier as time goes on from a practical standpoint. 

I know that sounds like I'm flatly anti-religion but I'm not. I can respect that the majority of people take the good lessons from their faith and ignore the sketchy ones that make no sense in the modern era.

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1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

I think this topic has gone far afield from its original intent.  So unless @RunInRed has any objections and wishes to move this back, it's migrating over to All Things Considered.

Thank God and Greyhound

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1 minute ago, Tiger said:

If anyone is actually imposing this type of tax in 2018 that's just idiotic. It falls in line with what I said earlier about trying to literally live by any holy book in a modern age. Similar to the Bible saying a woman should be kept quiet and should never have authority over a man in Timothy 2:11, or that if a woman gives birth to a daughter she's unclean for 66 days as Leviticus 12:5 says, or Mark 12:5 saying if your brother dies and has no kids but is married you are to have sex with his wife and impregnate her, etc. These are all ridiculous notions in current times, and I consider the tax to be in line with every other holy book that's out there's commands that are to just be ignored in modern society.  Anyone who wants to implement that tax would be following the Quran too literally.

*Not trying to pick on the Bible but those are just as cherry picked at some of the verses you see thrown around to disparage Islam. And I'm willing to bet there is context given for each of these Bible verses that I mentioned that will make them less questionable just as there is for the verses from the Quran you posted. These books were just written way too long ago to put so much real-world worth into them today and they get wackier as time goes on from a practical standpoint. 

I know that sounds like I'm flatly anti-religion but I'm not. I can respect that the majority of people take the good lessons from their faith and ignore the sketchy ones that make no sense in the modern era.

Many Christians will just laugh away the weird OT stuff- but not the stuff they like- and expect you to do the same, but are unwilling to extend that courtesy to other texts. 

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2 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Ok pumpkin. 

The answer to your questions seemed obvious but maybe I’m wrong. Obviously a member of the good works team and believing in Jesus doesn’t give a person a first class ticket to Heaven. You can look up my posts on this very thread regarding your religion as well just to ensure you don’t have to be defensive with me on the subject.With that sai,  I don’t even know what good works has to do with going to Heaven. As I have also said before, I’m basically a Christian that is synonymous to being a jack-Mormon as I’m not highly devout at the moment. With that said, the criteria to the Biblical Heaven that has been taught to me consist of repentance, the belief that Jesus is Lord, and the profession of faith. Repentance and the profession of faith are key here. Being a member of the good works team is not a requirement sometimes it just comes naturally through faith and- The Good Samaritan, Loving thy neighbor, feeding the poor, etc. Tithing isn’t going to send anybody to Heaven no matter how much is graciously handed over. Good works without the faith is pointless if one wants to go to Heaven. 

Lastly, Even the devil believes that Jesus is Lord. Believing doesn’t cut it either. 

Wirhout further ado:

James 2:14-18 ESV / 454 helpful votes  

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

This was a good, clear and concise reply. Thanks for the explanation and now I get it. I'm not sure how I was being defensive though.

Also "my religion"? I am agnostic...and maybe sometimes atheist lol. I am not a Muslim

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1 hour ago, Barnacle said:

Praise God! :-X

Note to self - read forward before posting.

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2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Many Christians will just laugh away the weird OT stuff- but not the stuff they like- and expect you to do the same, but are unwilling to extend that courtesy to other texts. 

Exactly.

The worst part is nobody actually knows. We are all guessing!

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Just now, Tiger said:

Exactly.

The worst part is nobody actually knows. We are all guessing!

All of these books were written by human beings. I think that gets lost sometimes. 

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1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

I was happy that you guys let it stick around as long as you did, and now I'm happy that it's moved. :)

 

In time for Holy Week, I can properly allow myself to participate (though catching up to relevance may take a minute).

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1 hour ago, toddc said:

I agree! Don’t think either side will change their beliefs, but it was awesome and civil beyond my wildest thought!

I suspect that there way more than two sides here.

Just sayin'

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9 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I'm not sure how I was being defensive though.

Nevermind.

 

10 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Also "my religion"? I am agnostic...and maybe sometimes atheist lol. I am not a Muslim

Kewl. Must’ve misunderstood.

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18 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Many Christians will just laugh away the weird OT stuff- but not the stuff they like- and expect you to do the same, but are unwilling to extend that courtesy to other texts. 

It’s because the God of the OT is much more for justice rather than the God of grace which is a depicted theme in the NT. Someone talked about can Christians be terrorist? You know I almost feel like that is in the eye of the beholder. Like your freedom fighter might be the next guy terrorist. We see that throughout history . I am sure the British thought the original colonist were terrorist rebelling against the king. I am sure the Canaanite thought the Hebrews were terrorist invading their land and killing their women and children in the sake of their faith. I often wonder what would be going through my mind if I lived back in those times knowing I am commanded to wipe out a host of people...I think that is a fair question to consider as a human being , even under the considerations of the Lord, who created us to be this way. Again, some Christians  don’t like to think about that stuff. They have no problem talking about grace , but fear talking about justice.

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27 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Exactly.

The worst part is nobody actually knows. We are all guessing!

The Faith part is important

in any belief system.

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On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 7:12 PM, aubiefifty said:

so someone disagrees with something they should move to another part of the country? has he brought in lawyers to stop any baptisms? he simply says he is not comfortable with it and you basically tell him.fine. move. what a classy statement.........

Sarcasm is not your strong point mr. super sensitive person (wouldn't want to risk offending you in case you're not sure of your gender)....

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28 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

All of these books were written by human beings. I think that gets lost sometimes. 

Careful with that one.

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