Jordan Rodgers on Stidham

[DAG 33,957]

But I am going to say this one more time , all this debating we have is going to be answered starting game 1. It is going to answer a lot of questions about JS and the coaching staff. In my strong opinion, the offense is going to struggle mightily against Washington. We have a young offensive line, who is talented. We have unknowns at the RB position and we might have injuries at the WR position to start off. Trust will be a big factor. JS is going to have to lead and teach. More importantly he is going to have to make some plays on his own. Whether that be throwing the ball in a tight window, buying more time in the pocket, checking out , etc , etc. Game planning won’t be enough in terms of playing teams with talent. It has to be sound , but those players got to make things happen when stuff breaks down.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

10 minutes ago, Zeek said:

Simply saying I can't stand doing the "hurry up" offense and our first play after a big play is a HB dive for 2 yards everytime. It's painfully predictable.

Sad thing is, I know why Gus does it, and it USED to work, but it doesn't anymore, and I don't know why he doesn't see that. He used to do it because it softened up the middle of the line making it easier to break off big runs in the fourth quarter. The problem now is that linemen have upped their conditioning to the point where you can pound them all game and they rarely get worn down. Hopefully with a 2nd year QB and 2nd year OC, we will have some options in the hurry-up first down... but I'm not holding my breath.

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 minute ago, lionheartkc said:

That's an interesting thing to think about. If a QB is not playing at his best because he doesn't "trust the play being called", what does that say about the QB? Why doesn't he trust it? Is it because he doesn't trust his blockers to protect him? If that's the issue, than I totally get it and I think we are addressing that. If, however, it's because he thinks it's the wrong call, then he needs to check himself, because choosing the play to call is not his job and he needs to trust the coaching staff. Not buying in to the system is a choice and if it is causing you to play below your ability then that is on you and no one else. It's also a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you go in thinking "this isn't the right thing to do" and don't execute because of it, then it becomes a bad call whether it really was or not. If, however, you trust what it being called, and execute it to your full potential, you might just find out that the coach was right all along.

Now I know some people are going to respond with "Gus doesn't trust his players/staff so why should they trust him?" to which I will answer, even if the first part is true, which is purely speculation, responding in kind is childish, petty, and guarantees that the team will never truly succeed. If that is the attitude we have going on inside the team, then we have bigger problems than I could have ever thought.

Agreed to blocking. I think you understand that point. 

To your next point. When you are dropping back time and time again, and either you are getting harassed or sacked in the backfield, or no one is open after running through the called progression - you start to get a little happy with your feet. You start to try and create things that aren't there. It's almost subconscious. A pattern starts to develop where you keep dropping back, keep standing tall and no one is open. Maybe you get sacked a couple times. Maybe you make a bad throw or two. It sticks with you, so you start to think "I'm not going to just keep sitting there, I need to try and make something happen". That's what I see with him. It's the frustration that develops when you've been executing the called plays time and time again, and the offense continues to go 3 and out. I don't have an issue with calling that undisciplined, but it has nothing to do with him needing to "check himself."

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 minute ago, Barnacle said:

Agreed to blocking. I think you understand that point. 

To your next point. When you are dropping back time and time again, and either you are getting harassed or sacked in the backfield, or no one is open after running through the called progression - you start to get a little happy with your feet. You start to try and create things that aren't there. It's almost subconscious. A pattern starts to develop where you keep dropping back, keep standing tall and no one is open. Maybe you get sacked a couple times. Maybe you make a bad throw or two. It sticks with you, so you start to think "I'm not going to just keep sitting there, I need to try and make something happen". That's what I see with him. It's the frustration that develops when you've been executing the called plays time and time again, and the offense continues to go 3 and out. I don't have an issue with calling that undisciplined, but it has nothing to do with him needing to "check himself."

I totally get you. Yes... when the line isn't doing their job and you're left to fend for yourself, it can totally break your game. I see that less as being a failing of the game plan/play calling and more as a failing of coaching before and between games by not having a key position on the team ready to play. Man I hope Grimes is the answer.

[DAG 33,957]

13 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Agreed to blocking. I think you understand that point. 

To your next point. When you are dropping back time and time again, and either you are getting harassed or sacked in the backfield, or no one is open after running through the called progression - you start to get a little happy with your feet. You start to try and create things that aren't there. It's almost subconscious. A pattern starts to develop where you keep dropping back, keep standing tall and no one is open. Maybe you get sacked a couple times. Maybe you make a bad throw or two. It sticks with you, so you start to think "I'm not going to just keep sitting there, I need to try and make something happen". That's what I see with him. It's the frustration that develops when you've been executing the called plays time and time again, and the offense continues to go 3 and out. I don't have an issue with calling that undisciplined, but it has nothing to do with him needing to "check himself."

The only issue I have with this is that it was not a pattern . Starting from game 1, he had happy feet. You could clearly see after being out for a year , the speed of the game wasn’t something he was not exactly ready for. Unfortunately for him he was facing Clemson which just exacerbated the situation . Now what I will say is throughout the season he got better with learning to keep his eyes up , although he still had that happy feet. He will run around and at least find Davis as an outlet. Of course , he still had times where he would tuck it and run into the sack as well. All I want to see him get better at is sliding feet prior to tucking it and having to reset or even running around hoping to find a Davis. That’s simply it. I get sometimes you just have to tuck it and go or bite the bullet. But there are also times where he could’ve slid his feet and got out of some pressure situations . For all the crap I gave SW he did that very well.

Edit: I also watched the UCF guy do that very well. He had trouble in the beginning but once he settled in , he was making plays out there. And those plays he was making did not strictly come from great game planning.

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 minute ago, lionheartkc said:

I totally get you. Yes... when the line isn't doing their job and you're left to fend for yourself, it can totally break your game. I see that less as being a failing of the game plan/play calling and more as a failing of coaching before and between games by not having a key position on the team ready to play. Man I hope Grimes is the answer.

It's one thing if the line isn't blocking. It's another if the line is doing their job, and the call isn't accounting for the defense on the field, or the pressure being brought. Play calling can leave the line out to dry, too. Sometimes you keep dropping back and you have protection but you are running 3 routes against 8 defensive backs, and there's just nowhere to go with the ball. 

It's almost never simply one thing or another. But, let's not just assume that if Stidham isn't playing well that it must be his fault.

[WFE12 9,191]

33 minutes ago, DAG said:

But I am going to say this one more time , all this debating we have is going to be answered starting game 1. It is going to answer a lot of questions about JS and the coaching staff. In my strong opinion, the offense is going to struggle mightily against Washington. We have a young offensive line, who is talented. We have unknowns at the RB position and we might have injuries at the WR position to start off. Trust will be a big factor. JS is going to have to lead and teach. More importantly he is going to have to make some plays on his own. Whether that be throwing the ball in a tight window, buying more time in the pocket, checking out , etc , etc. Game planning won’t be enough in terms of playing teams with talent. It has to be sound , but those players got to make things happen when stuff breaks down.

I believe that if the game plan has an inkling of sense to it we should be pretty good first game. Of course we won't have all positions rolling in how they would be a couple weeks later but I have the utmost confidence that Stid will lead us just as he did so many times last year. Might have to rely on him and RD most of the first game but I trust him to make the right throws and decisions. Stid is very meticulous and we best believe that he knows he has to work on his reads and pocket presence. As we know it wasn't all bad, all the time. There were still times he got out of pressure and threw a dime on the run or made a nice scramble. Hopefully our other wr's give him something to work with in the beginning. I really think that he will come out the gates on fire. 

[DAG 33,957]

Just now, WFE12 said:

I believe that if the game plan has an inkling of sense to it we should be pretty good first game. Of course we won't have all positions rolling in how they would be a couple weeks later but I have the utmost confidence that Stid will lead us just as he did so many times last year. Might have to rely on him and RD most of the first game but I trust him to make the right throws and decisions. Stid is very meticulous and we best believe that he knows he has to work on his reads and pocket presence. As we know it wasn't all bad, all the time. There were still times he got out of pressure and threw a dime on the run or made a nice scramble. Hopefully our other wr's give him something to work with in the beginning. I really think that he will come out the gates on fire. 

I am rooting for this and hope your right brother . Unfortunately I just don’t have that same sense of optimism. Not because I think we are a bad team. Only because I know we are talented , but have some serious unknowns .

[Barnacle 9,064]

5 minutes ago, DAG said:

The only issue I have with this is that it was not a pattern . Starting from game 1, he had happy feet. You could clearly see after being out for a year , the speed of the game wasn’t something he was not exactly ready for. Unfortunately for him he was facing Clemson which just exacerbated the situation . Now what I will say is throughout the season he got better with learning to keep his eyes up , although he still had that happy feet. He will run around and at least find Davis as an outlet. Of course , he still had times where he would tuck it and run into the sack as well. All I want to see him get better at is sliding feet prior to tucking it and having to reset or even running around hoping to find a Davis. That’s simply it. I get sometimes you just have to tuck it and go or bite the bullet. But there are also times where he could’ve slid his feet and got out of some pressure situations . For all the crap I gave SW he did that very well.

Edit: I also watched the UCF guy do that very well. He had trouble in the beginning but once he settled in , he was making plays out there. And those plays he was making did not strictly come from great game planning.

So many problems in the Clemson game that had nothing to do with Stidham. He played terribly, but I'm not going to use that as a measuring stick. Go watch the Clemson game, and then watch the Alabama game. It was near flawless play from a fundamental standpoint - or any standpoint. 

Believe it or not, he didn't exhibit these "fundamental" flaws that you are talking about against UCF, either. He had what I would call an uncharacteristic night from an accuracy standpoint, and obviously threw a horrible pick-six, but none of that was due to "happy feet". 

[aucanucktiger 1,791]

Kind of chuckling at how long this thread has gone about an article written by a freelance soccer writer that looks like he's not shaving yet - about a guess ("if I had to guess" ) by former Butte College QB and undrafted free agent brother of Aaron Rodgers about Jarrett Stidham's state of mind. But it's all good & fun.

[DAG 33,957]

29 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

So many problems in the Clemson game that had nothing to do with Stidham. He played terribly, but I'm not going to use that as a measuring stick. Go watch the Clemson game, and then watch the Alabama game. It was near flawless play from a fundamental standpoint - or any standpoint. 

Believe it or not, he didn't exhibit these "fundamental" flaws that you are talking about against UCF, either. He had what I would call an uncharacteristic night from an accuracy standpoint, and obviously threw a horrible pick-six, but none of that was due to "happy feet". 

Now did I blame him for the Clemson game? I specifically said I do NOT blame him for the Clemson game several post up. I said it exacerbated a situation that he already had. Why? Because he is playing against the best dang defensive line in the country right after facing a scrub team . He is not going to learn very much that quickly. I also said even though he does have happy feet, he started looking up and looking for outlets with Davis, which shows me he is getting better.

What I would like to see now is for him to not even tuck it at points but slide over and by time with his eyes up and in a good stance. Baker Mayfield is great at this when the pocket is collapsing. I hate how you guys take one snippet of a post and run with it. If you want to indirectly blame the coaching staff for all of JS issues . Have at it. I choose not to do that. I think JS and the coaching staff can be much better. He didn’t force the issue , but Clemson  wasn’t good enough to get 11 sacks . Throw the ball away. Even if the game plan sucks (which it did, you don’t need to bury yourself deeper). Nobody is freaking open, throw it away which he started doing as well.

I already gave him credit for the Bama game. I am also going to critique him, when it’s neccessary. I don’t understand how come on this forum it has to either be black or white.  Coaching staff does a good job they get credit . When they do a questionable job , they deserve criticism. Same with players. I guess I should expect to read on JS scouting report on the next level, Flawless except when coaching staff has bad game plan. I will be sure to look out for that one.

Edit: also you will have to show me where I said he had happy feet against UCF? However, I did give compliments to the UCF QB for the way he absolutely handed out defense , particularly under duress .

[Barnacle 9,064]

13 hours ago, DAG said:

It is when the QB can’t even do basic fundamentals...He is playing off straight pure talent right now...JS has a lot of potential but he needs to get the basics down first, like handing the himself in the pocket.

13 hours ago, DAG said:

Get your fundamentals down...

4 hours ago, DAG said:

he doesn’t even have basic fundamentals down, like taking a simple snap from the center or how to slide in the pocket without running around like a chicken with your freaking head cut off.  That is HIGHSCHOOL stuff...fundamentally sound...fundamentals...

1 hour ago, DAG said:

fundamentals....fundamentals...

1 hour ago, DAG said:

When the pocket breaks down, even if there’s is an inkling of it breaking down , he looses composure and stars running around.

37 minutes ago, DAG said:

Starting from game 1, he had happy feet. 

It's this common theme that I'm getting to, DAG, even if you qualify those statements by saying "he got better as the season went on". Comparing his fundamentals to a high school quarterback? Saying he doesn't have basic fundamentals? That's what I'm responding to. You said it so many times that, forgive me, I had a hard time letting it go. And, you kept using all of this in the present tense - as if the Stidham that we saw late in the season was still somehow devoid of basic fundamentals. That's demonstrably false. Doesn't mean that he was perfect, or that at times he was undisciplined. There's plenty to critique, but the hyperbole was too much for me.

27 minutes ago, DAG said:

If you want to indirectly blame the coaching staff for all of JS issues . Have at it. I choose not to do that. 

I could accuse you of doing the opposite, but that wouldn't be fair, would it?

[Southwest 186]

2 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

Just a reminder that Stidham was 9 for 26 against LSU... yes, that's a whopping 35% completion ratio. Checking out of a run plan wasn't likely going to be of much benefit for us in that game.

I can safely say most of the incompletions came in the 4th while trailing from giving up a 20 point lead. The D pretty much had figured out what we were doing both pass and run, so maybe someone checking out of redundant plays could have worked. Once again no one is saying give him the keys to the car but it is okay to let them drive around the block sometimes supervised.

[DAG 33,957]

1 hour ago, Barnacle said:

It's this common theme that I'm getting to, DAG, even if you qualify those statements by saying "he got better as the season went on". Comparing his fundamentals to a high school quarterback? Saying he doesn't have basic fundamentals? That's what I'm responding to. You said it so many times that, forgive me, I had a hard time letting it go. And, you kept using all of this in the present tense - as if the Stidham that we saw late in the season was still somehow devoid of basic fundamentals. That's demonstrably false. Doesn't mean that he was perfect, or that at times he was undisciplined. There's plenty to critique, but the hyperbole was too much for me.

I could accuse you of doing the opposite, but that wouldn't be fair, would it?

I don’t care about what’s fair. Just be accurate with your accusations. If you can find anywhere where I have indirectly blame JS for any of the coaches deficiencies then that is different. However, I have never once blamed him for incomplete game strategies. I have never said the guy sucks, he is average or not a quality QB. I have simply said there are simple fundamental aspects I feel that he needs to work on in his game to get to the next level. That easily correctable stuff. If that doesn’t sit right with you then oh well. Agree to disagree. But I am always going to give credit where credit is due and critique where critiquing is necessary at least in my eyes. Did it SW, Did it with NM and I am going to do it with JS, too. 

[AU64 10,122]

3 hours ago, Barnacle said:

@DAG Stidham played two VERY fundamentally sound games against Georgia 1.0 and Alabama. What I saw out of Stidham in the games that he played poorly (in my opinion as someone who played the position) was a quarterback playing without trust in the play being called, and ultimately a frustrated player. I say that because I've seen him play fundamental football in the games that we rolled out a solid plan. Stidham made plenty of mistakes on his own throughout the season. There are plenty of instances that I'm sure you could point to where I would agree that Stidham made a poor decision, or bailed on a play, or held onto the ball too long. But, I would first attribute those issues to a lack confidence and trust in what he was being asked to do. Once that issue is addressed, then you can move onto the fundamentals. I just don't think it matters what guy is behind the center - if there's no trust in the plays being called, we won't see good quarterback play. 

Trust in the play being called?   You must be kidding.   A 19 year old with one year of college experience considers himself a better judge of play calling than a staff of professional coaches watching the game from half a dozen different angles?  and we are supposed to accept that situation....which by the way, I seriously doubt really exists.  

But just in case you are correct.....when did JS become a boy-genius play caller and offensive analyst ?  If he's gonna be given veto power over play calling ...which is what you are suggesting it seems,  this team is in a real mess.      JMO

[DAG 33,957]

JS looked good here. Specifically keeping his eyes downfield. Look at 4:15. That is beautiful. Feet moving, eyes down the field, shoulders set and perfect strike in between the corner and safety. That is exactly what I hope to see more of come game 1 against Washington. Obviously, he can't do much if he has 5 people in his face as soon as the ball is napped. Also, I want to credit the coaching staff because one thing they did, down the stretch, was provided an avenue where JS could get the ball out quicker.

[Barnacle 9,064]

10 minutes ago, DAG said:

I don’t care about what’s fair. Just be accurate with your accusations. If you can find anywhere where I have indirectly blame JS for any of the coaches deficiencies then that is different. 

My point is that you haven't indirectly blamed JS for coaching deficiencies. That's why it wouldn't be fair for me to say you have. Nowhere have I blamed the coaches for Stidham's deficiencies. So, it's not really fair to say that about me, either. I've said that when I see him playing poorly, it's generally when the offense as a whole is playing poorly and when we don't have a good plan. In other words, he has shown a lack of discipline at times, and that's when I see his play suffer the most. But, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have basic fundamentals, as you keep repeating.

12 minutes ago, DAG said:

I have never said the guy sucks, he is average or not a quality QB.

No, you said that he doesn't have basic fundamentals. You said that he can't do simple things that a high school quarterback should be able to do. You compared him to a point guard that isn't capable enough to bring the ball up the court in a press situation. Can't bring the ball down the court? If that's not what you meant, then don't use such hyperbolic analogies. 

You also said "when the pocket breaks down, even if there an inkling of it breaking down, he loses composure and starts running around." After the Clemson game, that might have been a fair critique. It's not a fair critique today, because he demonstrated late in the season and in our biggest games that he was willing to stick in the pocket, stand tall and make big throws. I haven't gone back and watched the SEC championship game again, but I can tell you that is true of his games against Georgia 1.0, Alabama and UCF. So, your statement isn't a fair characterization of his pocket presence. At one point it might have been, but its not today. 

Now, that doesn't mean that Stidham is perfect in the pocket. It doesn't mean he doesn't need to improve on his mechanics or footwork. But, it demonstrates that does not lack fundamentals altogether in that regard, as you keep repeating. 

41 minutes ago, DAG said:

I have simply said there are simple fundamental aspects I feel that he needs to work on in his game to get to the next level. Those easily correctable stuff. If that doesn’t sit right with you then oh well. Agree to disagree . But I am always going to give credit where credit is due and critique where critiquing is neccessary at least in my eyes. Did SW, Did it with NM and I am going to do it with JS , too. 

Not disagreeing that he has fundamentals to work on. But again, that's not what you've said throughout this thread. You've said that he lacks these fundamentals altogether. 

[aubiefifty 16,735]

Does anyone think with stidhams shoulder injury they let him run less?

[DAG 33,957]

21 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

My point is that you haven't indirectly blamed JS for coaching deficiencies. That's why it wouldn't be fair for me to say you have. Nowhere have I blamed the coaches for Stidham's deficiencies. So, it's not really fair to say that about me, either. I've said that when I see him playing poorly, it's generally when the offense as a whole is playing poorly and when we don't have a good plan. In other words, he has shown a lack of discipline at times, and that's when I see his play suffer the most. But, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have basic fundamentals, as you keep repeating.

No, you said that he doesn't have basic fundamentals. You said that he can't do simple things that a high school quarterback should be able to do. You compared him to a point guard that isn't capable enough to bring the ball up the court in a press situation. Can't bring the ball down the court? If that's not what you meant, then don't use such hyperbolic analogies. 

You also said "when the pocket breaks down, even if there an inkling of it breaking down, he loses composure and starts running around." After the Clemson game, that might have been a fair critique. It's not a fair critique today, because he demonstrated late in the season and in our biggest games that he was willing to stick in the pocket, stand tall and make big throws. I haven't gone back and watched the SEC championship game again, but I can tell you that is true of his games against Georgia 1.0, Alabama and UCF. So, your statement isn't a fair characterization of his pocket presence. At one point it might have been, but its not today. 

Now, that doesn't mean that Stidham is perfect in the pocket. It doesn't mean he doesn't need to improve on his mechanics or footwork. But, it demonstrates that does not lack fundamentals altogether in that regard, as you keep repeating. 

Not disagreeing that he has fundamentals to work on. But again, that's not what you've said throughout this thread. You've said that he lacks these fundamentals altogether. 

That is absolutely what I meant. He improved down the stretch, but it is nowhere near at an elite level in my eyes. IMO, Jake Fromm, a true freshman, looked more fluid than JS in the pocket as soon as he stepped on the field.  Now JS has a stronger arm and is more accurate but in terms of fluidity in the pocket. Fromm is better in my eyes and that is a fundamental aspect of being a QB. Also, if he was as fundamentally sound as you say, he would not be a projected 4th,5th,6th round player. He would be gone right now. He has the arm strength, he has the looks, his accuracy numbers look great, yet I don't think most people had him even in the top 5 eligible for QBs.

[AU64 10,122]

1 minute ago, aubiefifty said:

Does anyone think with stidhams shoulder injury they let him run less?

pretty likely.......and as a general rule, not having him run the ball as a standard part of the offense is probably wise anyway.   He's moderate size for a QB or RB and seems that most of the time QB's get hit from the blind side and defenders just love to drive their shoulders into the ground.  He pulled off some good "surprise" runs which is the way to use him in my view.    

[Barnacle 9,064]

17 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Trust in the play being called?   You must be kidding.   A 19 year old with one year of college experience considers himself a better judge of play calling than a staff of professional coaches watching the game from half a dozen different angles?  and we are supposed to accept that situation....which by the way, I seriously doubt really exists.  

I never said he was a better judge, or that he knows better than the coaches. I would also seriously doubt the truth of that statement, if anyone ever said it. 

I'm talking about trust, like the trust you have in your golf swing. The kind of trust that is developed over time that what you know you are supposed to be doing is going to work. It takes full commitment. As a quarterback you are going out there and you are trusting a lot of things. You are trusting that the called play is going to be successful in that situation. You trust that your linemen are going to block for you. You trust that your running back is going to pick up the blitz, the WR are going to run the right routes, etc. If all that happens, and you do your job then theoretically the play will be successful. 

But, as we know that doesn't always pan out. Lineman don't always block the player they are supposed to. WRs don't always run the route they are supposed to. That's football, and it happens. Well when every other play something horrible is going wrong, you start to lose some trust in what's going on. You start to lose some trust that you aren't going to get sacked for the 11th time. Doubt starts to creep into your mind. The coaches made some adjustments at half time to mitigate the rush, but those adjustments haven't worked. So, you continue to lose trust. Then you stop doing your job. You start to do too much. You start making stupid decisions. You become undisciplined. This is what happens. 

I'm not even making a comment about whether or not he should have the ability to make more adjustments at the line. I have no idea if that would help or not. I'm just explaining what I meant by trust. 

[DAG 33,957]

4 hours ago, Barnacle said:

What I saw out of Stidham in the games that he played poorly (in my opinion as someone who played the position) was a quarterback playing without trust in the play being called, and ultimately a frustrated player. I say that because I've seen him play fundamental football in the games that we rolled out a solid plan. Stidham made plenty of mistakes on his own throughout the season. There are plenty of instances that I'm sure you could point to where I would agree that Stidham made a poor decision, or bailed on a play, or held onto the ball too long. But, I would first attribute those issues to a lack confidence and trust in what he was being asked to do. Once that issue is addressed, then you can move onto the fundamentals.

 

This is absolutely blaming the coaching staff hahaha but I digress.

[AU64 10,122]

2 minutes ago, DAG said:

This is absolutely blaming the coaching staff  haha

That was not my quote.....had used it as reference when offering a refutation of it.

I agree with your view.....think that comment was picked up from another poster....

[DAG 33,957]

1 minute ago, AU64 said:

That was not my quote.....had used it as reference when offering a refutation of it.

I agree with your view.....think that comment was picked up from another poster....

I fixed it!

[Barnacle 9,064]

6 minutes ago, DAG said:

That is absolutely what I meant. He improved down the stretch, but it is nowhere near at an elite level in my eyes. IMO, Jake Fromm, a true freshman, looked more fluid than JS in the pocket.  Now JS has a stronger arm and is more accurate but in terms of fluidity in the pocket. Fromm is better in my eyes and that is a fundamental aspect of being a QB. Also, if he was as fundamentally sound as you say, he would not be a projected 4th,5th,6th round player. He would be gone right now. He has the arm strength, he has the looks, his accuracy numbers look great, yet I don't think most people had him even in the top 5 eligible for QBs.

I never said he was elite, though. I'm just saying that there is a difference between saying "he has some things to improve upon" and saying "he lacks basic fundamentals altogether." I agree with the first statement, but not the second statement.