japantiger 4,051 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 On 5/11/2018 at 9:32 PM, homersapien said: And what's the point you are making? This is where you play useful idiot and can't remember anything and don't remember how this conversation got started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japantiger 4,051 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 19 hours ago, HVAU said: That, if I recall correctly, was my interpretation of the article's position which I went on to disagree with. "The point of the article, I believe, is that there are intellectual/philosophical discussions to be had, but it's not necessary to include Trump apologists in the dialogue as many of their positions, under scrutiny, aren't defensible." The next paraph from the post you are quoting... "I don't think it's the right track for journalism, but I also don't believe that the "both sides" treatment of topics, or the kidglove approach to political representatives is correct either. If the media is dealing with the frequency of dishonesty that originates from this administration they should address it bluntly. Huckabee-Sanders consistently lies in a brazen manner on behalf of the Trump White House. No reason to pretend otherwise. Other administrations should be handled in the same way, and have been." I think you may have been putting words in my mouth again. Sorry to put words in your mouth. Let's try this. Name your top 3 "lies" that you feel the Trump administration propagates on the American people with regularity....Tax cuts? North Korea? Iran? Immigration? Supreme Court or any court? Health Care? Economic goals? Manufacturing? EPA? As to your point on "other" administrations being called out for lying; or in the case of Obama, every even remotely challenged a policy position Please tell me where the White House press corp called out Barack Obama for lying....Iran deal? Obamacare? Lybia? Egypt? Muslim brotherhood? Engagement in Trump campaign? Economic policy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAU 673 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, japantiger said: Sorry to put words in your mouth. Let's try this. Name your top 3 "lies" that you feel the Trump administration propagates on the American people with regularity....Tax cuts? North Korea? Iran? Immigration? Supreme Court or any court? Health Care? Economic goals? Manufacturing? EPA? As to your point on "other" administrations being called out for lying; or in the case of Obama, every even remotely challenged a policy position Please tell me where the White House press corp called out Barack Obama for lying....Iran deal? Obamacare? Lybia? Egypt? Muslim brotherhood? Engagement in Trump campaign? Economic policy? We could just look at each on. Tax Cuts-the administration has lied about the figures related to the tax cuts and deficit projections related to the tax cuts numerous times. There have also been frequent distortions about who is benefiting from the tax cuts. North Korea-I'm not claiming there have been lies by the administration in regard to NK. I do see resolution of the Korean conflict as a feather for Trump's cap, but I also see the other factors that led to NK's decision to begin dismantling their program (structural instability of the testing facility, dire economic straits due to years of sanctions, the fact that NK has achieved nuclear capability). Maybe those other factors aren't relevant though and NK decided to disarm because of a high school Twitter spat. Who knows? Immigration-the fact that the Trump administration pretends that the ban isn't purely a Muslim Ban. You can argue otherwise, but you'd need to disregard Trump's own words and the evolution of the ban as the administrations added expendable countries to its policy the appease the court while ignoring Trump friendly countries from which terrorists have originated. Health Care-I don't know if it constitutes a lie or an inability to execute his policy promises due to diplomatic incompetence, but Trump guaranteed positive changes to healthcare that would result in care for all and reduced costs. Economic Goals and Manufacturing-Trump can hang his hat on the positive economic data of the day, but the trend was established under Obama. We've had one full quarter of economic data after the Trump tax bill. So far so good, but I agree with many economists (if you disregard the Voodoo cultists like Laffer) in their critiques of the cuts. The Campaign-Trump has yet to reveal his financial entanglements. The Mueller investigation has resulted in more than 20 indictments of campaign affiliates. You can argue the witchhunt perspective and disregard all of the crimes revealed thus far. For your Obama question I think it's necessary to look past the components of the current press corp which would be reflective of the press corp under Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. TelevisionEdit Takaaki Abe – Nippon TV Jim Acosta – CNN[2] Yasmeen Sami Alamiri – CGTN Yamiche Alcindor – PBS Gustau Alegret – Nuestra Tele Noticias 24 Horas Jacqueline Alemany – CBS News Peter Alexander – NBC News Wes Barrett – Fox News Emel Bayrak – TRT Turkish Radio and Television Corporation James Bays – Al Jazeera English Geoff Bennett – NBC News Kate Bennett – CNN Margaret Brennan – CBS News[3] David Brody – Christian Broadcasting Network Blake Burman – Fox Business News Ching-Yi Chang – Shanghai Media Group Ronica Cleary – Fox 5 DC WTTG Kaitlan Collins – CNN Stephen Collinson – CNN Sara Cook – NHK Kevin Corke – Fox News Philip Crowther – France 24 Zoe Daniel – ABC News (Australia) Jeremy Diamond – CNN Sean Doody – C-SPAN Devin Dwyer – ABC News Arden Farhi – CBS News Katherine Faulders – ABC News Alan Fisher – Al Jazeera English Kristin Fisher – Fox News Jon Garcia – ABC News Major Garrett – CBS News[4] Serafin Gómez – Fox News Noah Gray – CNN Kimberly Halkett – Al Jazeera English Dan Hausle – WHDH Caroline Horn – CBS News Jillian Hughes – CBS News Hallie Jackson – NBC News[5] Lesa Jansen – Fox News Eamon Javers – CNBC Jonathan Karl – ABC News[6] Peter Kleim – n-tv Raquel Krähenbühl – GloboNews Elizabeth Landers – CNN Richard Latendresse – TVA Group Kevin Liptak – CNN Cordelia Lynch – Sky News Joy Malbon – CTV News Allie Malloy – CNN Mark Meredith – Nexstar Media Group Dan Merica – CNN Victor Montoro – C-SPAN Sara Murray – CNN Kelly O'Donnell – MSNBC Tara Palmeri – ABC News John R. Parkinson – ABC News Jordyn Phelps – ABC News Abby Phillip – CNN Fernando Pizzaro – Univision John Roberts – Fox News[7] Janet Rodriguez – Univision Arlette Saenz – ABC News Steve Scully – C-SPAN[8] Chris Sheridan – Al Jazeera English Jon Sopel – BBC Jessica Stone – CGTN Amber Strong – Christian Broadcasting Network Margaret Talev – Bloomberg Television[9] Kayla Tausche – CNBC[10] Scott Thuman – ABC 7 News WJLA-TV; Sinclair Broadcast Group Cecilia Vega – ABC News[11] Ali Vitali – NBC News Kristen Welker – NBC News[12] Christina Wilkie – CNBC Jennifer Wishon – Christian Broadcasting Network Trey Yingst – One America News Network James Yu – Korean Broadcasting System Jeff Zeleny – CNN I see plenty of conservative representation on that list. Instead of taking your bait to chase geese, I'm going to operate under the assumption that those conservative journalists leveled many critical questions at the Obama administration. I will also take comfort in the fact that the previous administrations actually engaged in presidential press conferences. The fact is that all administrations make political statements which we in the real world call lies, but true to form Trump tells the biggest lies in the boldest way. His representatives are frequently dishonest, almost every press engagement results in at least one significant lie. My point was, again, that rather than shutting out the Trump apologists entirely, journalists should simply call out the lies of those administration officials on the spot a la the Tapper/Miller interview or his treatment of Conway. I welcome your reply so that I may once again restate the points of my original point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAU 673 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 Just realized I skipped Iran and the EPA. I don't recall specific dishonesty related to those topics. I do, however, disagree with the administrations policies of weakening environmental protections, and damaging the credibility of the US by reneging on agreements in which all parties have been verified to be in compliance with. Eta-A critical look at Trump's strategy by a Brookings Institute panel: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/05/08/around-the-halls-brookings-experts-discuss-the-implications-of-president-trumps-iran-nuclear-deal-announcement/ " If one wanted to alienate allies and partners, minimize international support for Iran’s accountability, further destabilize the Middle East, suck the oxygen out of efforts to punish Iran for its bad behavior regionally, and demonstrate to North Korea that negotiating with the United States is worth little, then the president’s decision today is a smart move." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,362 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 3 hours ago, japantiger said: This is where you play useful idiot and can't remember anything and don't remember how this conversation got started... No, I think you just get caught up in your inchoate rants where the original point is long forgotten and doesn't matter anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japantiger 4,051 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 On 5/13/2018 at 10:21 AM, HVAU said: One at a time: Tax Cuts-the administration has lied about the figures related to the tax cuts and deficit projections related to the tax cuts numerous times. There have also been frequent distortions about who is benefiting from the tax cuts. You're lying not Trump...your comments are almost verbatim from the articles the left ran prior to the actual "Act" being passed...you sound like the CBS guys that thought they had him until they had an accountant actually do peoples taxes...data is overwhelming...people are getting cuts.... http://freebeacon.com/issues/analysis-nearly-every-household-will-receive-tax-cut-revised-tax-proposal/ https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2017/12/24/watch-cbs-news-finds-three-families-who-will-be-getting-serious-relief-thanks-to-trumps-tax-cuts-n2426404 Deficits - everything I see says deficits will be higher.... North Korea-I'm not claiming there have been lies by the administration in regard to NK. I do see resolution of the Korean conflict as a feather for Trump's cap, but I also see the other factors that led to NK's decision to begin dismantling their program (structural instability of the testing facility, dire economic straits due to years of sanctions, the fact that NK has achieved nuclear capability). Maybe those other factors aren't relevant though and NK decided to disarm because of a high school Twitter spat. Who knows? NK - OK, so no lies on NK... Immigration-the fact that the Trump administration pretends that the ban isn't purely a Muslim Ban. You can argue otherwise, but you'd need to disregard Trump's own words and the evolution of the ban as the administrations added expendable countries to its policy the appease the court while ignoring Trump friendly countries from which terrorists have originated. Immigration - seriously dude...not a muslim ban...just because you don't like it; doesn't make it a lie. I guess your calling Alito a liar too? I'm sure he'll appreciate that. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-travel-ban-supreme-court-arguments-2018-4...The Supreme Court finally heard arguments on the travel ban — and Trump looks likely to win From Supreme Court arguments... JUSTICE SAMUEL A. ALITO JR.: I mean, there are — I think there are 50 predominantly Muslim countries in the world. Five — five countries — five predominantly Muslim countries are on this list. The population of the — of the predominantly Muslim countries on this list make up about 8 percent of the world’s Muslim population. Justice Alito said that the travel ban did not do a very good job of excluding Muslims. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/25/us/politics/supreme-court-arguments-trumps-travel-ban-annotated-excerpts.html . Health Care-I don't know if it constitutes a lie or an inability to execute his policy promises due to diplomatic incompetence, but Trump guaranteed positive changes to healthcare that would result in care for all and reduced costs. HealthCare - two points: he has made positive changes...he killed the mandate...again, you don't like it...that doesn't make it a lie...but the program is imploding all on it's own before that...less than 10m signed up this past year and the exchanges are unsound...so, again, , no lie Second point...been president less than 1.5 years...as to his effectiveness on getting the policy enacted, we'll look at this in a couple years... Economic Goals and Manufacturing-Trump can hang his hat on the positive economic data of the day, but the trend was established under Obama. We've had one full quarter of economic data after the Trump tax bill. So far so good, but I agree with many economists (if you disregard the Voodoo cultists like Laffer) in their critiques of the cuts. Economics...so no lie...again, you just don't like it...all the American's that are getting tax cuts, bonuses, wage increases and jobs now think it's pretty OK. I'll take real results over your and "some economists" opinions. ....so, no lie, again The Campaign-Trump has yet to reveal his financial entanglements. The Mueller investigation has resulted in more than 20 indictments of campaign affiliates. You can argue the witchhunt perspective and disregard all of the crimes revealed thus far. Campaign - not required to disclose his financials...Mueller investigation ....well, let's just see where that lands...we'll see if anyone is actually convicted of anything...other than the FBI and DOJ personnel involved....and based on the IG report, that list is going to get bigger....so you really didn't point out a lie here either... Summary....I see one "lie"... on deficits...or maybe, he just believes economic growth will be higher based on OMB and others assessments...but you didn't do much of a job supporting your premise of him being a liar...just admit it...you don't like his policies...I get it...but you be honest...because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a liar...it means they have a brain....this is why the liberal left and never trumpers are in the wilderness...the last week has shown the absurdity of the "resistance"...the entire mainstream press is hoping the NK talks stall, are openly supporting Hamas and defending MS13 for crying out loud...how ****** up are you guys ? That was a rhetorical question...pretty ****** up... For your Obama question I think it's necessary to look past the components of the current press corp which would be reflective of the press corp under Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. Obama - You could just provide one tangiable example to support your position...just one example of Rachel Maddow calling Obama a liar for "if you want to keep your Dr" etc...one? Don Lemon? one? I'd concede pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAU 673 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 6 hours ago, japantiger said: Tax Cuts-the administration has lied about the figures related to the tax cuts and deficit projections related to the tax cuts numerous times. There have also been frequent distortions about who is benefiting from the tax cuts. You're lying not Trump...your comments are almost verbatim from the articles the left ran prior to the actual "Act" being passed...you sound like the CBS guys that thought they had him until they had an accountant actually do peoples taxes...data is overwhelming...people are getting cuts.... http://freebeacon.com/issues/analysis-nearly-every-household-will-receive-tax-cut-revised-tax-proposal/ https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2017/12/24/watch-cbs-news-finds-three-families-who-will-be-getting-serious-relief-thanks-to-trumps-tax-cuts-n2426404 Deficits - everything I see says deficits will be higher.... North Korea-I'm not claiming there have been lies by the administration in regard to NK. I do see resolution of the Korean conflict as a feather for Trump's cap, but I also see the other factors that led to NK's decision to begin dismantling their program (structural instability of the testing facility, dire economic straits due to years of sanctions, the fact that NK has achieved nuclear capability). Maybe those other factors aren't relevant though and NK decided to disarm because of a high school Twitter spat. Who knows? NK - OK, so no lies on NK... Immigration-the fact that the Trump administration pretends that the ban isn't purely a Muslim Ban. You can argue otherwise, but you'd need to disregard Trump's own words and the evolution of the ban as the administrations added expendable countries to its policy the appease the court while ignoring Trump friendly countries from which terrorists have originated. Immigration - seriously dude...not a muslim ban...just because you don't like it; doesn't make it a lie. I guess your calling Alito a liar too? I'm sure he'll appreciate that. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-travel-ban-supreme-court-arguments-2018-4...The Supreme Court finally heard arguments on the travel ban — and Trump looks likely to win From Supreme Court arguments... JUSTICE SAMUEL A. ALITO JR.: I mean, there are — I think there are 50 predominantly Muslim countries in the world. Five — five countries — five predominantly Muslim countries are on this list. The population of the — of the predominantly Muslim countries on this list make up about 8 percent of the world’s Muslim population. Justice Alito said that the travel ban did not do a very good job of excluding Muslims. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/25/us/politics/supreme-court-arguments-trumps-travel-ban-annotated-excerpts.html . Health Care-I don't know if it constitutes a lie or an inability to execute his policy promises due to diplomatic incompetence, but Trump guaranteed positive changes to healthcare that would result in care for all and reduced costs. HealthCare - two points: he has made positive changes...he killed the mandate...again, you don't like it...that doesn't make it a lie...but the program is imploding all on it's own before that...less than 10m signed up this past year and the exchanges are unsound...so, again, , no lie Second point...been president less than 1.5 years...as to his effectiveness on getting the policy enacted, we'll look at this in a couple years... Economic Goals and Manufacturing-Trump can hang his hat on the positive economic data of the day, but the trend was established under Obama. We've had one full quarter of economic data after the Trump tax bill. So far so good, but I agree with many economists (if you disregard the Voodoo cultists like Laffer) in their critiques of the cuts. Economics...so no lie...again, you just don't like it...all the American's that are getting tax cuts, bonuses, wage increases and jobs now think it's pretty OK. I'll take real results over your and "some economists" opinions. ....so, no lie, again The Campaign-Trump has yet to reveal his financial entanglements. The Mueller investigation has resulted in more than 20 indictments of campaign affiliates. You can argue the witchhunt perspective and disregard all of the crimes revealed thus far. Campaign - not required to disclose his financials...Mueller investigation ....well, let's just see where that lands...we'll see if anyone is actually convicted of anything...other than the FBI and DOJ personnel involved....and based on the IG report, that list is going to get bigger....so you really didn't point out a lie here either... Summary....I see one "lie"... on deficits...or maybe, he just believes economic growth will be higher based on OMB and others assessments...but you didn't do much of a job supporting your premise of him being a liar...just admit it...you don't like his policies...I get it...but you be honest...because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a liar...it means they have a brain....this is why the liberal left and never trumpers are in the wilderness...the last week has shown the absurdity of the "resistance"...the entire mainstream press is hoping the NK talks stall, are openly supporting Hamas and defending MS13 for crying out loud...how ****** up are you guys ? That was a rhetorical question...pretty ****** up... For your Obama question I think it's necessary to look past the components of the current press corp which would be reflective of the press corp under Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. Obama - You could just provide one tangiable example to support your position...just one example of Rachel Maddow calling Obama a liar for "if you want to keep your Dr" etc...one? Don Lemon? one? I'd concede pretty easily. I'm glad you finally have taken the time to respond. I may choose to do so as well when it's convenient. You are absolutely ignoring the lies that are implicit and explicit in the topics that I addressed. For instance the Muslim ban. You know damn well that Trump and his team called it a Muslim ban, considered it a Muslim ban (many in his base voted for him understanding that representation of the policy despite it's level of constitutionality) and only altered their jargon when the legality of it was questioned. There's also a willful ignorance on your part to consider why countries in which Trump has business developments, yet many if these same countries produce more Islamic extremists, aren't on ban list. Your inclusion of Alito's comments are derivative as they were made in not Spring of 2018 and disregard Trump in his own words. Like I said, I address more later, but I think your defenses are mostly horse***t that purposefully gives Trump pass on every lie through your awkward rationalization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAU 673 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, HVAU said: Campaign - not required to disclose his financials...Mueller investigation ....well, let's just see where that lands...we'll see if anyone is actually convicted of anything...other than the FBI and DOJ personnel involved....and based on the IG report, that list is going to get bigger....so you really didn't point out a lie here either... Let's start here since I've got a minute. Your question wasn't about what is required. It was about whether or not Trump specifically lied. He did. https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-presidential-debate-fact-check/2016/10/trump-has-broken-his-committment-to-release-his-tax-returns-229138 https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/donald-trump-i-will-release-tax-returns-607836227723 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAU 673 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 Trump on the Muslim Ban: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/07/donald-trump-ban-all-muslims-entering-us-san-bernardino-shooting https://www.cato.org/blog/dozen-times-trump-equated-travel-ban-muslim-ban https://mobile.twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/683277309969694720 This one is kind of nuts: https://mobile.twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/713012045214531584 More later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAU 673 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 Back to the campaign for a moment... Trump has updated his financial disclosure to include the Cohen payment. Hush money to Daniels relates to Trump's electability conferring campaign finance requirements on that money. In that case, every lie that has come from Trump, Gulliani, etc. can be thrown into relevant status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,419 Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 On 5/11/2018 at 10:52 AM, homersapien said: In other words, journalists tend to be well educated and critical thinkers. And Trump cares much more about himself than he does the country. Every decision he makes goes through his self-aggrandizing filter. homey, i actually agree with the definition of the word "Journalist." Journalist is something i reserve for folks that are tried, tested, and proven. I do not throw that term around lightly. "Media Person:" That is anybody with a keyboard. To imply that Media People have anything more than that is a disservice to the Journalist. Media people like Rush and Hannity often have little more than HS diplomas. Hollyweird Actors: some of the most vocal advocates there barely have hs diplomas. You also have folks like TMZ that are diplomaed in something more than Journalism Degrees. Media People: Rush, Hannity, Beck, Alex Jones, Basically Fox News minus maybe Baier and Wallace. MSNBC seems to have cleaned up most of its media people except for maybe brainless Chris Hayes. I really like Donny Deutsch. In the MSM: Cillizza and Acosta need to have someone monitor their keyboards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.