Trump Nukes Iran Treaty

[Strychnine 1,802]

10 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

So another honest question.  Have you read it?  And what makes your opinion more qualified than the military brass cited above?

 

His statement confesses his lack of understanding of the JCPOA.  It is understandable, as there is no shortage of misinformation floating around.  Facilities such as Fordow, Natanz, Arak, etc are continuously monitored.  No announcements, no waiting periods.  All declared facilities relative to enriching, storing, mining, and milling uranium are continuously monitored.  IAEA inspectors are basically living in those facilities.  Where the "announced inspections" comes from is that IAEA must ask Iran for permission to inspect undeclared facilities that they wish to visit.  IAEA and Iran have 14 days to reach an agreement.  If they do not, it goes before a commission that consists of a representative from each party of the JCPOA.  They have 7 days to deliberate the matter, and a majority vote can order Iran to make the site in question accessible.  If ordered to do so, Iran then has 3 days to comply.  If they do not, all original sanctions snap back into place.

While "undeclared facilities" sounds like something inspectors should also have immediate access to, they can actually be anything.  No country on this planet is going to grant foreign personnel that may or may not be foreign intelligence assets immediate and unrestricted access to military facilities that contain completely unrelated classified military hardware.  To illustrate it better, put the United States in Iran's position.  The United States declares all sites involved in the refinement of raw materials and production of nuclear weapons, and gives IAEA full around-the-clock access to them.  IAEA then shows up with a request to inspect Area 51, Naval Base San Diego, and Edwards Air Force Base.  Do you think the United States would agree to anything that grants automatic access by foreign personnel to sites of that sort?

Undeclared facilities were never really a big deal to our side of the negotiations because Iran has not made much of an effort to conceal their nuclear program, they instead made more of an effort to harden and protect it from airstrikes.  Even Wikipedia has extensive knowledge of their facilities.

Here is a good summary:  https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/JCPOA-at-a-glance

The Wiki article is not bad either:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

4 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

And you just believe them blindly?  The WORLD'S #1 abuser of Human Rights?  The Top Apartheid State.  You don't think that those buggers would hood wink you at all.  Their word cannot ever be disputed.

Yeah, and I have a bridge to sell you...

I can't help it if you and others are not up to speed on the info Netanyahu shared wit he U.S. and our allies a week or so ago. He did an hour long press conference summarizing info and secret documents they captured in Iran. It included drawings on a nuclear bomb, launch vehicles, etc. It left no doubt Iran is ignoring the treaty and still pursing development of a bomb. It also mentioned using the billions of dollars Obama gave them. I'm sure they also appreciate the generosity of Hillary in making available the uranium they need.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/pm-expected-to-reveal-how-iran-cheated-world-on-nuke-program-1.6045300

U.S. intelligence has confirmed it has essentially the same info.

[homersapien 11,352]

41 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I can't help it if you and others are not up to speed on the 1) info Netanyahu shared wit he U.S. and our allies a week or so ago. He did an hour long press conference summarizing info and secret documents they captured in Iran. It included drawings on a nuclear bomb, launch vehicles, etc. 2) It left no doubt Iran is ignoring the treaty and still pursing development of a bomb. 3) It also mentioned using the billions of dollars Obama gave them. I'm sure they also appreciate the generosity of Hillary in making available the uranium they need.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/pm-expected-to-reveal-how-iran-cheated-world-on-nuke-program-1.6045300

1) This was all information that was generated and known prior to JCPOA.  It's not relevant to the discussion.

2) Iran is not ignoring the treaty.

3) We didn't give them money, we released their own money to them.

4) Hillary didn't make any uranium available to them.

 

This reminds me of a story from my time in the Boy Scouts.  We were winter camping and the woods were already pretty wet after a long rain.  Being a country boy, I came into the scouts with a lot more woodsman experience than most of the boys in the Troop.

Correspondingly, I was very carefully and slowly starting a very small fire using what little dry tinder and twigs available, intending to nurse it to the point where it was hot enough to first dry, then burn, subsequent kindling.  Once it gets big enough it will dry and then burn pretty much whatever you put on it.  This is how to start a good fire with damp material.

Just as I was getting it to the point where I could start adding larger pieces of wood to dry and burn, one of the "city" kids comes up and drops an armload of damp leaves on it, snuffing it out.  He thought he was helping.

This treaty with Iran was precarious and less than optimum, but it bought time and a little trust that might lead to more progress in the future. 

Trump just snuffed out that beginning.

 

[homersapien 11,352]

Good article.   It recognizes both perspectives.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/iran-is-now-unfettered/559982/

Iran Is Now Unfettered

Are the Gulf countries ready?

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

42 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I can't help it if you and others are not up to speed on the info Netanyahu shared wit he U.S. and our allies a week or so ago. He did an hour long press conference summarizing info and secret documents they captured in Iran. It included drawings on a nuclear bomb, launch vehicles, etc. It left no doubt Iran is ignoring the treaty and still pursing development of a bomb. It also mentioned using the billions of dollars Obama gave them. I'm sure they also appreciate the generosity of Hillary in making available the uranium they need.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/pm-expected-to-reveal-how-iran-cheated-world-on-nuke-program-1.6045300

U.S. intelligence has confirmed it has essentially the same info.

Sorry that you're definitely NOT up to speed with what is going on in that region.   As Homer said, that is old info.  You might like to try not getting your info from Pravda...

I wouldn't trust Netanyahu, nor the Israelis as far as I can spit.  And I can spit pretty far...

Trusting the Israelis is like trusting a bammer not to claim 15 + Natty's...

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

21 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

Pres. Trump has pulled the U.S. out of the Iran Treaty, probably the worst treaty in our history, and reimposed severe sanctions. Great move IMHO and he gave a great speech in announcing his decision.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/05/08/trump-vows-to-withdraw-from-iran-nuclear-agreement-calls-pact-defective-at-its-core.html

Another campaign promise kept

With his decision on Iran (which, by the way, Congress never had a say in) President Donald Trump ended the ridiculous Iran nuclear "agreement."

 

 

 

 

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

Another campaign promise kept

With his decision on Iran (which, by the way, Congress never had a say in) President Donald Trump ended the ridiculous Iran nuclear "agreement."

 

 

 

 

Yep.  

I have no retort.  Stupid definitely is as stupid does.  Trump and his voters exemplify that. 

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

48 minutes ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

Yep.  

I have no retort.  Stupid definitely is as stupid does.  Trump and his voters exemplify that. 

If you have no retort then why not stop the comment at no retort.

[homersapien 11,352]

44 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

If you have no retort then why not stop the comment at no retort.

And omit the juicy part? 

[NolaAuTiger 3,294]

1 hour ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

Yep.  

I have no retort.  Stupid definitely is as stupid does.  Trump and his voters exemplify that. 

Ok Hillary 

[homersapien 11,352]

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/08/donald-trump-iran-nuclear-deal-john-bolton/

.....“This will make America much safer,” the president declaimed, jabbing his fingers at the assembled reporters.

Guess who’s celebrating the president’s decision to violate a nuclear nonproliferation agreement signed by the United States less than three years ago? His new national security adviser, John Bolton, a former paid speaker for an Iranian ex-terror group who has long been obsessed with “regime change” in Tehran; the crown prince — and de facto ruler — of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, who claims Iran’s supreme leader “makes Hitler look good”; and the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, who constantly compares the Islamic Republic to the so-called Islamic State.

Don’t be fooled: This disastrous and unilateral decision by Trump won’t improve U.S. security. Or Israeli security, for that matter. Even card-carrying hawks who hate the Islamic Republic think Trump is mad to pull out of the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA, as the nuclear deal is officially known.

Because guess who won’t be celebrating? The entire U.S. military establishment: Defense Secretary James Mattis, who says he has read the text of the nuclear agreement three times and considers it to be “pretty robust”; Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joseph Dunford, who says, “Iran is adhering to its JCPOA obligations” and a U.S. decision to quit the deal “would have an impact on others’ willingness to sign agreements”; the head of U.S. Strategic Command, Gen. John Hyten, who says, “Iran is in compliance with JCPOA” and argues “it’s our job to live up to the terms of that agreement”; and the head of U.S. Central Command, Gen. Joseph Votel, who says the nuclear deal is “in our interest” because it “addresses one of the principle threats that we deal with from Iran.”

Those are just the generals who are still in uniform. In March, a statementsigned by 100 U.S. national security veterans from across the political spectrum said the nuclear agreement “enhances U.S. and regional security” and “ditching it would serve no national security purpose.” Fifty of the 100 signatories were retired U.S. military officers, including leading Republicans such as retired Gen. Brent Scowcroft, who served as national security adviser to George H.W. Bush, and retired Gen. Michael Hayden, who served as director of both the NSA and the CIA under George W. Bush.

Then there’s retired Gen. Colin Powell, national security adviser to Ronald Reagan and secretary of state under George W. Bush, who has called the JCPOA “a pretty good deal.” And Trump’s own former national security adviser, soon-to-be-retired Gen. H.R. McMaster, who was “working closely with two key senators to prevent Trump from destroying the Iran deal” prior to being fired and replaced with Bolton in March.

Guess who else isn’t celebrating? The Israeli security establishment. Netanyahu may claim to possess thousands of “secret nuclear files” that show the JCPOA was “built on lies,” but Israel’s generals and spymasters disagree, including: the chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, Gen. Gadi Eisenkot, who says the deal “with all its faults is working”; the chair of the Israeli Space Agency and award-winning military scientist, Isaac Ben-Israel, who says “the agreement is not bad at all, it’s even good for Israel” because “it averts an atom bomb for 15 years”; the former director of the spy agency Mossad, Efraim Halevy, who says the JCPOA provides a “credible answer to the Iranian military threat, at least for a decade, if not longer”; the former chief of domestic security agency Shin Bet, Carmi Gillon, who says the nuclear agreement has helped “make the region, and the world, a safer place”; the former head of Israeli military intelligence, Amos Yadlin, who says “tearing up the deal would create a dangerous void”; and former Israeli prime minister — and the country’s most decorated soldier — Ehud Barak, who says withdrawing from the deal would be a “mistake.”

So let’s be clear: On the one side, we have a dizzying array of serving and retired generals and spy chiefs from both the United States and Israel, none of whom are friends or fans of Iran, yet all of whom agree that the Islamic Republic is complying with the stringent terms of the JCPOA, and that the United States should stay in the deal because it bolsters U.S., regional, and global security.

And on the other side? A former property developer and reality TV star; a chicken hawk who wants to bomb everyone; a 32-year-old Gulf prince who can’t win a war against rebels from the poorest Arab country; and an allegedly corrupt politician who has been claiming Iran is “three to five years” away from a nuclear weapons capability since … 1992.

This isn’t about security or protecting American — or Israeli — cities from Iranian missiles. Trump & Co. aren’t trying to avoid war with Iran. They want war with Iran

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

16 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

Gotcha.  That's your opinion, but I trust it about as much as I trust any Southern Baptist preacher...and I don't trust Cult Leaders.

So you and others here have to knock a religious denomination to make a point. I grew up Southern Baptist so I resent the cheap shot. Billy Graham was a Southern Baptist. Guess you didn't like him either.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

2 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

Yep.  

I have no retort.  Stupid definitely is as stupid does.  Trump and his voters exemplify that. 

Seems like you think everybody who disagrees with you is stupid. Guess you were a big Hillary supporter and the rest of us are deplorables.

[NolaAuTiger 3,294]

14 minutes ago, homersapien said:

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/08/donald-trump-iran-nuclear-deal-john-bolton/

.....“This will make America much safer,” the president declaimed, jabbing his fingers at the assembled reporters.

Guess who’s celebrating the president’s decision to violate a nuclear nonproliferation agreement signed by the United States less than three years ago? His new national security adviser, John Bolton, a former paid speaker for an Iranian ex-terror group who has long been obsessed with “regime change” in Tehran; the crown prince — and de facto ruler — of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, who claims Iran’s supreme leader “makes Hitler look good”; and the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, who constantly compares the Islamic Republic to the so-called Islamic State.

Don’t be fooled: This disastrous and unilateral decision by Trump won’t improve U.S. security. Or Israeli security, for that matter. Even card-carrying hawks who hate the Islamic Republic think Trump is mad to pull out of the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA, as the nuclear deal is officially known.

Because guess who won’t be celebrating? The entire U.S. military establishment: Defense Secretary James Mattis, who says he has read the text of the nuclear agreement three times and considers it to be “pretty robust”; Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joseph Dunford, who says, “Iran is adhering to its JCPOA obligations” and a U.S. decision to quit the deal “would have an impact on others’ willingness to sign agreements”; the head of U.S. Strategic Command, Gen. John Hyten, who says, “Iran is in compliance with JCPOA” and argues “it’s our job to live up to the terms of that agreement”; and the head of U.S. Central Command, Gen. Joseph Votel, who says the nuclear deal is “in our interest” because it “addresses one of the principle threats that we deal with from Iran.”

Those are just the generals who are still in uniform. In March, a statementsigned by 100 U.S. national security veterans from across the political spectrum said the nuclear agreement “enhances U.S. and regional security” and “ditching it would serve no national security purpose.” Fifty of the 100 signatories were retired U.S. military officers, including leading Republicans such as retired Gen. Brent Scowcroft, who served as national security adviser to George H.W. Bush, and retired Gen. Michael Hayden, who served as director of both the NSA and the CIA under George W. Bush.

Then there’s retired Gen. Colin Powell, national security adviser to Ronald Reagan and secretary of state under George W. Bush, who has called the JCPOA “a pretty good deal.” And Trump’s own former national security adviser, soon-to-be-retired Gen. H.R. McMaster, who was “working closely with two key senators to prevent Trump from destroying the Iran deal” prior to being fired and replaced with Bolton in March.

Guess who else isn’t celebrating? The Israeli security establishment. Netanyahu may claim to possess thousands of “secret nuclear files” that show the JCPOA was “built on lies,” but Israel’s generals and spymasters disagree, including: the chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, Gen. Gadi Eisenkot, who says the deal “with all its faults is working”; the chair of the Israeli Space Agency and award-winning military scientist, Isaac Ben-Israel, who says “the agreement is not bad at all, it’s even good for Israel” because “it averts an atom bomb for 15 years”; the former director of the spy agency Mossad, Efraim Halevy, who says the JCPOA provides a “credible answer to the Iranian military threat, at least for a decade, if not longer”; the former chief of domestic security agency Shin Bet, Carmi Gillon, who says the nuclear agreement has helped “make the region, and the world, a safer place”; the former head of Israeli military intelligence, Amos Yadlin, who says “tearing up the deal would create a dangerous void”; and former Israeli prime minister — and the country’s most decorated soldier — Ehud Barak, who says withdrawing from the deal would be a “mistake.”

So let’s be clear: On the one side, we have a dizzying array of serving and retired generals and spy chiefs from both the United States and Israel, none of whom are friends or fans of Iran, yet all of whom agree that the Islamic Republic is complying with the stringent terms of the JCPOA, and that the United States should stay in the deal because it bolsters U.S., regional, and global security.

And on the other side? A former property developer and reality TV star; a chicken hawk who wants to bomb everyone; a 32-year-old Gulf prince who can’t win a war against rebels from the poorest Arab country; and an allegedly corrupt politician who has been claiming Iran is “three to five years” away from a nuclear weapons capability since … 1992.

This isn’t about security or protecting American — or Israeli — cities from Iranian missiles. Trump & Co. aren’t trying to avoid war with Iran. They want war with Iran

They have him figured out now!!

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

2 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

Sorry that you're definitely NOT up to speed with what is going on in that region.   As Homer said, that is old info.  You might like to try not getting your info from Pravda...

I wouldn't trust Netanyahu, nor the Israelis as far as I can spit.  And I can spit pretty far...

Trusting the Israelis is like trusting a bammer not to claim 15 + Natty's...

We honestly do not give a rip how far you can spit.

[NolaAuTiger 3,294]

2 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

Sorry that you're definitely NOT up to speed with what is going on in that region.   As Homer said, that is old info.  You might like to try not getting your info from Pravda...

I wouldn't trust Netanyahu, nor the Israelis as far as I can spit.  And I can spit pretty far...

Trusting the Israelis is like trusting a bammer not to claim 15 + Natty's...

They do have 15+

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, NolaAuTiger said:

They do have 15+

[NolaAuTiger 3,294]

1 hour ago, Brad_ATX said:

see? I guess 17

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

30 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

see? I guess 17

Much better breakdown here.  Always, always remember the sham that is their claim to the 1941 title where Bama finished 20th in the AP poll.  Don't believe anything those rat-bastards in West Vance say.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/alabama-football/many-national-titles-alabama-actually-won/

[NolaAuTiger 3,294]

2 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Much better breakdown here.  Always, always remember the sham that is their claim to the 1941 title where Bama finished 20th in the AP poll.  Don't believe anything those rat-bastards in West Vance say.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/alabama-football/many-national-titles-alabama-actually-won/

Only kidding 

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

10 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

So you and others here have to knock a religious denomination to make a point. I grew up Southern Baptist so I resent the cheap shot. Billy Graham was a Southern Baptist. Guess you didn't like him either.

I definitely didn't care for him nor his incredible lack of knowledge of the Gospel.  His was a Gospel of fear and cheap grace.  And power, money and policy making. 

  

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

19 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

They do have 15+

I miss the days when we flushed people. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,294]

3 hours ago, GiveEmElle said:

I miss the days when we flushed people. 

I’m an Auburn man. No worries

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

14 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

I definitely didn't care for him nor his incredible lack of knowledge of the Gospel.  His was a Gospel of fear and cheap grace.  And power, money and policy making. 

  

You have to have a huge ego to think you know more about the Bible than Billy Graham.

[Mikey 16,545]

5 hours ago, GiveEmElle said:

I miss the days when we flushed people. 

I don't remember "flushing people" to ever be much of a factor here, unless they were rude or continued to break rules after being warned. Flushing people for their opinions, as unpopular as their opinions might be, is nothing but censorship.