Creating more terrorists.

[homersapien 11,352]

Someone responded in a different thread to a comment about Obama killing lots of terrorists as  "yeah and created a lot more".  That's probably true.

Here's an example of Trump creating more terrorists without killing any.

Ivanka Trump Opens U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem During Israeli Massacre of Palestinians in Gaza

IN A GRAPHIC demonstration of disregard for the lives and rights of Palestinians, a smiling Ivanka Trump welcomed Israeli dignitaries to the new U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem on Monday, while, just 60 miles away in Gaza, Israel’s armed forces shot hundreds of Palestinian protesters, killing at least 52.

Read the full article at: 

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/14/ivanka-trump-opens-u-s-embassy-jerusalem-israeli-massacre-palestinians/

[WDavE 332]

Do you even wonder at all what the goal was for those trying to get into Israel? Do you think it was to greet and hug Israelis and congratulate them on the 70 anniversary of Israel coming into being?

The Palestinians want East Jerusalem as their capital. In 1967 it was controlled by Jordan not Palestine. In fact in 1948 it was also.

 

It's hard to negotiate with people who chant death to you everyday.

 

 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

55 minutes ago, WDavE said:

Do you even wonder at all what the goal was for those trying to get into Israel? Do you think it was to greet and hug Israelis and congratulate them on the 70 anniversary of Israel coming into being?

The Palestinians want East Jerusalem as their capital. In 1967 it was controlled by Jordan not Palestine. In fact in 1948 it was also.

 

It's hard to negotiate with people who chant death to you everyday.

 

 

Well their land was basically taken from them and handed to another group of people by the world community.  And since that time, they've had no country of their own to call home.  Right or wrong, I can understand their frustrations.

[homersapien 11,352]

2 hours ago, WDavE said:

Do you even wonder at all what the goal was for those trying to get into Israel? Do you think it was to greet and hug Israelis and congratulate them on the 70 anniversary of Israel coming into being?

The Palestinians want East Jerusalem as their capital. In 1967 it was controlled by Jordan not Palestine. In fact in 1948 it was also.

 

It's hard to negotiate with people who chant death to you everyday.

 

 

That's a superficial, non-historical view.  Unfortunately, its an all too typical view in this country.

Perhaps their goal was to provide for a demonstration to the world.  Not all that different - except for the amount of bloodshed - than the march across the Pettis Bridge. 

Trump's moving the embassy is pretty much condemned by all governments that understand the solution, including our allies.  It sets our negotiating position back by decades, not to mention the sheer prospect for peace. 

This was not something that advanced American or the interests of a lasting peace in the Mid East.  It was done purely for his own, personal aggrandizement.  That's who he is.  

It also illustrates there is no win/win in Trump's universe.  In a two party conflict, one must win and the other lose.  It's a terrible thing for the US to make such an overt political choice in this situation.  It's digging us even deeper into the diplomatic hole the Iraqi war created.

 

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

36 minutes ago, homersapien said:

That's a superficial, non-historical view.  Unfortunately, its an all too typical view in this country.

Perhaps their goal was to provide for a demonstration to the world.  Not all that different - except for the amount of bloodshed - than the march across the Pettis Bridge. 

Trump's moving the embassy is pretty much condemned by all governments that understand the solution, including our allies.  It sets our negotiating position back by decades, not to mention the sheer prospect for peace. 

This was not something that advanced American or the interests of a lasting peace in the Mid East.  It was done purely for his own, personal aggrandizement.  That's who he is.  

It also illustrates there is no win/win in Trump's universe.  In a two party conflict, one must win and the other lose.  It's a terrible thing for the US to make such an overt political choice in this situation.  It's digging us even deeper into the diplomatic hole the Iraqi war created.

 

You have obviously searched to find yet another slam Trump article. Come on Homer. You know, at least those people kill one another for a reason. We kill as many in Chicago for no reason.

http://voice-wilderness.com/biblical-roots-of-the-middle-east-conflict/

[homersapien 11,352]

2 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

You have obviously searched to find yet another slam Trump article. Come on Homer. You know, at least those people kill one another for a reason. We kill as many in Chicago for no reason.

http://voice-wilderness.com/biblical-roots-of-the-middle-east-conflict/

It's called the news.  And it's not "fake".

And please, that's not a credible diversion from the immediate facts.  

So, do you think we should be doubling down on taking sides in the ME.  Do we support Israel and alienate Muslims regardless of what might make a mediating process possible.

Do you feel this is furthering biblically-based myths on Armegeddon and the "second coming"?

Tell us. 

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

It's called the news.  And it's not "fake".

And please, that's not a credible diversion from the immediate facts.  

So, do you think we should be doubling down on taking sides in the ME.  Do we support Israel and alienate Muslims regardless of what might make a mediating process possible.

Do you feel this is furthering biblically-based myths on Armegeddon and the "second coming"?

Tell us. 

Never said it was " fake news".I said you search and post a slam Trump article. 

No, we are not furthering a " Biblical based myth ". 

[homersapien 11,352]

8 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Never said it was " fake news".I said you search and post a slam Trump article. 

No, we are not furthering a " Biblical based myth ". 

I didn't "search" anything.  I keep up with current events. 

This particular one has been anticipated for months.  It's a big deal.  Far bigger than most Americans appreciate.

Now, go back and stick your head in the sand, where you are comfortable.

[HVAU 673]

I wonder how much of this relates back to oil prices.  Turmoil in the region definitely benefits Saudi Arabia and Russia as an upward trend in oil prices have begun.  Iran gets a piece of that pie as well.  

With Kushner courting MBS in Saudi Arabia with a healthy dose of corruption, and the administration making the Jerusalem move while simultaneously turning from the JPCOA, Israel rattling sabers at Iran's operations in Syria while Russia, and to a lesser degree, China, looks on, and Bolton and the hawks off the bench, a lot of profit is available in the theatre of conflict.

If it blows up it'll take some medieval tactics to prevent a new surge of terrorism.

Edit: In other words, from the perspective of the powers that be, Palestinians are expendable pawns in the oil game.

If anyone is up on it please let me know, how downward pressure on prices is going with the newer extraction technologies/discoveries?  Are the above concerns all chicken little when that's factored in?

 

 

[japantiger 4,051]

8 hours ago, homersapien said:

It's called the news.  And it's not "fake".

And please, that's not a credible diversion from the immediate facts.  

So, do you think we should be doubling down on taking sides in the ME.  Do we support Israel and alienate Muslims regardless of what might make a mediating process possible.

Do you feel this is furthering biblically-based myths on Armegeddon and the "second coming"?

Tell us. 

Do we take sides...of course we take sides....we take the side of reasonable people that want peace.  Supporting Israel doesn't have to "alienate Muslims"....reasonable people understand the tradeoff.   Your proposition is false as is the logic (and by that I mean illogic) used by Obama and his chronies for justifying the Iran deal.  Israel isn't creating more terrorists....Palestinian parents are creating more terrorists. 

I post two articles below that show the views and motives of the actors involved in a path forward.  You can either stick to the status quo of the last 40 years; placate the palestinian mob; support those that have no interest in peace and thus make no progress  .... or you can try a different path.  Recognizing Israel and guaranteeing a Palestinian homeland are not mutually exclusive...and in fact are the only path forward.  But understand, Israel security needs are not the only impediment to a Palestinian homeland.  The Jordanians and other Arab states in the region could have already solved that...they've have no interest in it.  At least the Saudi's are finally owning up to this.  

 Or, are you seriously proposing that Iran and the current Palestinian leadership are actually serious, rational or honest actors in this process?  perhaps you think peace is possible with a group of folks that rejects Israel's right to exist as a starting and ending point for all paths forward?   

 

Prince Mohammed pointed out that "there are a lot of interests we share with Israel" and that "if there is peace there would be a lot of interest between Israel and the Gulf Cooperation Council countries [Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates]."

https://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/saudi-crown-prince-makes-surprising-statement-that-jews-have-a-right-to-israel.html

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/171565-180405-palestinian-factions-slam-saudi-crown-prince-for-israel-statement

[homersapien 11,352]

4 hours ago, japantiger said:

Do we take sides...of course we take sides....we take the side of reasonable people that want peace.  Supporting Israel doesn't have to "alienate Muslims"....reasonable people understand the tradeoff.   Your proposition is false as is the logic (and by that I mean illogic) used by Obama and his chronies for justifying the Iran deal.  Israel isn't creating more terrorists....Palestinian parents are creating more terrorists. 

I post two articles below that show the views and motives of the actors involved in a path forward.  You can either stick to the status quo of the last 40 years; placate the palestinian mob; support those that have no interest in peace and thus make no progress  .... or you can try a different path.  Recognizing Israel and guaranteeing a Palestinian homeland are not mutually exclusive...and in fact are the only path forward.  But understand, Israel security needs are not the only impediment to a Palestinian homeland.  The Jordanians and other Arab states in the region could have already solved that...they've have no interest in it.  At least the Saudi's are finally owning up to this.  

 Or, are you seriously proposing that Iran and the current Palestinian leadership are actually serious, rational or honest actors in this process?  perhaps you think peace is possible with a group of folks that rejects Israel's right to exist as a starting and ending point for all paths forward?   

 

Prince Mohammed pointed out that "there are a lot of interests we share with Israel" and that "if there is peace there would be a lot of interest between Israel and the Gulf Cooperation Council countries [Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates]."

https://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/saudi-crown-prince-makes-surprising-statement-that-jews-have-a-right-to-israel.html

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/171565-180405-palestinian-factions-slam-saudi-crown-prince-for-israel-statement

The only way peace will come to the ME is through a negoiated settlement between the Jews and the Palestinians.  And the only way that is likely to happen is with the US acting as an honest broker, which is what we have traditionally tried to do. (Since Israel’s founding in 1948, no U.S. president had recognized the contested city as Israel’s capital—the city’s ultimate status was to be determined by negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians, both of whom claim it as their capital.)

But Hey, break a 70-year precedent, what could possibly go wrong?

Trumps actions effectively destroys our potential role as an honest broker - although a case can be made that the war with Iraq did that already.

We will be now be seen as clearly and unequivically aligned with Israel in opposition to Palestinian rights.  In a broader sense - again, partially in part to the Iraq war as well as many other smaller indicators such as the outspoken right wing Christian "representatives" who attended the embassy opening - Muslims as a whole increasingly consider us the enemy.  This is not good. For anyone.

And you have it exactly wrong with your comments about parents encouraging their children to become terrorists.  More typically, Muslim parents in both the Middle East and in Europe are horrified over their kids leaving to join ISIS.  They are being persuaded over the internet. The violence being sparked by moving the embassy - as well as the move itself - provides more ammo for terrorist recruitment. 

I suggest Souad Mekhennet's book.  She is a German-born Muslim journalist who interviewed various terrorist leaders and young converts, along with their families.  It's an eye-opening perspective of the other side.

The United States has nothing to gain by overtly choosing sides in this mess but a lot to lose. 

This will go on for generations.  If we aren't prepared to function as part of the solution, we should just stay out altogether.  Let Israel figure it out on their own.

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

55 minutes ago, homersapien said:

(Since Israel’s founding in 1948, no U.S. president had recognized the contested city as Israel’s capital—the city’s ultimate status was to be determined by negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians, both of whom claim it as their capital.)

But Hey, break a 70-year precedent, what could possibly go wrong?

Another campaign promise kept Brother Homer

“I continue to say that Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel, and I have said that before, and I will say it again,” President Barack Obama said at an AIPAC conference. “And Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.”

http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/14/watch-obama-clinton-bush-say-jerusalem-israel-capital/

[AU64 10,122]

13 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Another campaign promise kept Brother Homer

“I continue to say that Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel, and I have said that before, and I will say it again,” President Barack Obama said at an AIPAC conference. “And Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.”

http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/14/watch-obama-clinton-bush-say-jerusalem-israel-capital/

Everyone knows they did not mean that....were just courting the Jewish vote.....no real intent to carry out the commitment.  

Trump was foolish enough to make that same comment and then take action thinking that people actually expected him to do what he said.  

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/387566-schumer-applauds-trump-on-moving-us-embassy-to-jerusalem

Gotta give Chuck some credit for not bailing out on this issue.....

[homersapien 11,352]

56 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Another campaign promise kept Brother Homer

“I continue to say that Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel, and I have said that before, and I will say it again,” President Barack Obama said at an AIPAC conference. “And Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.”

http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/14/watch-obama-clinton-bush-say-jerusalem-israel-capital/

To whatever extent Obama implied the Palestinians should be excluded, he was wrong also.  And you will note that after pandering to the Israeli political pact, both Bush and Obama did nothing. 

They were aware of the consequences and how it would impact the possibility  of long term piece.

Trump is a narcissistic psychopath who knows nothing about history and doesn't anticipate consequences.  He did this to make a personal "splash" in the world.  It was stupid.  Pretty much every world leader agrees.

 

 

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

11 minutes ago, homersapien said:

To whatever extent Obama implied the Palestinians should be excluded, he was wrong also.  And you will note that after pandering to the Israeli political pact, both Bush and Obama did nothing.  They were aware of the consequences and how it would impact the possibility  of long term piece.

Trump is a narcissistic psychopath who knows nothing about history.  He did this to make a "splash" in the world.  It was stupid.  Pretty much every world leader agrees.

 

 

It was Bush and Clinton that did not keep the campaign promises by doing nothing. They were also pandering to evangelicals. Several religious leaders expressed concern over reactions after the Trump announcement if you recall.

[homersapien 11,352]

20 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

It was Bush and Clinton that did not keep the campaign promises by doing nothing. They were also pandering to evangelicals. Several religious leaders expressed concern over reactions after the Trump announcement if you recall.

Yep.  Politicians from both sides of the isle have pandered to the Israeli lobby for decades.  It's past time we stopped doing so.  As for evangelicals, it's beyond insane to pander to apocalyptic theories, by definition.

But pandering aside, both Bush and Clinton knew better than to generate such animosity for no good reason.  It's certainly not in the long term interest of our country and they understood that.

We will continue to pay a price for our actual - much less perceived - bias toward Israel. 

[homersapien 11,352]

US Embassy opening in Jerusalem is nail in coffin of peace process

By James Zogby

Editors Note: James Zogby is co-founder and president of the Arab American Institute. He is director of Zogby Research Services, a firm that conducts surveys across the Middle East. He served two terms as an Obama appointee to the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, and is the author of Arab Voices. The opinions expressed in this commentary are his.

 

(CNN) The opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem is dangerous, reckless and cruelly insensitive to the Palestinian people. The smiling Israeli and American guests at the opening ceremony on Monday -- juxtaposed with the deadly protests occurring on Gaza's border, where Israeli military forces have killed dozens of demonstrators -- only highlights how removed from reality the Trump administration is.

And the White House's invitation to two pastors, both of whom are known for making bigoted remarks toward other faiths, particularly Islam, to be part of the ceremony can only be seen as further evidence of the administration's thoughtlessness.

While we have all grown weary of hearing the mantra -- "this is the end of the peace process" -- Trump's decision may indeed be the nail in the coffin for any negotiated solution. In the first place, there is no peace process. It had instead been replaced by Israelis and Palestinians waiting for Trump aides to cook up "the deal of the century" -- that is, until Donald Trump made his Jerusalem announcement in December.

And the situation has only deteriorated since.

From the beginnings of the modern "peace process," there have been two fatal flaws that have hampered the effort: the asymmetry of power in Israel's favor and the clear US bias in support of Israel. Trump's action has accented both flaws. It has emboldened and rewarded the most hardline and intransigent elements in Israel, while weakening and compromising those Palestinian and Arab leaders who have put their trust in the United States. Since the United States under Trump doesn't even pretend to be an honest broker, the President's follow-up appeal to both sides -- to continue to focus on achieving peace -- doesn't pass the smell test.

It must be recalled that when Congress passed the Jerusalem Embassy Act in 1995, its Republican authors, working with Israel's Likud Party, or conservative party, viewed it as a poison pill that would sabotage the then still barely operational Oslo Peace Process. The legislation was a GOP/Likud slap in the face of both Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and President Bill Clinton.

The reason why US presidents, including Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama, have used the act's waiver provision to defer its implementation was precisely to avoid this poison pill and to preserve some US peacemaking credibility. The pill has now been swallowed.

What the authors of the act and anti-peace forces in Israel and the United States knew was that Jerusalem is not to be toyed with. It is central to the narratives of all three Abrahamic faiths. For this reason, the architects of the UN partition plan set it aside as an international zone. When Israel entered the western side of the city in 1948 and later declared Jerusalem as its capital, the international community refused to recognize this decision. When Israel annexed a substantial area of Palestinian land in 1967 and declared the entirety of West and East Jerusalem as "Greater Jerusalem," insisting that it was its "eternal undivided capital," once again the international community did not accept this decision. Trump's action, however, puts the US stamp of approval on Israel's record of unilateral decision-making that runs counter to the resolutions of the United Nations and other international bodies.

For Arabs and Muslims worldwide, Jerusalem has become a powerful symbol, representing a century of betrayal by the West. Like the issue of Palestine itself, mention of Jerusalem evokes broken promises, brutal occupation by imperial and colonial powers, loss of control of history and denial of fundamental rights. Jerusalem is the wound in the heart of Arabs and Muslims that never healed. With his callous embassy move, Trump rubbed salt into this wound.

It was therefore absurdly insensitive and galling for the US President to couple his provocation with an appeal to Palestinians to remain calm and peaceful. He was, in effect, saying "I don't care what you have suffered, nor do I care how unjust and illegal Israeli actions may have been. Just sit back and take it."

The misguided among us may celebrate this embassy opening as a "promise kept" by this President, but for the overwhelming majority of the world, this will be remembered as the day Trump solidified the US role as a participant on Israel's project of dispossessing Palestinians of their rights, and the day his administration dealt yet another critical blow against the already weak prospect of peace.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/14/opinions/embassy-jerusalem-move-end-peace-process-zogby/index.html

[japantiger 4,051]

Keep the faith Homey...gotta love the way you keep trotting out purveyors of the status quo...since they've been so successful.  Why wouldn't I listen to the people who've supported the current mess?  what could go wrong?    As Patton once said; "if eveyrones thinking alike, then no ones thinking"....You guys never cease to amaze me on what issues you say "we should and should not" take sides in in the ME ....let's see, do a stupid deal with the Iranians; send them $150B to sponsor more terror; but just like the anti-semitic Europeans,  side against Israel and favor those trying to kill them.    Unashamedly supporting the only liberal democracy in the region is the right thing to do.... even the Saudi's see that....the only place in the ME where an Arab has rights and free expression is in Israel....

Oh, and maybe you should google "Palestinian terrorist children" and see what you come up with...the UN has a bit to say about that.  My favorite is the kindergarden graduatioon video where 6 year olds are taught how to raid Israeli homes in combined arms attacks...man, gotta love those peace loving parents...so much love.

[homersapien 11,352]

1 hour ago, japantiger said:

Keep the faith Homey...gotta love the way you keep trotting out purveyors of the status quo...since they've been so successful.  - blah blah blah - Unashamedly supporting the only liberal democracy in the region is the right thing to do.... even the Saudi's see that....the only place in the ME where an Arab has rights and free expression is in Israel....

Are you suggesting it's a good idea to simply drop any remaining pretense of supporting a bilateral solution regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?   

In favor of what - formal recognition we are taking sides with Israel, right or wrong? 

I just don't see how that can possibly be in our best interests.

Trump sees himself as exuding strength with this sort of action, the fact it was a campaign promise simply confirms it.   

He continues to do damage to our country that will take decades to repair.

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

57 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Are you suggesting it's a good idea to simply drop any remaining pretense of supporting a bilateral solution regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?   

In favor of what - formal recognition we are taking sides with Israel, right or wrong? 

I just don't see how that can possibly be in our best interests.

Trump sees himself as exuding strength with this sort of action, the fact it was a campaign promise simply confirms it.   

He continues to do damage to our country that will take decades to repair.

Centuries Brother Homer. This bum has destroyed the perfect order that he inherited.

[japantiger 4,051]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

Are you suggesting it's a good idea to simply drop any remaining pretense of supporting a bilateral solution regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?   

In favor of what - formal recognition we are taking sides with Israel, right or wrong? 

I just don't see how that can possibly be in our best interests.

Trump sees himself as exuding strength with this sort of action, the fact it was a campaign promise simply confirms it.   

He continues to do damage to our country that will take decades to repair.

Yes.  that's not hard.  We didn't ask the UK and Germany to give concessions to the Russians during the cold war in the interest of supporting a bilateral solution.  You don't give in to thugs....you make it clear who has the leverage; and it isn't them.  The "noble" Palestinians are Hamas for crying out loud.  There are no moderates to be dealt with in that leadership.  They were offered the world by Bush and they walked away.  That ship sailed.  You need to make it so painful that the people will replace the madmen.  Start taking things off the table....         

You want to be clear on what he has destroyed?  North Korea situation?  ISIS?    Embassy to Jerusalem (that his 3 predecessors promised and never did)?  Iran deal?  You certainly can't mean anything related to the economy; best in 15 years....we now have more job openings than unemployed for the 1st time ever.  And everyone has more $$ in their pocket than before...the only thing beyond repair is the Democrat party and possibly your psyche...

[japantiger 4,051]

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

11 hours ago, homersapien said:

Are you suggesting it's a good idea to simply drop any remaining pretense of supporting a bilateral solution regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?   

In favor of what - formal recognition we are taking sides with Israel, right or wrong? 

I just don't see how that can possibly be in our best interests.

Trump sees himself as exuding strength with this sort of action, the fact it was a campaign promise simply confirms it.   

He continues to do damage to our country that will take decades to repair.

Yep. Obama’s legacy was weak... that’s why it was so easy to dismantle.

[homersapien 11,352]

13 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Centuries Brother Homer. This bum has destroyed the perfect order that he inherited.

Right.  Things couldn't possibly get worse.  

[homersapien 11,352]

Trump, Gaza, and the “blank check” approach to Israel

Trump is transforming America’s Israel policy into something new: completely unconditional support.

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/5/15/17355628/gaza-embassy-jerusalem-trump-policy