SEC Baseball Tourney thread

[Mikey 16,566]

11 hours ago, ellitor said:

Agreed.

So Mikey do you want to take me up on my friendly wager that Daniel doesn't get the start Sunday if we win tonight getting Mitchell the start Saturday?

Being sick of the other discussion, I won't wager but I will make a statement. Unless a pitcher did something bad to his arm the last time out, four days in between starts is fully adequate and is NOT "risking a pitcher's health". The only reason college pitchers normally make only one start a week is because of how the college schedule is set up. There's no reason a kid couldn't pitch 9 innings in one of the Tuesday mid-week games and come back and go another 9 Sunday. I suspect that if one cared enough to look around, some teams are doing exactly that without any health risks.

I do not think the Kentucky coach "abused" his starter in Tuesday's game, as some implied. He had normal rest and did what pitchers are expected to do and enjoy doing: pitching.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

10 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Being sick of the other discussion, I won't wager but I will make a statement. Unless a pitcher did something bad to his arm the last time out, four days in between starts is fully adequate and is NOT "risking a pitcher's health". The only reason college pitchers normally make only one start a week is because of how the college schedule is set up. There's no reason a kid couldn't pitch 9 innings in one of the Tuesday mid-week games and come back and go another 9 Sunday. I suspect that if one cared enough to look around, some teams are doing exactly that without any health risks.

I do not think the Kentucky coach "abused" his starter in Tuesday's game, as some implied. He had normal rest and did what pitchers are expected to do and enjoy doing: pitching.

You're correct if we're talking about professional ball, but we're not.  College pitchers aren't conditioned to go for long outings every five days.  Even then, pros slowly build up their pitch count in the spring to be able to do it.

You act like a pitcher can just do this on a whim without conditioning their arms for it.  Sorry, but doesn't work that way.  If a pitcher hasn't thrown on that short of rest all year, they are bound to be fatigued earlier.

Now, I do think you could see DD for an inning or two if we go the distance this week, because it would be his normal side day.  But a full start would be very surprising.

[auburntiger1987 759]

Proud that this team battled til the last out. Says a lot to me about this team. Casey had a couple bad pitches that cost a few runs but a hell of a performance. Need to regroup and take another game from ole miss. War Eagle

[ellitor 33,080]

1 hour ago, Brad_ATX said:

You're correct if we're talking about professional ball, but we're not.  College pitchers aren't conditioned to go for long outings every five days.  Even then, pros slowly build up their pitch count in the spring to be able to do it.

You act like a pitcher can just do this on a whim without conditioning their arms for it.  Sorry, but doesn't work that way.  If a pitcher hasn't thrown on that short of rest all year, they are bound to be fatigued earlier.

Now, I do think you could see DD for an inning or two if we go the distance this week, because it would be his normal side day.  But a full start would be very surprising.

Because clicking an emoji is not enough...

[ellitor 33,080]

AU loses to aTm 4-2. Scheduled to play Ole Miss today at 3 CT in an elimination game. Updated braket...

[Harp_AU2013 221]

Who takes the mound today? Mitchell? 

[ellitor 33,080]

19 minutes ago, Harp_AU2013 said:

Who takes the mound today? Mitchell? 

Yep!

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

2 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

You're correct if we're talking about professional ball, but we're not.  College pitchers aren't conditioned to go for long outings every five days.  Even then, pros slowly build up their pitch count in the spring to be able to do it.

You act like a pitcher can just do this on a whim without conditioning their arms for it.  Sorry, but doesn't work that way.  If a pitcher hasn't thrown on that short of rest all year, they are bound to be fatigued earlier.

Now, I do think you could see DD for an inning or two if we go the distance this week, because it would be his normal side day.  But a full start would be very surprising.

The arm and shoulder stress are cumulative so there is a tipping point in every pitcher's career. The goal should be to postpone it as long as possible and to protect a pitcher's possible future in MLB. It's not fair to a talented college  pitcher to ride him like a rented mule and take unnecessary risks. Even if the kid can't see the danger the coach should protect him. CBT does a great job with his pitchers. That KY coach is questionable IMHO.

[mustache eagle 2,397]

I know Auburn’s pitching situatuon.

Can anybody lay out what their best guess is if the ole miss situation.  I don’t know what their rotation is, who they’ll throw today or the quality of their pen/remaining arms ...

thanks

(this baseball stuff has jacked up my work week)

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 minute ago, mustache eagle said:

I know Auburn’s pitching situatuon.

Can anybody lay out what their best guess is if the ole miss situation.  I don’t know what their rotation is, who they’ll throw today or the quality of their pen/remaining arms ...

thanks

(this baseball stuff has jacked up my work week)

OM is throwing their #3 starter today.  Their pen honestly isn't that great, so if we can get to them, we have a good shot.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

7 minutes ago, Tigerbelle said:

The arm and shoulder stress are cumulative so there is a tipping point in every pitcher's career. The goal should be to postpone it as long as possible and to protect a pitcher's possible future in MLB. It's not fair to a talented college  pitcher to ride him like a rented mule and take unnecessary risks. Even if the kid can't see the danger the coach should protect him. CBT does a great job with his pitchers. That KY coach is questionable IMHO.

BT has been very good about managing pitchers.  I still think the KY situation was a bit different since they don't have a guarantee to make the NCAA tournament and really needed that win.  Have to balance what's right for the kid with what's right for the team there.  Hopefully that kid gets to rest until at least next Friday if they do make it in.

For example, if we're in the CWS and need a guy to pitch on shorter rest than usual to win, you're damn right I'm putting him out there as a coach.  But it's a rare example, kind of like the KY situation.  Not often one game can potentially make or break a baseball season.

[Mikey 16,566]

7 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

You're correct if we're talking about professional ball, but we're not.  College pitchers aren't conditioned to go for long outings every five days.  Even then, pros slowly build up their pitch count in the spring to be able to do it.

You act like a pitcher can just do this on a whim without conditioning their arms for it.  Sorry, but doesn't work that way.  If a pitcher hasn't thrown on that short of rest all year, they are bound to be fatigued earlier.

Now, I do think you could see DD for an inning or two if we go the distance this week, because it would be his normal side day.  But a full start would be very surprising.

It's nearly the end of the season. If they aren't conditioned by mid-May that indicates a failure in coaching.

[WarEagle2423 357]

Hypothetically, let's say we win today with Mitchell. Who relieves him today? And who do we start in the potential semifinal and final games? 

My best guess would be Greenhill or Welby as a reliever today. If not Greenhill tonight, then I think he starts tomorrow. Or Jack Owen. 

Also, just for fun while we are waiting, what do y'all think our pitching rotation looks like next year? I'm not sure who we will have coming in. I'm sure we will bring in some young arms. But I see it being Burns, Daniel, Greenhill/Owen on the weekends. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

26 minutes ago, Mikey said:

It's nearly the end of the season. If they aren't conditioned by mid-May that indicates a failure in coaching.

That's asinine.  You wouldn't ask a major league closer to throw 7 innings in September just because it's near the end of the season.  Those pitchers simply aren't used to long outings and it would not be a failure of conditioning.  Players condition for their roles.  To ask a player like DD to throw another long outing so quickly when he's not used to it is off the charts dumb.  Especially because the SEC Tournament, while fun, is not the end goal for this team.  That would be Omaha.  To achieve that end goal, we'll need a healthy and fresh Davis Daniel.

[Mikey 16,566]

@Brad_ATX

Quote: "Players condition for their roles.".  Exactly, and DD is considered to be a starter.

Quote: "You wouldn't ask a major league closer to throw 7 innings in September..."  DD is not a closer.

He's conditioned by now and should be ready to go Sunday. If he's not, our coaches have been failing and I do think our coaching staff is well qualified and very, very interested in the pitching staff. The only reason he couldn't/shouldn't go Sunday is some arm trouble that the public is not aware of.

[ellitor 33,080]

25 minutes ago, WarEagle2423 said:

Also, just for fun while we are waiting, what do y'all think our pitching rotation looks like next year? I'm not sure who we will have coming in. I'm sure we will bring in some young arms. But I see it being Burns, Daniel, Greenhill/Owen on the weekends.  

Actually the staff is hopeful to have Greenhill as a weekend starter next season & moving Davis Daniel to the closer role if DD doesn't leave for the pros. Lefty newcomer Garrett Wade & righty.Blake Rivera are candidates to be starters next season although the staff is concerned about Wade's draft stock.

[WarEagle2423 357]

15 minutes ago, ellitor said:

Actually the staff is hopeful to have Greenhill as a weekend starter next season & moving Davis Daniel to the closer role if DD doesn't leave for the pros. Lefty newcomer Garrett Wade & righty.Blake Rivera are candidates to be starters next season although the staff is concerned about Wade's draft stock.

Thanks! For some reason, I thought DD was a sophomore. I think Greenhill will be a starter as well. Hope some freshman and Juco guys can come in and take care of the bullpen/midweek games. 

[ellitor 33,080]

Just now, WarEagle2423 said:

I thought DD was a sophomore.

He is but he's already 21 so he's draft eligible.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

19 minutes ago, Mikey said:

@Brad_ATX

Quote: "Players condition for their roles.".  Exactly, and DD is considered to be a starter.

Quote: "You wouldn't ask a major league closer to throw 7 innings in September..."  DD is not a closer.

He's conditioned by now and should be ready to go Sunday. If he's not, our coaches have been failing and I do think our coaching staff is well qualified and very, very interested in the pitching staff. The only reason he couldn't/shouldn't go Sunday is some arm trouble that the public is not aware of.

He's a starter at the college level.  Those guys go once a week.  You keep trying to put professional norms onto a college pitcher by saying he should be able to go every 5th day.  He's conditioned to pitch once a week as a starter.  Depending on the week, it may be every six days if we're playing a Thursday-Saturday series instead of the normal Fri-Sun, but it's still once a week.

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

3 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

BT has been very good about managing pitchers.  I still think the KY situation was a bit different since they don't have a guarantee to make the NCAA tournament and really needed that win.  Have to balance what's right for the kid with what's right for the team there.  Hopefully that kid gets to rest until at least next Friday if they do make it in.

For example, if we're in the CWS and need a guy to pitch on shorter rest than usual to win, you're damn right I'm putting him out there as a coach.  But it's a rare example, kind of like the KY situation.  Not often one game can potentially make or break a baseball season.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. A talented kid like Hjelle should never be forced to gamble his future over one game in college. Any team making it to Omaha more than likely has plenty of talented pitching. There's no need to push one kid past his limit. It doesn't do much for recruiting either.

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

WOW.......fog in Hoover is so thick that they stopped the game. No one can see the ball....very dangerous. 

This is a crazy tournament.  FL is getting pounded 10-0 by LSU. Unreal.

[jw 4 au 526]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I agree with Mikey on this pitching discussion.  This is the end of the season, if a starter is not conditioned to pitch 100 or more and go again when needed (with sense to MLB pitching recommendations) then that is a problem. They are all ramping up for this exact end of the season scenario. I am from Georgia, and in high school we follow the pitch counts recommended by MLB and Dr. James Andrews listed below.   Pitchers pitch this much in HS (we play similar 3 games sets with an off set game) with more work come in the state playoffs.  Then a few weeks practicing with summer ball teams and they all play PG tournaments for another 6 weeks.  PG follows the same or very similar pitch count.  If you read Dr. Andrews books, to be able to pitch to the recommended pitch chart below, stretching (before, after, and between starts), conditioning (between starts), and rest (offseason for 2 months or so) is what is VERY important. Plus stopping a session at the first sign of arm pain, not necessarily fatigue. This is where youth ball coaches who know little about pitching are killing kids arms. There are still tournaments that allow you to pitch a youth 65 pitches in back to back to back games, as long as the inning count is something like 3 or less.  The KY Coach could be considered boarderline with Hjelle but we are not in the bullpen with him between starts.  I would think they know more about his arm than us.  Vast majority of the time when you get to this level, coaches know the deal. Same with our coaches as to what they do with our kids.  Just my 2 cents, for what it is worth!

 

GHSA PITCHING CHARTS

Varsity 110
Sub Varsity 90

REQUIRED REST PERIOD VARSITY
86-110 Pitches. - 3 days
61-85 Pitches. - 2 days. 
36-60 Pitches. - 1 days. 
1-35 Pitches. - 0 days 
NOTE: A pitcher shall not throw more than 110 pitches in a single game or cumulative over a two-day
period. A pitcher shall not pitch more than two consecutive days regardless of the pitch count, at which time a minimum 1-day rest period is required. Double headers are considered two separate games and single game pitch count limitations are in effect. All other rest periods are based on the total pitches thrown.
3 Days 2 Days 1 Day 0 Days

[Mikey 16,566]

1 hour ago, jw 4 au said:

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I agree with Mikey on this pitching discussion.  This is the end of the season, if a starter is not conditioned to pitch 100 or more and go again when needed (with sense to MLB pitching recommendations) then that is a problem. They are all ramping up for this exact end of the season scenario. I am from Georgia, and in high school we follow the pitch counts recommended by MLB and Dr. James Andrews listed below.   Pitchers pitch this much in HS (we play similar 3 games sets with an off set game) with more work come in the state playoffs.  Then a few weeks practicing with summer ball teams and they all play PG tournaments for another 6 weeks.  PG follows the same or very similar pitch count.  If you read Dr. Andrews books, to be able to pitch to the recommended pitch chart below, stretching (before, after, and between starts), conditioning (between starts), and rest (offseason for 2 months or so) is what is VERY important. Plus stopping a session at the first sign of arm pain, not necessarily fatigue. This is where youth ball coaches who know little about pitching are killing kids arms. There are still tournaments that allow you to pitch a youth 65 pitches in back to back to back games, as long as the inning count is something like 3 or less.  The KY Coach could be considered boarderline with Hjelle but we are not in the bullpen with him between starts.  I would think they know more about his arm than us. Vast majority of the time when you get to this level, coaches know the deal. Same with our coaches as to what they do with our kids.  Just my 2 cents, for what it is worth!

 

GHSA PITCHING CHARTS

Varsity 110
Sub Varsity 90

REQUIRED REST PERIOD VARSITY
86-110 Pitches. - 3 days
61-85 Pitches. - 2 days. 
36-60 Pitches. - 1 days. 
1-35 Pitches. - 0 days 
NOTE: A pitcher shall not throw more than 110 pitches in a single game or cumulative over a two-day
period. A pitcher shall not pitch more than two consecutive days regardless of the pitch count, at which time a minimum 1-day rest period is required. Double headers are considered two separate games and single game pitch count limitations are in effect. All other rest periods are based on the total pitches thrown.
3 Days 2 Days 1 Day 0 Days

Excellent, accurate information. Thanks for posting. Also, as your post noted with regard to Hjelle, there are differences in pitchers. Some have a "rubber arm" and can throw more than others.

[ellitor 33,080]

Let's drop the pitcher usage debate & stay on the SEC Tourney please. None of our opinions from the people who have chimed are going to change so it's useless to keep talking about it. We have the same debate on it every year. Nobody's mind changes.

[ellitor 33,080]

Back to the SEC Tourney, Ole Miss eliminated AU 7-0. LSU is up on UF 10-0 in the 6th & will be looking to run-rule them when the game resumes today at 10 AM CT. Winner gets Arky in a semifinal game. Mostly updated bracket...