Football Rules and Interpretations

[oracle79 3,569]

35 minutes ago, WarTiger said:

It should have been blown dead but for some reason it wasn't. 

And didn't they call us offsides on the kickoff the same play?

[Glen from West Glenn Ave 44]

I have a question about the Shaun Shivers run last Saturday.  Once the helmet came of the Bama player, he attempted to tackle Shaun, and I believe that he actually laid his hands on Shaun.  What is the rule about participation without a helmet? 

[WarTiger 3,901]

2 hours ago, Glen from West Glenn Ave said:

I have a question about the Shaun Shivers run last Saturday.  Once the helmet came of the Bama player, he attempted to tackle Shaun, and I believe that he actually laid his hands on Shaun.  What is the rule about participation without a helmet? 

It's a personal foul if they continue to participate after losing the helmet whether they put the helmet back on or not.   However, he really didn't do anything after his helmet came off. He rerached for Shivers but that was it. If this had occurred more in the field of play and not 3-4 yards from the goal line and he moved to try to block or make the tackle, then it would have been a penalty.   I thought it was a good no call.  Here's the rule on it:

Continued Participation Without Helmet
ARTICLE 17. A player whose helmet comes completely off during a down
may not continue to participate beyond the immediate action in which he is
engaged, whether or not he puts the helmet back on during the down. (A.R.
9-1-17-I)

[Wire Road 2]

So, delving into the risky area of trying to understand bammers’ logic— It seems the common excuse that’s emerging is about the clock adjustment and resulting field goal from the first half of the Iron Bowl. Some are calling the time review illegal while others are saying that we shouldn’t have been allowed to get our field goal unit set for play.

Question: Is there any difference between the time review/adjustment scenario from last weekend vs. the similar scenario prior to the Kick Six? (Other than we made the kick!)

We know the bammers are painfully aware of the Kick Six, and the time review seems pretty similar in both situations...I can’t see how they can’t see their own hypocrisy....Is there any rule book minutia they’re trying to base their logic on?

[I_M4_AU 7,783]

1 hour ago, Wire Road said:

Question: Is there any difference between the time review/adjustment scenario from last weekend vs. the similar scenario prior to the Kick Six? (Other than we made the kick!)

The difference is the *Kick Six* the Bama RB ran out of bounds and if that happens the clock doesn’t start until the ball is snapped.  If the clock stops by gaining a first down, the clock starts when the ball is spotted and the chains have been repositioned.  Kind of a running clock.  The review allowed the clock to stop while they reviewed and Auburn was allowed to get it’s FG unit on the field and set up (the key point) to be able to snap the ball on the whistle. 

The team has to be set for at least 1 sec to snap the ball or it it is a penalty (See the 2016 LSU game).  The review allowed Auburn to be set at the whistle and the 1 sec to set did not apply.  Look for Saban to address this in the off season.

[oracle79 3,569]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

and Auburn was allowed to get it’s FG unit on the field and set up

Look for a new "no substitution during reviews" rule to be put in place for next year.

[Wire Road 2]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

The difference is the *Kick Six* the Bama RB ran out of bounds and if that happens the clock doesn’t start until the ball is snapped.  If the clock stops by gaining a first down, the clock starts when the ball is spotted and the chains have been repositioned.  Kind of a running clock.  The review allowed the clock to stop while they reviewed and Auburn was allowed to get it’s FG unit on the field and set up (the key point) to be able to snap the ball on the whistle. 

The team has to be set for at least 1 sec to snap the ball or it it is a penalty (See the 2016 LSU game).  The review allowed Auburn to be set at the whistle and the 1 sec to set did not apply.  Look for Saban to address this in the off season.

Thanks for the breakdown!

[WarTiger 3,901]

4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

The difference is the *Kick Six* the Bama RB ran out of bounds and if that happens the clock doesn’t start until the ball is snapped.  If the clock stops by gaining a first down, the clock starts when the ball is spotted and the chains have been repositioned.  Kind of a running clock.  The review allowed the clock to stop while they reviewed and Auburn was allowed to get it’s FG unit on the field and set up (the key point) to be able to snap the ball on the whistle. 

The team has to be set for at least 1 sec to snap the ball or it it is a penalty (See the 2016 LSU game).  The review allowed Auburn to be set at the whistle and the 1 sec to set did not apply. not entirely true. There's nothing in the book that says being set for 1 second is exempt in any circumstances.  We were just fortunate that they considered us set at the snap enough to allow the play.  Look for Saban to address this in the off season.  Saban doesn't have nearly the control over stuff like this that people think.

That's pretty close except one minor detail.  Crew doesn't wait for the chains to be set only the down box to be at the new line of scrimmage.

Here's the rule on clock adjustments in the replay section:

d. Clock adjustment at the end of any quarter.
If the game clock expires at the end of any quarter, either during a down
in which it should be stopped by rule through play when the ball becomes
dead or after the down upon a request for an available team timeout, the
replay official may restore time only under these conditions:
1. The replay official has indisputable video evidence that time should
have remained on the game clock when the ball became dead or when
the team timeout was granted;
2. In the second and fourth quarters only, the team to which the ball
would belong after it becomes dead would next put the ball in play
from scrimmage (not the try);
3. In the fourth quarter only, either the score is tied or the team that will
next snap the ball is behind by eight points or fewer; and
4. The replay official’s video evidence includes the timeout signal by an
official in the case where the game clock should have stopped for a
requested team timeout.

 

uaters are just butthurt over the fact that we made our field goal with one second and they couldn't. 

 

3 hours ago, oracle79 said:

Look for a new "no substitution during reviews" rule to be put in place for next year.

That will never happen.

[I_M4_AU 7,783]

50 minutes ago, WarTiger said:

That will never happen.

Thanks for weighing in on this, I was hoping you would.  My understanding is only layman and the official ruling is always helpful.

[dmoney 271]

On 7/31/2018 at 12:46 PM, WarTiger said:

Read the last section of the initial post in the thread when I talk about Momentum and then read this play from one of our games vs. Clemson a few years ago.    Officials were right on top of this one and got it exactly right. 

Clemson at Auburn:

Auburn with possession on between the 25-30 yard line (I think). Pass is thrown towards the sideline. Pass is intercepted by a Clemson defender at their own 1 yard line and his momentum takes him a step into the endzone and out the side of the endzone. Where do you spot the ball??

Answer: Spot the ball at the 1 yard line. 1st and 10. Why?

Rule 8-5 exception:

When a Team B player intercepts a forward pass, fumble or backward pass or catches a scrimmage or free kick between his five-yard line and the goal line and the ball carrier’s

original momentum carries him into the end zone, where the ball is declared dead in his team’s possession, the ball belongs to Team B at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or the kick was caught (A.R. 8-5-1-V-VII).

An intercepted pass or fielded scrimmage kick will NEVER be a touchback unless physically CAUGHT in the endzone. If the player catches the ball OUTSIDE the 5 yard line (say the 6) and he ends up in the endzone and is tackled there, this will result in a safety.

Where do the referee?  How long have you been one? 

[WarTiger 3,901]

5 hours ago, dmoney said:

Where do the referee?  How long have you been one? 

I officiate here in Pensacola and I've been doing it for 28 years.  The last 20 as a backjudge.

[dmoney 271]

On 1/14/2020 at 5:01 PM, WarTiger said:

I officiate here in Pensacola and I've been doing it for 28 years.  The last 20 as a backjudge.

I officiate in Birmingham.  8 years(high school) 3 years( college).... Position: Umpire (high school)  Umpire and Center Judge (college).... 

[casatiger 513]

Steve Shaw no longer head of officials in SEC.  

[Newbomb 193]

High School rule interpretation please.  

Team kicks off receiver stands on the one or so, not on the goal line and not in the end zone.  The ball is sailing to the end and will go into it.  The receiver still standing outside the end zone reaches high and touches the ball as it enters the end zone.  Is this a live ball?

[WarTiger 3,901]

5 hours ago, Newbomb said:

High School rule interpretation please.  

Team kicks off receiver stands on the one or so, not on the goal line and not in the end zone.  The ball is sailing to the end and will go into it.  The receiver still standing outside the end zone reaches high and touches the ball as it enters the end zone.  Is this a live ball?

Not really sure what you are asking here. The ball was already live,  but do you mean for the Receiver to be able to advance it or possibly the kicking team recovering it?  If that's what you are asking, then let me answer it this way.  The ball is dead the instant it touches the goal line because by federation rules any kick into the endzone is an automatic touchback. The ball is blown dead when it gets into the endzone, and it doesn't matter where the player is or even if he touches it. If he doesn't secure possession, and it goes into the endzone, its a touchback because the kick doesn't end until the receiving team possesses the ball.  Does that answer your question?

[Newbomb 193]

So if say the kicker kicks a line drive and bounces off a couple of receiving team players and rolls into the end zone its dead in High School football and cant be recovered by the kicking team?

[WarTiger 3,901]

1 hour ago, Newbomb said:

So if say the kicker kicks a line drive and bounces off a couple of receiving team players and rolls into the end zone its dead in High School football and cant be recovered by the kicking team?

That is correct.  It would be a touchback once it gets in the endzone.

[WarTiger 3,901]

Well, we dodged a bullet in the game tonight with Arkansas with the grounding of the ball to stop the clock at the end.   Breaking this down, we all know the QB can legally take the snap and throw the ball into the ground to stop the clock.   But, what some may not know (until tonight) is that if the QB muffs the snap, he can no longer intentionally ground the ball to stop the clock.  He must control the snap to be able to do this legally.    Here's the rule on it:

Illegal Forward Pass
ARTICLE 2. A forward pass is illegal if:

f. The passer to conserve time throws the ball directly to the ground (1)
after the ball has already touched the ground; or (2) not immediately after
controlling the ball.

PENALTY [f-h]—Loss of down at the spot of the foul [S36 and S9].

Now here's where we dodged the bullet (as I'm sure everybody knows).  Nix threw that ball backwards after he muffed the snap.  It was obviously backwards, but because every official fully expected nix to do this, they quickly blew the whistle and signaled incomplete pass.  The ball was still loose when they blew the whistle.  NOBODY had recovered it.  Arkansas tried to fall on it after the whistle but didn't secure possession. 

As a result of the ball not being in possession of anybody there was no choice but to give Auburn the ball for 4th down.

What we technically had here is an inadvertent whistle since it was a backwards pass and the ball was loose.  By rule when there is an inadvertent whistle while the ball is loose and there is no immediate recovery, there are options.  Take the results of the play to the point of the fumble or Replay the down.   Since it was a backwards pass, there really wasn't even a penalty committed there, but the whistle killing the play saved us for certain, IMO. 

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

6 minutes ago, WarTiger said:

Now here's where we dodged the bullet (as I'm sure everybody knows).  Nix threw that ball backwards after he muffed the snap.  It was obviously backwards, but because every official fully expected nix to do this, they quickly blew the whistle and signaled incomplete pass.  The ball was still loose when they blew the whistle.  NOBODY had recovered it.  Arkansas tried to fall on it after the whistle but didn't secure possession. 

As a result of the ball not being in possession of anybody there was no choice but to give Auburn the ball for 4th down.

What we technically had here is an inadvertent whistle since it was a backwards pass and the ball was loose.  By rule when there is an inadvertent whistle while the ball is loose and there is no immediate recovery, there are options.  Take the results of the play to the point of the fumble or Replay the down.   Since it was a backwards pass, there really wasn't even a penalty committed there, but the whistle killing the play saved us for certain, IMO. 

Agree 100 percent. Nix screwed up and then the ref screwing up afforded our Tigers a chance to win. Like I said elsewhere, I've seen too many of these situations go against Auburn. It would suck to be a Hog fan right now but as an AU fan, I'll take it.

War Eagle!

[TXaubie 566]

2 questions in Auburn vs USCe.  Somebody that is tech savvy might could link the plays to that I’m talking about here  

Play #1. 12:15 left in the 3rd quarter——
 DJ Williams run up the middle. Trucks a Gamecock.  AU in semi hurry up.  Ref sets the ball takes his position, Play clock is running,  Bo starts his snap count for next play. Gamecock player that DJ trucked goes down. They blow the whistle and stop what would be the next play. Play clock was started and had run down to :28. My question is what is the rule on that? Seems to me that once the ball is set. It should be on to the next play. Am I wrong in thinking that.  If not, Defenses could use the fake injury To stop the play if they don’t like the formation they are seeing.  I mean Bo had already licked his fingers and was about to hike the ball. The refs are all in postiion and giving there signals for the play clock running down. 
  
 

play #2

end of game  Bo takes the intentions grounding  There is some confusion  the refs Make an announcement that the “incomplete pass” happened at the 38 second mark. So to reset the game clock to :38 then ten second run off  so set the game clock to :28  I’m sure y’all know what I’m talking about, but my question has to do with what happens next.  They started the clock before we snapped it. They set the ball blew the whistle and clock started. By the time we snapped the ball their was 22 seconds left on the clock. So did they do that correct? Is an intentional grounding not considered an incomplete pass and when he made his announcement he just said it wrong by calling it an incomplete pass. Cuz if it’s an incomplete pass the clock shouldn’t have started until we snapped the ball, correct?

[WarTiger 3,901]

35 minutes ago, TXaubie said:

2 questions in Auburn vs USCe.  Somebody that is tech savvy might could link the plays to that I’m talking about here  

Play #1. 12:15 left in the 3rd quarter——
 DJ Williams run up the middle. Trucks a Gamecock.  AU in semi hurry up.  Ref sets the ball takes his position, Play clock is running,  Bo starts his snap count for next play. Gamecock player that DJ trucked goes down. They blow the whistle and stop what would be the next play. Play clock was started and had run down to :28. My question is what is the rule on that? Seems to me that once the ball is set. It should be on to the next play. Am I wrong in thinking that.  If not, Defenses could use the fake injury To stop the play if they don’t like the formation they are seeing.  I mean Bo had already licked his fingers and was about to hike the ball. The refs are all in postiion and giving their signals for the play clock running down. 
  
 

play #2

end of game  Bo takes the intentions grounding  There is some confusion  the refs Make an announcement that the “incomplete pass” happened at the 38 second mark. So to reset the game clock to :38 then ten second run off  so set the game clock to :28  I’m sure y’all know what I’m talking about, but my question has to do with what happens next.  They started the clock before we snapped it. They set the ball blew the whistle and clock started. By the time we snapped the ball their was 22 seconds left on the clock. So did they do that correct? Is an intentional grounding not considered an incomplete pass and when he made his announcement he just said it wrong by calling it an incomplete pass. Cuz if it’s an incomplete pass the clock shouldn’t have started until we snapped the ball, correct?

Play #1

This is entirely related to player safety.  No officiating crew anywhere is going to allow a snap in that situation.  I hate the assumption mentioned here all the time about a fake injury.  There's no way anybody would/could know that.  The game will always be stopped if any of the officials suspect a player injury regardless of when it is recognized.   The play clock will be reset to the appropriate time.  The play clock is set to 25 seconds for an injury time out for an offensive player, and its set to 40 seconds for an injury time out for a defensive player.  This is a change they made 2-3 years ago, I believe. 

 

play #2

If it had been a normal incomplete pass then it would have started on the snap., but because of the 10 second run-off provision (A RULE I HATE), it starts on the ready for play.

Rule 3-4-4c

10 second runoff provision:

c. After the penalty is administered, if there is a 10-second runoff, the game
clock starts on the referee’s signal. If there is no 10-second runoff, the game
clock starts on the snap. Note: This rule supersedes Rule 3-3-2-f. (A. R.
3-3-2-VIII and IX)

 

Does this answer them for you?

[TXaubie 566]

On 10/17/2020 at 6:39 PM, WarTiger said:

Play #1

This is entirely related to player safety.  No officiating crew anywhere is going to allow a snap in that situation.  I hate the assumption mentioned here all the time about a fake injury.  There's no way anybody would/could know that.  The game will always be stopped if any of the officials suspect a player injury regardless of when it is recognized.   The play clock will be reset to the appropriate time.  The play clock is set to 25 seconds for an injury time out for an offensive player, and its set to 40 seconds for an injury time out for a defensive player.  This is a change they made 2-3 years ago, I believe. 

 

play #2

If it had been a normal incomplete pass then it would have started on the snap., but because of the 10 second run-off provision (A RULE I HATE), it starts on the ready for play.

Rule 3-4-4c

10 second runoff provision:

c. After the penalty is administered, if there is a 10-second runoff, the game
clock starts on the referee’s signal. If there is no 10-second runoff, the game
clock starts on the snap. Note: This rule supersedes Rule 3-3-2-f. (A. R.
3-3-2-VIII and IX)

 

Does this answer them for you?

Thank you, Sir!!

[AURex 1,990]

AU vs Ole Miss -- the kickoff call

Here is the way I saw it.

The closest ref was behind Shivers. The ball went past Shivers. Shivers began to pursue. BUT the whistle blew when the ball crossed the goal line. The ref behind Shivers could not see his hands, so assumed that Shivers did not touch the ball, so he blew the play dead when the ball crossed the goal line.  At that point, it was a touchback. End of play. Shivers stopped pursuing the ball.

Okay, we do not know if Shivers actually touched the ball. Only he knows. (The video sure looks like he MIGHT have.) The quick review by the replay officials said they did not see enough evidence to overturn the call on the field.

But what is your take on this? Do you think there was another ref who had a better view? Should the replay officials have stopped play to review?

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by AURex

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

11 hours ago, AURex said:

AU vs Ole Miss -- the kickoff call

Here is the way I saw it.

The closest ref was behind Shivers. The ball went past Shivers. Shivers began to pursue. BUT the whistle blew when the ball crossed the goal line. The ref behind Shivers could not see his hands, so assumed that Shivers did not touch the ball, so he blew the play dead when the ball crossed the goal line.  At that point, it was a touchback. End of play. Shivers stopped pursuing the ball.

Okay, we do not know if Shivers actually touched the ball. Only he knows. (The video sure looks like he MIGHT have.) The quick review by the replay officials said they did not see enough evidence to overturn the call on the field.

But what is your take on this? Do you think there was another ref who had a better view? Should the replay officials have stopped play to review?

 

Once the whistle blows, is there anything after that to even be reviewed? If the whistle blows and players stop (as did Shivers), nothing that comes after matters. At that point the play is dead. Personally I think too much is being made of this one play. As I said in the thread about the play, why isn't the phantom holding call on Tank's kickoff return for a negated TD getting the same attention? 

[steeleagle 2,945]

2 hours ago, CleCoTiger said:

Once the whistle blows, is there anything after that to even be reviewed? If the whistle blows and players stop (as did Shivers), nothing that comes after matters. At that point the play is dead. Personally I think too much is being made of this one play. As I said in the thread about the play, why isn't the phantom holding call on Tank's kickoff return for a negated TD getting the same attention? 

The problem I have is that on 2 occasions when there were confusing plays, our players are NOT following through to make sure there is no doubt who is controlling the ball.

In the Ark game, when Bo made that bad spike, the ball bounces back to side, and Jackson has a chance to fall on it, just in case he needs to, but he is passive, and then an Ark player aggresively tries to recover it, while Jackson is kind of standing there reaching out to try to share the ball.

In the OM game, Shivers allows the KO to bounce in front of him(First mistake), and then kind of reaches out with his hands, and the ball kicks and ends up in endzone( on replay it looks like his finger quivers from the ball touching his finger). But Shiver SHOULD have gone back, regardless of the refs whistle, and grabbed the ball to make sure, if something gets changed, he still has control of the ball. He did not do that.

Our players need to control any ball they are of not sure of the end results. This is 2 plays where they are not sure what to do. 

We are very very lucky we didn't lose those 2 balls, and 2 games bc of it.