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WarTiger

Football Rules and Interpretations

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Oregon game:  I would have expected a flag for ineligible player when Herbert returned to the field after the timeout.  Instead, he was instructed he could not take the field. I assume that was the right call, but doesn’t seem right. 

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14 minutes ago, tigerrules said:

Oregon game:  I would have expected a flag for ineligible player when Herbert returned to the field after the timeout.  Instead, he was instructed he could not take the field. I assume that was the right call, but doesn’t seem right. 

I actually thought he was eligible since the called timeout. 

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3 hours ago, tigerrules said:

Oregon game:  I would have expected a flag for ineligible player when Herbert returned to the field after the timeout.  Instead, he was instructed he could not take the field. I assume that was the right call, but doesn’t seem right. 

It's not an ineligible player and its not a penalty in any way, shape or form.  It was a mix up and the head coach thought the timeout bought his player back in but it doesn't.  An injured player must sit out 1 down and a timeout does not buy the player back into the game.    Not sure what doesn't seem right.  It was corrected, the officials caught it, instructed him to leave the field and its done.  Nothing illegal here.

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8 minutes ago, WarTiger said:

It's not an ineligible player and its not a penalty in any way, shape or form.  It was a mix up and the head coach thought the timeout bought his player back in but it doesn't.  An injured player must sit out 1 down and a timeout does not buy the player back into the game.    Not sure what doesn't seem right.  It was corrected, the officials caught it, instructed him to leave the field and its done.  Nothing illegal here.

Is this different between high school and college?  As far injured player coming back after timeout

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7 minutes ago, LKEEL75 said:

Is this different between high school and college?  As far injured player coming back after timeout

No.  Injured player has to sit out 1 down at both levels.

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On 9/1/2019 at 11:19 AM, LKEEL75 said:

I actually thought he was eligible since the called timeout. 

I thought the same thing.  Wrong!

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7 minutes ago, titletowntiger said:

Does a QB spike to stop the clock count as an incomplete pass?

Of course 

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35 minutes ago, titletowntiger said:

Is there a QB completion statistic that accounts for spikes and throw-aways?

Not officially.  But there are unofficial stats that keep up with spikes, drops and throw aways. 

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New play from yesterday's game.

Tulane in scrimmage kick formation on 4th down and in an attempt to block the punt, Derrick Brown leaps over the group of players in the backfield in front of the kicker.    This is a penalty for Leaping the punt shield.  It's been called in quite a few games since the rule was put in place and Auburn has been the benefit of this call more than once. 

Regardless of that, there was a comment or two in the game thread complaining about how it was enforced.  The argument was it should be enforced after the kick and not allow K to maintain posession.  I'm fairly certain that was written as opinion and nothing more.  However, if we apply just simple common sense to this, there is no choice but to penalize it from the previous spot (meaning where the kicking team snapped the ball for the scrimmage kick (punt).  The primary reason for this is by rule the ball still belongs to the kicking team.  The penalty occurs prior to the kick, so it can't be added to the end of the play after the play. It has to be enforced from the previous spot.  The rule also specifically says (if by team B, automatic first down). 

The book used to specifically mention leaping the punt shield but I'm unable to find that.  I'm thinking its been relocated in the book or merged as part of the rule listed below.

Here's the rule reference for it:

Leverage and Leaping
ARTICLE 11. a. No defensive player, in an attempt to gain an advantage, may
step, jump or stand on an opponent.
b. It is a foul if a defensive player moves forward and tries to block a field goal
or try by leaving his feet and leaping into the plane directly above the frame
of the body of an opponent.

It is not a foul if the player was aligned in a stationary position within one
yard of the line of scrimmage when the ball was snapped.
c. It is a foul if a defensive player who is inside the tackle box tries to block a
punt by leaving his feet and leaping into the plane directly above the frame
of the body of an opponent.

1. It is not a foul if the player tries to block the punt by jumping straight
up without attempting to leap over the opponent.
2. It is not a foul if a player leaps through or over the gap between players.
d. No defensive player, in an attempt to block, bat or catch a kick, may:
1. Step, jump or stand on a teammate.
2. Place a hand(s) on a teammate to get leverage for additional height.
3. Be picked up by a teammate, or be elevated, propelled or pushed.
PENALTY [a-d]—15 yards, previous spot and automatic first down. [S38]

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So I have seen this happen in a quite few different games this season (not just Auburn ones), but what is up with the clock not stopping after a first down to move the chains?? 

Was there a new rule implemented that I didn't hear about? 

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23 hours ago, CT Tiger said:

So I have seen this happen in a quite few different games this season (not just Auburn ones), but what is up with the clock not stopping after a first down to move the chains?? 

Was there a new rule implemented that I didn't hear about? 

The clock does stop for a first down to move the chains. However,  the clock restarts as soon as the down box is set.  With the 40 second play clock we no longer wait for the chains to actually be set.  Once the down box has gotten to the spot clock is started.  

Clock also no longer stops on out of bounds plays either until the last 2 minutes of each half.  

These changes began several years ago.  Ill try to find the rule reference for it when I get home tonight 

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What’s the rule on when a coach can call a timeout vs. when the ball is snapped?...In the UGA/Notre Dame game, ND had a touchdown taken away because UGA called a timeout. ND got the play off but apparently UGA had told the side judge that they wanted a timeout. The camera angle didn’t show whether or not UGA notified the ref before ND snapped the ball....

If teams can call a timeout at the last second before the ball is snapped, it seems like the ref who is notified should start blowing his whistle right away to stop play...Thanks for any info; sorry if this has been covered already.

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15 minutes ago, Wire Road said:

What’s the rule on when a coach can call a timeout vs. when the ball is snapped?...In the UGA/Notre Dame game, ND had a touchdown taken away because UGA called a timeout. ND got the play off but apparently UGA had told the side judge that they wanted a timeout. The camera angle didn’t show whether or not UGA notified the ref before ND snapped the ball....

If teams can call a timeout at the last second before the ball is snapped, it seems like the ref who is notified should start blowing his whistle right away to stop play...Thanks for any info; sorry if this has been covered already.

Coach of either team can call a timeout anytime before the ball is snapped.  Do you honestly believe the official that is granting the time out doesn't start blowing his whistle right away?     Blowing the whistle doesn't always prevent the snap, particularly when coaches wait so long to ask for the timeout and the snap is imminent. 

Haven't you ever seen a coach call a timeout right before a FG attempt but the kick happens anyway?  Whistle doesn't often prevent the snap or even the kick either.

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51 minutes ago, WarTiger said:

Coach of either team can call a timeout anytime before the ball is snapped.  Do you honestly believe the official that is granting the time out doesn't start blowing his whistle right away?     Blowing the whistle doesn't always prevent the snap, particularly when coaches wait so long to ask for the timeout and the snap is imminent. 

Haven't you ever seen a coach call a timeout right before a FG attempt but the kick happens anyway?  Whistle doesn't often prevent the snap or even the kick either.

Okay thanks...sounds pretty straightforward.

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I was wondering about the clock running after player willingly went out of bounds.  I know that if the player's forward progress is stopped before getting out then it will run.  But I thought if a player runs out of bounds then clock was supposed to stop. 

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1 minute ago, LKEEL75 said:

I was wondering about the clock running after player willingly went out of bounds.  I know that if the player's forward progress is stopped before getting out then it will run.  But I thought if a player runs out of bounds then clock was supposed to stop. 

 

On 9/17/2019 at 7:35 AM, WarTiger said:

Clock also no longer stops on out of bounds plays either until the last 2 minutes of each half.

 

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Recap on a few things from last night.

1. The fumble by Seth Williams.  That wasn't a fumble because he was already down.  Not sure how the replay booth couldn't tell that after slowing it down.  They missed this one.

2. Probably should have been a horse collar tackle called on the MSU player that tackled Nix on his long run and forced the fumble that went out of bounds.

3.  Targeting call late in the first half.  I know a lot were complaining about it not being flagged on the field but what most people don't realize is when a play starts, every official has their own key.  That means they are responsible for that player for the first several yards (particularly a WR) of the play.  As the player continues to move, he will enter the covering area of a different official.    It's highly possible the official that had him as their key and was watching him, didn't have the proper angle to see the hit to flag the targeting.   He should have, however, seen the hit enough to know it was at the very least a late hit and a hit on a defenseless player.      BUT, this is why replay is being used.  This is also why replay has the authority to call a targeting foul when its not called in live action.   Officials are HUMAN.  They aren't going to see everything and its also possible that another player was between him and the player he was responsible for.   I know these sound like excuses, but until you actually get on the field and know what each officials responsibilites are, it can difficult to understand everything that happens.    We as fans watching at home have the benefit of seeing the play over and over.  The officials on the field see it once and always at full speed.  To expect them to see everything and get everything right is ludicrous. 

The bottom line on the targeting call was, THEY GOT THE CALL RIGHT.  It's ok that it took replay to make the call.  Not sure why so many in the game thread got bent out of shape over it.  The system worked exactly how it's supposed to work and how it was designed to work.   It was TEXTBOOK TARGETING.  ANY contact with the crown of the helmet is targeting.  IT does NOT have to be helmet to helmet to be a targeting foul. I'm not sure why so many people have a hard time understanding that.

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1 hour ago, WarTiger said:

Not sure how the replay booth couldn't tell that after slowing it down.  They missed this one.

Main question: IF they have someone in the replay booth looking at the replay, WHY is the referee looking at a monitor on the sideline?  He (or his crew) already made a questionable call and should have ZERO say on the replay review.

 

1 hour ago, WarTiger said:

Officials are HUMAN.

The other 87,000 people around saw an obvious late hit well after the play was over. If not one official saw it, I'd question their competence.  If a player fumbles in a game, he has consequences the next week in practice or possibly on the field with fewer reps.  What is the consequence for incompetent officiating?

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2 hours ago, oracle79 said:

Main question: IF they have someone in the replay booth looking at the replay, WHY is the referee looking at a monitor on the sideline?  He (or his crew) already made a questionable call and should have ZERO say on the replay review.  Well, its supposed to give the white hat a look at the play for his input in the review.  And YES they absolutely should have input in that process.  You have to remember there are EIGHT officials on the field.  Every official has an area of responsibility and keys when the play starts.  If a pass is thrown vertically down the field, does the white hat throw the flag for pass interference?  NO, because he's not looking there and its not his call to make. He has other responsibilities.   Why would you take away the white hats ability to see the play when there's a significant chance he didn't see what they are reviewing when it happened?  We all know there are things that happen that seem obvious to us watching on tv, but we aren't at field level trying to see through other players, etc.  What would you say if that white hat looking at the replay and talking to the replay official while they watch it was the one that made the decision to call it targeting on that replay for instance.  They got that call right.  See, it can work both ways.  Too many fans focus on the mistakes or what they perceive as mistakes and not the total picture.  

What do you mean they already made a questionable call? That makes no sense given what replay can be used for.  Just because its being reviewed doesn't mean an official made a questionable call.  The two are not always or even often related to each other.   Examples: Fumble no fumble. not always easy to see the ball and if the player was/is down (we saw this last night and I've already said they got this wrong, IMO),  forward or backward pass, not at all a questionable decision by an official but often reviewed to make sure it was right.  Was the QB's arm going forward or was it not when the player was hit and lost the ball?  Not a questionable decision at all but one replay will look at and hopefully get right.  Nobody can see through players to see everything.

 

2 hours ago, oracle79 said:

 

The other 87,000 people around saw an obvious late hit well after the play was over. If not one official saw it, I'd question their competence.  If a player fumbles in a game, he has consequences the next week in practice or possibly on the field with fewer reps.  What is the consequence for incompetent officiating?    You questioning their competence says more about you than about them.  If you read my paragraph on the late hit above it should explain a little of why it could have been missed when it happened.  I agree it should have at least been flagged as a late hit but see my statement above on keys and let me know the next time you can see through a player (if that were the case here, which we don't know).    Officials have to see the entire play. They cannot see a player falling down after the whistle and assume something nefarious happened.  They HAVE to see the WHOLE THING.

Officials are graded each and every week.  If their grading isn't high enough they won't be back next year.  In the event that their grading is significantly bad (from an officials perspective, not fans perspective) then they may/could be suspended for a week or more and maybe even the rest of the season.    Fans seem to think there's no accountablility for the officials and that couldn't be further from the truth.  

For the fans that complain the most about the officiating, find a local association to join and start officiating youth league games, move up to high school games, then lower division college (If you make it through youth league).  Help us make the game better. 

 

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I'll just agree to disagree on your first point. If the white hat gets to look at it, there is no need for a replay official in the booth. If there is a need for an independent person to look at the replay then there is no need for the white hat to have any say. The reasons for him making or not making the call are IRRELEVANT. All that matter is that the call is correct and replay should provide that 99% of the time.

7 minutes ago, WarTiger said:

Officials are graded each and every week.  If their grading isn't high enough they won't be back next year.  In the event that their grading is significantly bad (from an officials perspective, not fans perspective) then they may/could be suspended for a week or more and maybe even the rest of the season.

Thanks. I'm glad there is some form of accountability and quality control for them.

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