Question about Gus and play design

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

I have a serious question that I would like to hear your opinions on without more bashing of the man.  That pinata of him has been smashed to smithereens on here and there is no candy left.

What happened to the type of plays and offense that Gus used as an OC at Auburn and at Tulsa?  He was brilliant at calling and setting up plays to attack a defense.  He was successful at Tulsa with an unbelievable offense that broke records for yardage by a QB, WRs, and RBs.  When he was an OC at Auburn he used what seemed like every offensive player on the roster to use their unique abilities to expose what a defense was doing.  It was fun to watch and the defenses did not know what was coming and they had to worry about every inch of the field.

My first thought was that he needs a running QB for his offense to be at it's best.  When you look at what he did at Tulsa then you realize that this is not the case.  The ball was spread around to so many playmakers that they all excelled at numerous positions.  They averaged 550 yards a game and 47 points per.  Yes that is a different level of competition but remember, he had the same caliber of kids as the teams he was playing against.

My second thought was that the teams around the country have caught up to what he was doing and that the defenses are built to stop it in today's game.  Some of this is probably true but I just don't see the creativity in anything we do anymore that made Gus successful.  To me we have simply became a power run team out of the shotgun that will occasionally run a jet sweep to try to keep the defense honest.  The pass to Asa martin Saturday, which worked beautifully, was a play that we used to run a good bit when Gus was an OC.  That is just another play that makes the defense, the LBs, have to play more honest.

I nor any casual fan can truly see what is trying to be accomplished on any given play without the game film to see the whole picture.  With that being said, we didn't game film to see it when Gus was at his best because it was so evident by the play design and execution against a defense.  

All of that imaginative playcalling and perfectly timed plays to adjust to what a defense is doing in my eyes has turned into force the run between the tackles with NOTHING designed to run off tackle with a RB; a WR screen pass; an occasional jet sweep that is slowly disappearing; and too many routes being ran on the same play to the same area of the field.  We saw what happens when we run a back on a wheel route Saturday.  We saw what happens when we send Cox 7 yards downfield to catch a pass.  We saw what happens when you break tendency and throw to the TE Harris to pick up a 1st down.  These used to be plays that were in our arsenal every week. Lutz, Uzomah, Grant, Onterrio.  Outside of Cam newton, we have much better players now.  It isn't even close.  

Am I imagining things or has our offense become WAY to watered down compared to what it used to be?  I will hang up and listen.

[auburn4ever 1,266]

Greg Brown needs to go. He's an awful DB coach.

[corchjay 5,311]

DC's and scheme have caught up with him.  Defenses are trained not to watch all the "eye candy" going on and just do you normal reads with the lineman and fullback that's why you seldom see a lot of the eye candy and it's usually when we are in tempo.  

Our base offense is basically still the same.  It's consist of the power zone play (or as described on here the hand off for 1 yard up the middle), the buck sweep which can be taken out by certain alignments,  the zone read (can be run either inside zone or outside zone), the RPO, and the speed sweep out of multiple looks,  passing consist of the bubble screen, the tunnel screen (very rarely run for us now), what I would term as "space routes",  that is where a lot of the idea that the passing route tree is isn't complex.   We do run a few more combo route stuff since Chip's arrival but we are still far from a complex passing game.  However, the same can be said for about 99 percent of college football.

The only thing that I would really change in design is that I'd like to see the pistol formation sometimes.  You could run it with 5 down lineman, 5 down with a TE, and 5 down with 2 tights and could incorporate the stretch, the power, and the read all out of another formation.  

We always have a few little wrinkles each game that are expected to produce first downs or a possible big play.  Some call them gimmicks or trick plays when in reality they are hoping to get the defense to react to a normal play but add the extra wrinkle.

The problem is it's hard to score against good defenses and we generally play 3-4 really good defenses each year.  Its the same for teams going up against our defense.  it's hard to score.  

Like I have said over the years... I don't understand the Gus hate at all.  I understand you can't please all the people all the time stuff but the pure hatred toward him is just weird to me.  

[corchjay 5,311]

5 minutes ago, auburn4ever said:

Greg Brown needs to go. He's an awful DB coach.

Coach Brown may be the best coach on the staff from a fundamental teaching criteria.  

[auburn4ever 1,266]

As for Malzahn's play design, we've seen his style for 6 year now. Gus is never going to change. Since he has 49 million over the next 7 years, nothing else matters to him.

[corchjay 5,311]

1 minute ago, auburn4ever said:

As for Malzahn's play design, we've seen his style for 6 year now. Gus is never going to change. Since he has 49 million over the next 7 years, nothing else matters to him.

The OP asked for civil discourse and not about opinion of the head coach to clutter up another thread.  

[kevon67 2,368]

4 minutes ago, auburn4ever said:

As for Malzahn's play design, we've seen his style for 6 year now. Gus is never going to change. Since he has 49 million over the next 7 years, nothing else matters to him.

So much for not bashing........Try reading first sentence of original post with your eyes open this time.

[SKIPPER_01 99]

It's not the x's and o's, it's the Jimmy's and Joe's.

We have a totally revamped Oline with not great Oline recruiting. 

I feel like recruiting on offensive side of ball has been WAY BELOW our rivals the last few years. It is our main problem, IMO, and I am going to have a topic on recruiting board in a bit and I'm sure I'll be blasted for my ideas.

 

[corchjay 5,311]

@NorthGATiger another thing to me is the double checking changing alignment on the outside WRs and then run the same power play,  not sure what they are trying to do in some of those situations

Then you have to execute and that's on each of the staff and players as well.  Everyone calls for NCM to get more touches but how?  He can't get open on his own.  Every once in a while he will make a catch but it's generally still contested.  Very solid blocker in space tho so he brings a ton of value to the position.  

Slow decisions by Stidham.  There are a lot of open WRs in crossing patterns both shallow and intermediate that he just never looks for.  It's either the designed route or check down

This year it's below average OL play, average WR play, average QB play, and average RB play.... That in turn makes us pretty average on offense and yet again very hard to score on good defenses.  We have to get better.  One of the position groups have to step up in a big way.  

At the personnel level I'd say we need make a switch with Kim and Brahms.   Mike Horton I have no idea what has happened to him and why but he seems to fall down pulling, falls down when drive blocking... I don't understand why this is happening

[BigWhiskey91 632]

To piggy back off of Corch, I will say that personnel and OL performance has dictated our play calling a lot over the last two years. 

Last year, our pass blocking was pretty poor. We ended up utilizing more screens and misdirection to take advantage of the pursuit teams were able to have against our OL. 

This year, we have made some changes and shown a few wrinkles here and there. One of our big tendencies when we line our RB up our wide is to motion them in next to the QB and then snap it and throw a swing pass to them in the flat. Against LSU, we showed this same look, but instead of motioning, we threw a quick screen out to Ryan Davis giving him 3+ blockers. 

Then we have the sugar huddle. Most of the time, we break out undercenter and run a toss or a playaction to Cox in the flat. Against LSU, we did the same, but rolled Stidham out and hit Slayton on a drag route across the formation. It was beautiful. Broke several tendencies there. 

Then we have the new Max protection look. We have cox as the RB and either an extra tackle as the ‘TE’ or Jalen Harris. It’s a good way to add protection and has been successful. To counter the personnel predictability, we have thrown to Cox on checkdowns or when he’s chipped an edge rusher and sat in a hole in the coverage. Did this a ton against Washington. Was hoping for more against LSU. 

I have noticed more so that we have been using Jalen Harris lined up as a true TE and on our first TD against LSU, we were having success running the ball out of that look. Had a nice throw to the flat to Cox for a jet first down out of it too.

Gus/Chip have still been adding, but I want to see what they will do to scheme open some explosive plays. Our offense thrives on it and so far it hasn’t been there. Need more double posts to pick on the single high safety we seem to see frequently.

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

42 minutes ago, corchjay said:

DC's and scheme have caught up with him.  Defenses are trained not to watch all the "eye candy" going on and just do you normal reads with the lineman and fullback that's why you seldom see a lot of the eye candy and it's usually when we are in tempo.  

Our base offense is basically still the same.  It's consist of the power zone play (or as described on here the hand off for 1 yard up the middle), the buck sweep which can be taken out by certain alignments,  the zone read (can be run either inside zone or outside zone), the RPO, and the speed sweep out of multiple looks,  passing consist of the bubble screen, the tunnel screen (very rarely run for us now), what I would term as "space routes",  that is where a lot of the idea that the passing route tree is isn't complex.   We do run a few more combo route stuff since Chip's arrival but we are still far from a complex passing game.  However, the same can be said for about 99 percent of college football.

The only thing that I would really change in design is that I'd like to see the pistol formation sometimes.  You could run it with 5 down lineman, 5 down with a TE, and 5 down with 2 tights and could incorporate the stretch, the power, and the read all out of another formation.  

We always have a few little wrinkles each game that are expected to produce first downs or a possible big play.  Some call them gimmicks or trick plays when in reality they are hoping to get the defense to react to a normal play but add the extra wrinkle.

The problem is it's hard to score against good defenses and we generally play 3-4 really good defenses each year.  Its the same for teams going up against our defense.  it's hard to score.  

Like I have said over the years... I don't understand the Gus hate at all.  I understand you can't please all the people all the time stuff but the pure hatred toward him is just weird to me.  

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  I just wish we would see a little more of the Wheel Routes and usage of some other plays he has used with the TE and such like we did in the past.  I also understand that we don't have a Uzomah or Lutz on the roster right now.

[corchjay 5,311]

And to Piggy back off BigWhiskey I do have to say Jalen Harris has been a beast blocking.   We should use him more.  Not saying as a receiver but his blocking has been excellent.   

And I will repeat again... Stidham just needs to throw it to the open person in the pass game.  

[BigWhiskey91 632]

2 minutes ago, NorthGATiger said:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  I just wish we would see a little more of the Wheel Routes and usage of some other plays he has used with the TE and such like we did in the past.  I also understand that we don't have a Uzomah or Lutz on the roster right now.

The wheel disappeared for a bit as we used them a lot in 2009-2011. We still use them though! We had an epic wheel route to Asa Martin that setup our third TD against LSU. Now we like to run it by making it look like a pass to the flat with the lead blocker actually being the targeted receiver!

[corchjay 5,311]

But all offensive position groups have to get better.  That starts at the top down... Gus, Chip, Stidham....  those are the offensive leaders

[BigWhiskey91 632]

Just now, corchjay said:

And to Piggy back off BigWhiskey I do have to say Jalen Harris has been a beast blocking.   We should use him more.  Not saying as a receiver but his blocking has been excellent.   

And I will repeat again... Stidham just needs to throw it to the open person in the pass game.  

Yeah I am hoping we see more 5+TE sets going forward.

As for Stidham, I wonder how much of it is him and how much of it is Coaching him to not throw it unless it’s wide open. Hell, his third down pass to Seth (Miracle catch that was inc, but roughing the passer was called), Stidham threw it into triple coverage.

So I go back and forth on that. I feel like Stidham isn’t going to start pushing/forcing passes unless it’s a third down or if it’s a bomb. Whether that’s him or not I don’t know. He didn’t seem to play that way in his tape at Baylor. I’m curious if his performance would be better if we threw more consistently throughout games. I’m talking 30-40 pass attempts. Might be helpful if our run game continues to struggle.

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

8 minutes ago, BigWhiskey91 said:

The wheel disappeared for a bit as we used them a lot in 2009-2011. We still use them though! We had an epic wheel route to Asa Martin that setup our third TD against LSU. Now we like to run it by making it look like a pass to the flat with the lead blocker actually being the targeted receiver!

Yes.  That is the one I referenced in my original post.  That play is generally there for the taking and if it isn't then it at least takes a man out of the box on defense and stresses the Defense as a whole.

[corchjay 5,311]

But to get down to the nuts and bolts of it.  The plays and play designs are all a part of a solid offensive philosophy but has to be executed at high level.  Not a good level but at a high level.  We aren't getting that right now.  And that's how you beat good teams by executing your game plan at a high level.  It's multiple issues as we have partially discussed, OL play below average and the rest of the offensive position groups playing average.  Granted I'm basing these off of teams that are as talented or more talented.  We will kill the Alabama States and probably Arkansas this weekend.  But that isn't what we are measuring ourselves against.  

[corchjay 5,311]

1 minute ago, NorthGATiger said:

Yes.  That is the one I referenced in my original post.  That play is generally there for the taking and if it isn't then it at least takes a man out of the box on defense and stresses the Defense as a whole.

I thought Asa did a great job on it as well.  I though he had a pretty good run or 2 or thought it was him as well.  He didn't get a lot of carries in the Alabama State game but came in during some 2 hb sets against them and was the lead blocker and was demolishing DEs and LBs.  

[Zeek 16,578]

1 hour ago, NorthGATiger said:

When he was an OC at Auburn he used what seemed like every offensive player on the roster to use their unique abilities to expose what a defense was doing.

He's never utilized TEs though and I think it's because he is so terrified of interceptions and the middle of the field is a dangerous area at times.

1 hour ago, NorthGATiger said:

The pass to Asa martin Saturday, which worked beautifully, was a play that we used to run a good bit when Gus was an OC.  That is just another play that makes the defense, the LBs, have to play more honest.

Agreed, when I saw that pass I couldn't help but be eager for more that never came.

I think we have had success pounding running backs into square holes with circle pegs and having a deep threat and screen guy with a mobile strong-armed quarterback. It seems like instead of adjusting our offense to our strengths, WEST COAST PASSING WITH 4-5 WR SETS, we're determined to replicate what has worked before. We're ramming into a brick wall when we could just walk around it.

We don't run the buck sweep anymore, we never run counters, and we just recently added a draw play that oddly worked against LSU but in years past has been terrible. Need more diversity for sure. It's like we're using the "ask madden" option and not picking from a huge book of plays.

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

Just now, corchjay said:

I thought Asa did a great job on it as well.  I though he had a pretty good run or 2 or thought it was him as well.  He didn't get a lot of carries in the Alabama State game but came in during some 2 hb sets against them and was the lead blocker and was demolishing DEs and LBs.  

I totally agree.  It doesn't necessarily even have to be a RB that runs it.  Schwartz or any other WR could motion to the backfield from outside like Asa did and run any number of routes from that position. Just something creative that isn't hard to do or earth shattering that keeps the defense reacting instead of pinning their ears back on obvious passing downs.  I feel like Gus and his system need some tendency breakers which we saw a little bit of against Washington and LSU.  Not pass vs run tendency breakers but more so personnel and formation differences.  As you eluded to we are talented enough that we can run what we run against the lesser teams we play but we need to change things up some against the good defenses that we play.  White for LSU had obviously done extensive film study and was using his eyes to correctly affect what we were trying to do.  i was also very impressed with the freshman #9 on their defense.  Kid was everywhere.

[corchjay 5,311]

1 minute ago, NorthGATiger said:

I totally agree.  It doesn't necessarily even have to be a RB that runs it.  Schwartz or any other WR could motion to the backfield from outside like Asa did and run any number of routes from that position. Just something creative that isn't hard to do or earth shattering that keeps the defense reacting instead of pinning their ears back on obvious passing downs.  I feel like Gus and his system need some tendency breakers which we saw a little bit of against Washington and LSU.  Not pass vs run tendency breakers but more so personnel and formation differences.  As you eluded to we are talented enough that we can run what we run against the lesser teams we play but we need to change things up some against the good defenses that we play.  White for LSU had obviously done extensive film study and was using his eyes to correctly affect what we were trying to do.  i was also very impressed with the freshman #9 on their defense.  Kid was everywhere.

They definitely have defensive talent everywhere.  Maybe they were a little thin on the DL last year but we weren't able to possess the ball enough in the heat saturday to make a difference in depth.  

To me Burrow made plays when his team needed them.  We started committing penalties on the OL and Stidham(and the offense) didn't make plays when we needed him(them) to.  

[Win4AU 4,050]

I know for the past couple years most people have wanted Gus to turn the play calling over to Chip/Lashlee and from what I can tell Gus hasn’t been involved too much this season.  One complaint I would have with Chips play calling is almost too much passing.  Traditionaly under Gus and in the SEC in generally a strong running game leads teams to championships. I have not gone back and watched the game but the offensive surge we saw after the slow start seemed more like a Gus offense instead of a Chip offense.  We ran with success which had the LSU defense off balance.  After Boobie came out for a couple plays and Shivers got stuffed a couple times I feel like Auburn reverted back to a pass heavy offense which has not been successful under Gus and Stidham.  Maybe someone with a higher football IQ can speak on this.

[corchjay 5,311]

Another thing coaching wise that I would do differently is when we scrimmage in the fall I would go QB live the second scrimmage especially if it's 1s vs 2s.   And I would go live in every Spring scrimmage if it's 1s vs 2s.  

Please let the backups run the entire offense when they get in the game.  I understand keeping it basic but still run your basic plays to find out what the backups can really do.  

[corchjay 5,311]

4 minutes ago, Win4AU said:

I know for the past couple years most people have wanted Gus to turn the play calling over to Chip/Lashlee and from what I can tell Gus hasn’t been involved too much this season.  One complaint I would have with Chips play calling is almost too much passing.  Traditionaly under Gus and in the SEC in generally a strong running game leads teams to championships. I have not gone back and watched the game but the offensive surge we saw after the slow start seemed more like a Gus offense instead of a Chip offense.  We ran with success which had the LSU defense off balance.  After Boobie came out for a couple plays and Shivers got stuffed a couple times I feel like Auburn reverted back to a pass heavy offense which has not been successful under Gus and Stidham.  Maybe someone with a higher football IQ can speak on this.

We were pretty good after the bad start which was horrible!!!  Until late when we had penalties and bad field position.  

And yes Chip is calling plays bus Gus does chime in on the headset...  Does it throw Chip off?  I don't think so.  But at this point it's not completely Gus' old system or Chip's system it's a combo of the 2 with more of Gus' offense influence

[Gowebb11 9,298]

2 hours ago, NorthGATiger said:

Am I imagining things or has our offense become WAY to watered down compared to what it used to be?  I will hang up and listen.

Thanks for a great post, @NorthGATiger I do not possess the technical knowledge of someone like @corchjay so I cannot answer to all of your questions. But I think an overlooked part of this discussion, is how much parity there is in the second tier of college football. AU, TAMU, LSU, and MSU are all really good football teams with good and smart defenses. We all have the same amount of Grad Assts and “consultants” to study game film 24/7 all year round. We all know each others tendencies, and increasingly I’m seeing games come down to execution on 2-3 plays. What if we pick up the LBer on our 4th and 1 play and go on to score? What if the snap is good on Carlsons 53 yard FG attempt? I would argue that all 4 of the teams above would easily be the second best team in the SEC East, hands down. But the margin for error is slim. One of those 4 teams will likely finish 10-2 and second in the SEC West, and one will finish 8-4 and 5th in the West. Gus is basically running the same offense that has been throttled by teams, and the same offense that was good enough to beat Bama and UGA last year. We cannot control Gus’s offensive philosophy, or the refs. The one thing we can control is executing better. In our big games, we have to get it right, not just almost right. All my humble opinion. WDE!!!