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Question about Gus and play design


NorthGATiger

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4 minutes ago, DAG said:

Because the pass opens up the run. You are NOT going to just be able to impose your will with this team . The only time we have been able to get pace is when we completed some short yardage to intermediate passes, which allowed for the run game to get established .

I don’t know why people think we are going to all of a sudden be able to impose our will against QUALITY opponents when we couldn’t do it against UW and we couldn’t really do it against LSU. Oh BTW , we don’t have a KJ or a Tre Mason in the backfield who can make something out of nothing. Yes, JS had a bad game but I’ve seen him be excellent , unlike the others on the offensive side of the ball. He is our best asset right now.

So unless the offensive line suddenly become bezerkers, you have to go off the DNA of your team.

Unfortunately I think Auburn has to impose its will if it’s going to be successful.  UGA, Clemson, UCF, LSU, and even Washington have shown that if you make Stidham have to beat you throwing he won’t.  I’m not sure if that’s Stidham or the design of the offense.  The Bama and UGA game we’re a result of a great running game combined with passing it at strategic points.  I’d have to go back and watch the last half of the game again but I feel like Auburn went pass heavy and the offense stalled.

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Another thing that needs to be addressed as is expectations for the offense.  I never thought this was going to be an incredible offensive unit this year.  To many new starters at positions that takes multiple games to become good at your craft.   Yes we have a solid if not very good QB as far as arm talent but does have then normal college player deficiencies.  But inexperienced OL and RB.  Like very inexperienced.  Solid but not elite WRs.  

Midseason we should be better but you can't abandon your offensive philosophy. 

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4 minutes ago, corchjay said:

That's a good overview of the situation but I think people want to know what we can schematically do to improve our performance.  Like what the coaches can do to make the offense more potent with the same players.  

And don’t take that is me blaming the coaching staff. Personally, the coaching staff shouldn’t have to own everything. The damn QB needs to be a leader and there needs to be a chip on the shoulder of some of these guys. Yes, I am calling JS out. I am also going to call our d-line out even if LSU has this awesome max protection set up. I remember in 2013 when we only had one consistent pass rusher in Dee Ford. We had Lawson too but he was still young , but when a play had to happen Dee was going to make it occur. Do trust opposing teams knew who he was and threw double teams at him, but when it had to get done, he made it get done or he was going to die trying. I don’t see that in this bunch right now. Davis our LB might be the only one at the moment.

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4 minutes ago, DAG said:

One thing I want more to occur is the motioning to a speed sweep guy. I wish they would actually implement that instead of motioning an extra blocker. In that way you can fake the speed sweep, give it or use them as a safety valve. That’s more of a Matt Canada approach but I think we need to keep teams front seven way off balance. 

I agree with this 100%.  Having Schwartz or Stove come around end makes the LB freeze instead of crashing inside.  That’s what makes me believe Gus is completely hands off on the offense right now.  That’s his bread and butter.

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10 minutes ago, DAG said:

One thing I want more to occur is the motioning to a speed sweep guy. I wish they would actually implement that instead of motioning an extra blocker. In that way you can fake the speed sweep, give it or use them as a safety valve. That’s more of a Matt Canada approach but I think we need to keep teams front seven way off balance. 

I could see that helping if not done to many times.  Canada's offense is maddening to watch for me.  LOL.  

But the speed sweep motion at times would create some reads for the fronts unless they are playing 4i technique where it would automatically fall to the SAM lber...

but the principle behind it would be good at times sort of like the orbit motion when we'd go double play fake for the deep pass.  All anyone would ever say was that just wasted motion by the orbit guy but what his motion would create is forcing the DE to rush from outside leverage and in doing so helping the OT to know where the rusher would be rushing from

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9 minutes ago, DAG said:

And don’t take that is me blaming the coaching staff. Personally, the coaching staff shouldn’t have to own everything. The damn QB needs to be a leader and there needs to be a chip on the shoulder of some of these guys. Yes, I am calling JS out. I am also going to call our d-line out even if LSU has this awesome max protection set up. I remember in 2013 when we only had one consistent pass rusher in Dee Ford. We had Lawson too but he was still young , but when a play had to happen Dee was going to make it occur. Do trust opposing teams knew who he was and threw double teams at him, but when it had to get done, he made it get done or he was going to die trying. I don’t see that in this bunch right now. Davis our LB might be the only one at the moment.

I've been there with you since Saturday calling JS out as well.  Man up.  take that shot to the face from the rusher and complete the pass on 3rd downs.  You will have to do it in the NFL you better get used to it

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and definitely don't want this to come across as one of those I told yall so situations...

but prior to the season I was whole heartily saying that my biggest concern on offense was WR.  not that I thought they would be the worst or bad positional group but that i thought their experience could help a young offense early in the season.  They have at times and at others haven't help that much.  I'd say overall they haven't stepped up as much as we needed them to from last year.  

Everyone else was concerned with OL.  I knew/know that was going to be a work in progress and hoped they would be further along then they are so far.  

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33 minutes ago, DAG said:

And don’t take that is me blaming the coaching staff. Personally, the coaching staff shouldn’t have to own everything. The damn QB needs to be a leader and there needs to be a chip on the shoulder of some of these guys. Yes, I am calling JS out. I am also going to call our d-line out even if LSU has this awesome max protection set up. I remember in 2013 when we only had one consistent pass rusher in Dee Ford. We had Lawson too but he was still young , but when a play had to happen Dee was going to make it occur. Do trust opposing teams knew who he was and threw double teams at him, but when it had to get done, he made it get done or he was going to die trying. I don’t see that in this bunch right now. Davis our LB might be the only one at the moment.

Preach!

Too may players are too passive right now and I don't know why.  If redeeming yourself from last year's LSU loss wasn't enough to motivate these men to play better and more aggressive, then what will it take?

 

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I think, until we get this o-line situation worked out in the next couple of weeks, we'll have to use the speed we have now to our advantage. Move the pocket as well (but not to Horton's side) by letting Stidham fake the hand-off and then roll to his left where Tega has done a decent job in pass-pro. Stidham can throw it downfield, run it, or even check down to the RB who might actually be wide open on the other side of the field now. Then you can start calling that look more but mixing in the hand-off and letting the RB either find a gap or bounce it outside. But that's just another wrinkle. I'm okay with the play calling so far this year (minus a couple) but execution has got to get better, especially on the o-line.

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27 minutes ago, corchjay said:

I've been there with you since Saturday calling JS out as well.  Man up.  take that shot to the face from the rusher and complete the pass on 3rd downs.  You will have to do it in the NFL you better get used to it

No emotion, no fire, no getting after his teammates, and in general just an overly nonchalant demeanor when we lose or when things go badly.  He is the leader of this team and his physical demeanor and expressions scream oh well!  I don't know that he has the desire to play at the next level.  He may just want to get married, make babies, and spend his father in laws fortune lol. 

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5 minutes ago, NorthGATiger said:

No emotion, no fire, no getting after his teammates, and in general just an overly nonchalant demeanor when we lose or when things go badly.  He is the leader of this team and his physical demeanor and expressions scream oh well!  I don't know that he has the desire to play at the next level.  He may just want to get married, make babies, and spend his father in laws fortune lol. 

I just want to see him engaged more... I like at Kyler and Will Grier..they just carrry themselves different. Kyler is always talking to his receivers , lining up his RBs, communicating to the lineman and engaging with coach Riley on the sideline . Maybe JS is doing all of this but I just don’t see it.

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3 hours ago, SKIPPER_01 said:

It's not the x's and o's, it's the Jimmy's and Joe's.

We have a totally revamped Oline with not great Oline recruiting. 

I feel like recruiting on offensive side of ball has been WAY BELOW our rivals the last few years. It is our main problem, IMO, and I am going to have a topic on recruiting board in a bit and I'm sure I'll be blasted for my ideas.

 

I am with you. Gus needs a mobile QB for his offense to work. Sure, d coordinators have improved, but we no longer are considered a HUNH O! Stidham is more of a pro style QB. Cord and Nix look more the part. Another note, you are correct. We are losing big time recruits to other schools. We signed 5 star Ashley, but he seems to be a project. At tailback, KJ and Mason were good, but they weren't  Michael Dyer. We are getting killed on the recruiting trail by GA and Bama. Ga signs the too dual threat QB in nation and he was aware he prob wouldn't win starting job, but he is playing and is scary good. Of course not all elite players will pan out, but how many truly elite ones are we really signing? 

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Just now, DAG said:

I just want to see him engaged more... I like at Kyler and Will Grier..they just carrry themselves different. Kyler is always talking to his receivers , lining up his RBs, communicating to the lineman and engaging with coach Riley on the sideline . Maybe JS is doing all of this but I just don’t see it.

It could be both ways.  I know he's won over the team but still you have to perform when your name gets called.  It's not all on Stidham, just like it's not all on the OL, or the RBs or WRs or coaches.  It's all of them.   But Stidham is the leader, he is the one that is the "coach on the field" and the expectations of him being a 1st round draft pick.  Start playing like it.  

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2 minutes ago, Deemer 47 said:

I am with you. Gus needs a mobile QB for his offense to work. Sure, d coordinators have improved, but we no longer are considered a HUNH O! Stidham is more of a pro style QB. Cord and Nix look more the part. Another note, you are correct. We are losing big time recruits to other schools. We signed 5 star Ashley, but he seems to be a project. At tailback, KJ and Mason were good, but they weren't  Michael Dyer. We are getting killed on the recruiting trail by GA and Bama. Ga signs the too dual threat QB in nation and he was aware he prob wouldn't win starting job, but he is playing and is scary good. Of course not all elite players will pan out, but how many truly elite ones are we really signing? 

All teams have some holes even with elite recruiting.  Bama's last year and this year is linebacker.  A couple injuries and they are in trouble again.  UGA last year was DL and still they are thin, and inexperienced but they haven't played 2 Top 10 teams either so their youth haven't been exposed and may not as they are able to get reps in against "decent" competition.  

Bama and UGA are killing everyone in recruiting.  We are recruiting extremely well.  Let this cycle play out it might be our best year ever.  And yes even after a great year we will still have some holes.  

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I was told there would be candy.  ;(

I think it is a combination of things. 

1) DC's have figured out his tendencies

2) Stubbornness and ego won't allow him to alter those tendencies significantly and evolve the offense to the talent on hand

3) His immediate success with Nick Marshall and the zone read effectiveness has frozen him in time and heavily contributed to #2 above

Just my take

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2 hours ago, corchjay said:

We were pretty good after the bad start which was horrible!!!  Until late when we had penalties and bad field position.  

And yes Chip is calling plays bus Gus does chime in on the headset...  Does it throw Chip off?  I don't think so.  But at this point it's not completely Gus' old system or Chip's system it's a combo of the 2 with more of Gus' offense influence

Chip is calling plays from a game plan designed by Gus with some input from Chip.  I don't think Chip is comfortable with that but doing the best he can.  

I am still bumfuzzled by the inability of 4* WRs to get separation.   Are they not allowed to break designed routes or just not talented enough to do it?  Or are the QB and WRs not talented enough to read a defense and be on the same page with adjustments. 

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1 minute ago, around4ever said:

Chip is calling plays from a game plan designed by Gus with some input from Chip.  I don't think Chip is comfortable with that but doing the best he can.  

I am still bumfuzzled by the inability of 4* WRs to get separation.   Are they not allowed to break designed routes or just not talented enough to do it?  Or are the QB and WRs not talented enough to read a defense and be on the same page with adjustments. 

Chip is very involved in all aspects of the offense but at the end of the day it's the Gus offense.  

We don't really run "read" routes where the WR reads the defender and adjust.  The WR just runs the route called with the exception of the back shoulder throws that we are trying to do and this weekend the inexperience in doing that read bit us in the butt on the Interception on the throw to Slayton.   Slayton misread the defender.  I'd much rather NCM be the back shoulder throw guy anyway.   

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4 minutes ago, corchjay said:

Chip is very involved in all aspects of the offense but at the end of the day it's the Gus offense.  

We don't really run "read" routes where the WR reads the defender and adjust.  The WR just runs the route called with the exception of the back shoulder throws that we are trying to do and this weekend the inexperience in doing that read bit us in the butt on the Interception on the throw to Slayton.   Slayton misread the defender.  I'd much rather NCM be the back shoulder throw guy anyway.   

I wish we would work in more double move routes. If we show a 5 yard out or hitch route early, let them adjust and turn that into a double move up the sideline if the DBs are playing aggressive and the safety comes down. I know that's a lot to ask some of these guys, but it'll give them some breathing room when we do need that 5 yard route.

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For people talking about JS...

No, I don't think he has his eyes on babies and marrying into a wealthy family. 

No idea about how distracting the NFL is, but regarding leadership, I have heard he has been holding player only meetings. To me, that screams leadership. I would be shocked if he didn't have one after LSU. I know there is more that goes into being a leader and getting your team fired up, but you can be assured that former players are encouraging and advising JS on leading our Tigers. 

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5 minutes ago, AidiAU said:

For people talking about JS...

No, I don't think he has his eyes on babies and marrying into a wealthy family. 

No idea about how distracting the NFL is, but regarding leadership, I have heard he has been holding player only meetings. To me, that screams leadership. I would be shocked if he didn't have one after LSU. I know there is more that goes into being a leader and getting your team fired up, but you can be assured that former players are encouraging and advising JS on leading our Tigers. 

Also - you have to know how your teammates will react if you get in their faces about missed assignments and what not. Maybe you can get fired up in an encouraging way but if you get angry - they'll likely get angry in return and things will spiral out of control the wrong way. lol (I saw Tom Brady pissed the other night when losing to Jacksonville and he was screaming at his offense to "Do your f-cking job!" which I know those guys don't want to hear.)

JS seems to be the encouraging type. Very much the calmer "It's alright. Forget about it. We'll get it done the next drive." as opposed to the fired up face of the defense like Deshaun Davis. :D

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Just now, Linayus said:

I wish we would work in more double move routes. If we show a 5 yard out or hitch route early, let them adjust and turn that into a double move up the sideline if the DBs are playing aggressive and the safety comes down. I know that's a lot to ask some of these guys, but it'll give them some breathing room when we do need that 5 yard route.

Oh we do that.  but as previously mentioned when you play good to great defenses it's difficult to score even if you are able to move the ball.

What I want more of is more of what I call combo routes.  Like say from a 3 WR set.   2 to the left 1 to the right.  So you have essentially max protect out of run set.  Play action, timing route button hook (curl) by the outside WR  then corner route from the inside slot on the 2 WR side.  Great call if in Zone defense, put pressure on the player to cover the short or long guy, if he takes the long guy on the corner route hit the curl or the opposite.  Play action should pull the LB in to keep from dropping to deep and if he does then fade across his front after the curl.  Easy read for the QB.  If they come out in man or man over... just run the power or zone read with a lead blocker.  

But those are examples of combo routes that are easy reads for the QB and also if the timing is right on the corner route if it's the open guy should be hit the last step in the QB drop and the ball comes out.  really know way of getting to the QB unless someone just totally whiffs.

That was a staple in the Head Ball Coach's play book... then he go opposite on it.   Shallow down and out,  7-10 yards from the inside slot and a post corner route form the outside WR.   running back would block if needed or go right past the line of scrimmage and turn around and wait for the dump so you'd have backers dropping into coverage if they got to deep in their drops the QB would just dump to the running back in space.  Simple yet devastating if run with proper timing from QB.  Took years for defensive coordinators to figure out how to even slow it down.  

But that's kind of how play design works... you want to identify what you think is a weakness on the defense and find ways to get that guy in space 1 on 1 in a matchup you think you can win.   

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52 minutes ago, corchjay said:

All teams have some holes even with elite recruiting.  Bama's last year and this year is linebacker.  A couple injuries and they are in trouble again.  UGA last year was DL and still they are thin, and inexperienced but they haven't played 2 Top 10 teams either so their youth haven't been exposed and may not as they are able to get reps in against "decent" competition.  

Bama and UGA are killing everyone in recruiting.  We are recruiting extremely well.  Let this cycle play out it might be our best year ever.  And yes even after a great year we will still have some holes.  

I agree with you, but well coached teams can take 2 and 3 star guys and turn them into studs. True, GA has not played anyone but SC which hopefully was overrated, but do you really consider Lsu a top 10 team? I for one don't. There will always be holes on teams in college and pro ball for that matter, but that is  where coaching has to really begin to have a greater effect on the kids that weren't the stars coming out of HS. All I am saying is that both the aforementioned teams can lose certain valuable pieces and still make a run. What if AU list Boobee and Studham, or Derrick Brown, or Deshaun Davis? Just don't think we have the talent to plug in those holes right now. However, it is great to see some of the younger guys playing a lot. 

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1 hour ago, corchjay said:

It could be both ways.  I know he's won over the team but still you have to perform when your name gets called.  It's not all on Stidham, just like it's not all on the OL, or the RBs or WRs or coaches.  It's all of them.   But Stidham is the leader, he is the one that is the "coach on the field" and the expectations of him being a 1st round draft pick.  Start playing like it.  

JS is still pissing himself in the pocket when the pressure is on, which doesn't bode well for the defenses he still has to face.  He ran out of the pocket a few times vs LSU for no reason & was too busy looking for the rush that he didn't have time to make his reads.  Right now he lacks the composure & toughness that's needed to be dynamic.  He's still a solid QB though, and AU should be able to get to 8-9 wins with him. 

But at his age/level of experience, I don't know if composure and toughness can be taught in a week or two during the season to get him to the point where it becomes an asset and not a liability? 

 

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34 minutes ago, keesler said:

JS is still pissing himself in the pocket when the pressure is on, which doesn't bode well for the defenses he still has to face.  He ran out of the pocket a few times vs LSU for no reason & was too busy looking for the rush that he didn't have time to make his reads.  Right now he lacks the composure & toughness that's needed to be dynamic.  He's still a solid QB though, and AU should be able to get to 8-9 wins with him. 

But at his age/level of experience, I don't know if composure and toughness can be taught in a week or two during the season to get him to the point where it becomes an asset and not a liability? 

LSU was jumping and sitting on every route, just like they did last season.  Arranda knows our whole passing game better than Malzahn does.  That is why Stidham was "pissing his pants" and bailing.  Some of you are clueless and have no clue what you're even watching.  Stidham should never have even came here, and he should have left last season.  This is a graveyard for quarterbacks like him.  Malzahn can't even recognize when the defense is basically calling the plays as they come in.  If you noticed, Stidham had no problem during the mid-point of the game when we had LSU confused for a few drives....which in typical Malzahn fashion doesn't last long.

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