thaitopher

We Didn’t Finish in the Top 25

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1 hour ago, AU64 said:

I know you were trying to make a point but it's obvious you did not check Clemson before using them as you example. 

For the past several years their backup QBs got almost no playing time unless someone was hurt.   For two years Watson took more than 90% of the snaps and Bryant barely saw the field for two seasons in a row as Watson's backup despite blowout wins by Clemson ...and when KB took the job the two back-ups (both4* according to Clemson) barely saw the field and both transferred...one to Jax and the other somewhere else.   This year when KB was replaced, and left, Lawrence had the job and freshman Brice (4* according to Clemson) was only backup/guy to take the job and played well enough to help them win an important game...and then he was basically back on the bench.   Why did KB leave? ...because he know what life as a backup for Clemson was like....'riding the bench' waiting on someone to get hurt.

You have some idealistic view of Clemson that is fiction.   They have recruited quite well and killed it on QBs but as for preparing for the future ….dabo did nothing special in developing his back-ups to the extent they all left after a year or so.      Remains to be seen what happens with Brice because dabo's history is that Brice will play mop-up duty or none at all.   

Do some research and I think you will find that coaches play for "the day" and backups get little meaningful time.    Take Okla where Murray is gone after this season for sure...and yet he took about 600 snaps and his back ups only had about 40 or so.  And Wash State with Leech...his starter threw 600+ passes and the backup fewer than ten.    JMO but at AU, JS was never smooth enough or in control of the game...and more playing time was always a benefit to him for the season...whether he was leaving or not.  

And, I could be wrong but seems that playing back-ups to develop QBs is over-rated because it's obvious that top  coaches barely play their back-ups despite major blowout wins during their seasons that provided the opportunity.. 

No what is clear is you mistook what I was saying and did your usual defend Gus thing instead of you yourself seeing the overall picture or at least yourself doing research.  

You're still stuck on your don't play a qb because it doesn't do anything stuff. No matter what in our situation you're not going to make that conclusion you came to make any sense. Things that you say are obvious are in fact not obvious.....it's when you disagree with it you call it obvious. 

All situations aren't the same so yeah if you are starting a freshman then yeah he actually needs the reps. That's not a situation we've had. So you can cherry pick examples but we both know what you're doing. And no you wouldn't see anybody having a bunch of attempts because we're at most talking about roughly 5 minutes in a game the team would be up so they are going to be handing the ball off and running the clock down....so comparing Washington st pass attempts to a back up is pointless. 

But if you get past your hurt feelings from you getting laughed at about you not thinking the QB playing out you can see the overall point. Like you've said they've killed it with QB's.....we have done the opposite. Also with wr's. Pretty much all their big time recruits they play. They show up. They develop. That's the overall point of my post. And I didn't try to make it, it's made. 

Gus has the same opportunities if not more than the coaches Clemson have. Dabo wasn't an offensive coach really....at least not that type of pedigree of Gus right??? but his offense has been able to sustain at a high level losing coordinators. He coached wr's what does Clemson always seem to have? Good QB 's and wr's.....makes sense. What do we have? Meanwhile we have a specialist and our offense is hit or miss every year. Actually every game. They made an amazing hire at defensive coordinator, it wasn't anything amazing to think out....everybody knew it was a good hire, what Gus do?? He hire an old guy that doesn't like recruiting.....how do you see that turning out? 

I use Clemson because they are in the same region as us, has the same demographic as far as students, recruit the same players, have the same vision as far as style on offense and defense so they are a great comparison to use as far as every excuse many like you would try to make you literally have a school you can turn your head and look to, you can say well over there they were successful.....why can't we be

Edited by cole256
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3 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

You might be right about backup snaps, but why Clemson QBs are so well prepared all the time is probably the least important part of @cole256's post. The fact is, they are while ours are not. So that is something that Dabo does significantly better than Gus. Now, I know you think that it has been 2 consecutive OCs' faults, but not one single person connected with the program shares this opinion. Well, except Gus, probably. And I know you think that the other reason is recruiting but the fact is most of Gus's QBs have fallen far short of their potential while every one of Clemson's starters has maximized theirs. Also, Kelly Bryant was a 3*.

And Bryant didn't leave Clemson because of how he thought of life as a Clemson backup. He left Clemson because he considers himself a starter. Evidently Gus did, too, but failed to land Bryant's services.  

You can argue exactly why Dabo is better at preparing QBs than Gus is, just like he is in almost every facet of his job, but it's mighty hard to argue that he isn't. 

 

We posted the same stuff at the same time....let's me know I'm not crazy

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So Dabo could develop top ranked and five stars Deshaun Watson and Trevor Lawrence.

 

Print the shirts

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1 minute ago, aujeff11 said:

So Dabo could develop top ranked and five stars Deshaun Watson and Trevor Lawrence.

 

Print the shirts

Don't forget Boyd. Fact is you're not really going to find too many seasons with at least decent production from his qbs....

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Part of the reason FSU had such a successful run of offense for 20 years was how they handled QBs.  Chip Ferguson, Peter Tom Willis, Brad Johnson, Casey Weldon, Charlie Ward, Danny Kannel; those guys played significantly as backups in blowouts (there were plenty of them) their FR and SO years, then by their Junior seasons they were well prepared.  They were allowed to run the full offense and I think it lead to an easy transition - coupled with great QB coaching from Mark Richt.

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28 minutes ago, cole256 said:

We posted the same stuff at the same time....let's me know I'm not crazy

Good lord, no. What is crazy is trying to diminish Dabo's accomplishments while excusing Gus's failures. 

Look at how people say that Dabo wouldn't make it in the SEC. Maybe they should pay more attention to the fact that Dabo has consistently gotten better each season while Gus has done the opposite. That isn't an issue of conference strength. That is one coach learning and adapting and growing while another one doesn't. 

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1 hour ago, aujeff11 said:

So Dabo could develop top ranked and five stars Deshaun Watson and Trevor Lawrence.

 

Print the shirts

When you have student athletes like Watson, Lawrence, Bo and Cam the coach has a student that is at another level from the “Normal” recruit.  The coach has to recognize this when he gets on campus and develop a curriculum that expands his knowledge so he doesn’t get bored and reach his full potential.

One of the above mentioned student athletes was not treated that way.  Cam arrived on the Auburn campus in the winter and when the A Day game rolled around you could see he was treated like the other QBs in his development as he appeared somewhat frustrated during his A Day performance. To add to that, he didn’t excell until our coaches saw what he could do on the field during games.  I think he showed out in the MSU game IIRC and the rest was history. 

In Cam’s case, he excelled in spite his coaches, as Cam knew he was well above the other candidates on the roster.  Cam showed a lot of patients.  The same could be said for NM.  NM arrived in the summer/fall and it still took our coaching staff 4 games to know what we had and plan around NM assets.

I’m not saying Dabo developed these QBs any better than our coaching staff developed Cam and NM, just that they recognized their talents quicker and, therefore, they were developed at a quicker pace. I have often wondered if this trait of our coaching staff has hindered our getting the 5* QBs on campus?

Edited by I_M4_AU
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Just now, I_M4_AU said:

In Cam’s case, he excelled dispite his coaches

Bull honkey

 

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

I’m not saying Dabo developed these QBs any better than our coaching staff developed Cam and NM, just that they recognized their talents quicker

Sure 

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5 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Bull honkey

 

So, you don’t think Cam would have excelled quicker under Mullen at MSU?  How about Spurrier at USCe?  Come on man.

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14 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I’m not saying Dabo developed these QBs any better than our coaching staff developed Cam and NM, just that they recognized their talents quicker and, therefore, they were developed at a quicker pace. I have often wondered if this trait of our coaching staff has hindered our getting the 5* QBs on campus?

This is a really good point. I think the development conversation is often about semantics. Like, I think we all might have different definitions of that word. What does development mean? I can see where people get hung up on the idea that it means hands-on coaching from some combination of the HC, OC and QB coach. That's not how I look at it.

Maybe if we used the word "handling" it would be better received? What does "handling" mean? Could it mean position coaching- mechanics, footwork, reads, etc- along with tailoring an offense around that kid's talents, doing a better job of preparing the players around him so that they can all succeed, having an offensive scheme that has a chance at success against a given defensive scheme (and not just for the first 2 series of a game), incubating and fostering leadership qualities, providing leadership and direction away from the field, exposing the guy to people and opportunities that will enhance his success, talent evaluation... just giving guys every opportunity to succeed?

Some of these folks really need to quit crying about recruiting stars and such and recognize that Dabo's guys realize their potential and our guys don't. Dabo is handling his QBs better. Much, much better.

Edited by McLoofus

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10 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

One of the above mentioned student athletes was not treated that way.  Cam arrived on the Auburn campus in the winter and when the A Day game rolled around you could see he was treated like the other QBs in his development as he appeared somewhat frustrated during his A Day performance. To add to that, he didn’t excell until our coaches saw what he could do on the field during games.  I think he showed out in the MSU game IIRC and the rest was history. 

In Cam’s case, he excelled dispite his coaches, as Cam knew he was well above the other candidates on the roster.  Cam showed a lot of patients.

Can't speak on the others but this just makes no sense in Cams case. His biggest drawbacks were his passing. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in Florida, and while at Blinn he managed to complete 60% of his passes, everyone expected that to fall a decent bit due to the increase in competition and speed in the SEC. Instead Cams completion percentage went to 66%. There is a reason that Gus was thought of as "good" at developing QBs back then. 

If you wanted to make the argument that Gus can only help the already truly "elite" QBs or could only help the extremely athletic ones... you would have some good arguing points. But saying even the stars were hindered by Gus is a bit of an overstatement.

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13 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in Florida, and while at Blinn he managed to complete 60% of his passes, everyone expected that to fall a decent bit due to the increase in competition and speed in the SEC. Instead Cams completion percentage went to 66%. There is a reason that Gus was thought of as "good" at developing QBs back then. 

Faulty logic. The problem with the "SEC competition" argument is that he was also playing for an SEC team.

He had 3 4-year starters on his OL at Auburn. Darvin Adams wouldn't drop a pass that season if he had been thrown a molotov cocktail. Defenses had to respect not only his ability to run, but also that of Mike Dyer and Onterrio McCalebb. He had a deadly fullback and wheel route specialist in Eric Smith. TZach could take it to the house on any given play. There was a lot going on with that offense in 2010 and Gus gets a lot of credit for that but there is zero evidence that he taught Cam how to throw a football better. There is a lot more evidence that his QBs don't tend to become better passers under his tutelage beyond what you would expect to happen through more time and repetition. Nick Marshall's numbers got slightly better in 2014 because it was his 2nd year in a very similar offense and we added Duke Williams. Otherwise, his QBs have vastly underachieved as passers and Stidham even appeared to regress. 

That said, I don't really hold Gus accountable for the offense not really taking off immediately. Nobody had ever had a Cam Newton before. We were 1 year removed from Chris Todd and 2 years removed from a completely different staff. 

Edit: I forgot Mario Fannin on that 2010 team. 

Edited by McLoofus
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4 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

This is a really good point. I think the development conversation is often about semantics. Like, I think we all might have different definitions of that word. What does development mean? I can see where people get hung up on the idea that it means hands-on coaching from some combination of the HC, OC and QB coach. That's not how I look at it.

Maybe if we used the word "handling" it would be better received? What does "handling" mean? Could it mean position coaching- mechanics, footwork, reads, etc- along with tailoring an offense around that kid's talents, doing a better job of preparing the players around him so that they can all succeed, having an offensive scheme that has a chance at success against a given defensive scheme (and not just for the first 2 series of a game), incubating and fostering leadership qualities, providing leadership and direction away from the field, exposing the guy to people and opportunities that will enhance his success, talent evaluation... just giving guys every opportunity to succeed.

Some of these folks really need to quit crying about recruiting stars and such and recognize that Dabo's guys realize their potential and our guys don't. Dabo is developing his QBs better. 

Development equals growth in my book.  I think its was coach Dye that said you either get better or regress, you never stay the same.  Works for teams as well as individuals.

Regarding handling; the coaches have to recognize what fundamentals need work and concentrate on those, but that should be done during the evaluation process and the coaches shouldn’t have to spend too much time on those.  The elite guys, whether 5*s or 3*s, have the “IT” factor and developing a head for the scheme run is paramount.  The rest is developing critical thinking skills he may not have been exposed to in his previous experience. NM had this in spades, I’m not sure it was developed. 

As to the rest of the paragraph; that starts with the vision of the leader of the organization.  Dabo has done an excellent job in this area, or at least that’s what we get from the media.  It’s nice when everyone is moving in the same direction.

No arguement on your last statement.

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44 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

So, you don’t think Cam would have excelled quicker under Mullen at MSU?  How about Spurrier at USCe?  Come on man.

Ok. Well Spurrier wanted Cam at TE.

 

And that’s beside tbe point. Cam didnt happen despite the coaches. Our coaches saw what we had and tailor made the offense around him. 

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1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

Development equals growth in my book.  I think its was coach Dye that said you either get better or regress, you never stay the same.  Works for teams as well as individuals.

Regarding handling; the coaches have to recognize what fundamentals need work and concentrate on those, but that should be done during the evaluation process and the coaches shouldn’t have to spend too much time on those.  The elite guys, whether 5*s or 3*s, have the “IT” factor and developing a head for the scheme run is paramount.  The rest is developing critical thinking skills he may not have been exposed to in his previous experience. NM had this in spades, I’m not sure it was developed. 

As to the rest of the paragraph; that starts with the vision of the leader of the organization.  Dabo has done an excellent job in this area, or at least that’s what we get from the media.  It’s nice when everyone is moving in the same direction.

No arguement on your last statement.

Exactly. To all of it.

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44 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

If you wanted to make the argument that Gus can only help the already truly "elite" QBs or could only help the extremely athletic ones... you would have some good arguing points. But saying even the stars were hindered by Gus is a bit of an overstatement.

This is not my argument.  I’m saying Gus doesn’t recognize what he has in talent as early as other coaches would have and is a detriment at the start of the season.   It also a detriment to the development of the student athletes that are elite.

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28 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Faulty logic. The problem with the "SEC competition" argument is that he was also playing for an SEC team.

That's not how that works.

QBs tend to get lower comp % when going to the NFL (In most cases). The reason cited is the increased talent and speed of the NFL compared to the NCAA. It doesn't matter that the QB now has NFL talent at receiver also. The game is still faster, the holes generally smaller, and the repercussions of a mistake are bigger.

 

The same is said in moving from a JUCO to a high talent conference in NCAA, or from a high school to college.

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2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

This is not my argument.  I’m saying Gus doesn’t recognize what he has in talent as early as other coaches would have and is a detriment at the start of the season.   It also a detriment to the development of the student athletes that are elite.

he had near 200 yards passing and rushing his very first game for AU and 5 TDs.

I'd say his talent was recognized from the start.

 

Though to your earlier point, I think Gus has this weird thing where he thinks it helps QBs to not name a starter or publicly announce anything prominent about a QB before the season starts. And that can be a detriment to some players psyche, especially if they feel and know they are head and shoulders above the competition.

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43 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

There was a lot going on with that offense in 2010 and Gus gets a lot of credit for that but there is zero evidence that he taught Cam how to throw a football better.

Cam literally got better and better passing the ball throughout the season. 

Edited by aujeff11

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18 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Ok. Well Spurrier wanted Cam at TE.

 

And that’s beside tbe point. Cam didnt happen despite the coaches. Our coaches saw what we had and tailor made the offense around him. 

Gus, by his own admission, has a down hill, power run offense.  How was this a tailor made offense around Cam?  Cam was built for that offense.  My OP should have stated “in spite” not “despite”. Makes a little difference.

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12 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

he had near 200 yards passing and rushing his very first game for AU and 5 TDs.

I'd say his talent was recognized from the start.

 

Though to your earlier point, I think Gus has this weird thing where he thinks it helps QBs to not name a starter or publicly announce anything prominent about a QB before the season starts. And that can be a detriment to some players psyche, especially if they feel and know they are head and shoulders above the competition.

That first game was against Arky State.  The next few games were very vanilla.  I do remember Gus not naming the starting QB until late that year and, as fans, we didn’t know what was going on.  I would bet in the locker room everybody knew what was going on.

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18 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

That's not how that works.

QBs tend to get lower comp % when going to the NFL (In most cases). The reason cited is the increased talent and speed of the NFL compared to the NCAA. It doesn't matter that the QB now has NFL talent at receiver also. The game is still faster, the holes generally smaller, and the repercussions of a mistake are bigger.

The same is said in moving from a JUCO to a high talent conference in NCAA, or from a high school to college.

"Tend to" and "in most cases" are massive qualifiers when you're talking about the most physically gifted QB in history. Also, you're insane if you're telling me that having different talent around you can't explain different production just as much as the change in coaching.

Gus Malzahn did not teach Cam Newton how to throw a football in one offseason. 

By the way, Cam completed the same percentage of passes as an NFL rookie as he did at Blinn. 

 

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2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Gus, by his own admission, has a down hill, power run offense.  How was this a tailor made offense around Cam?

We worked and schemed around his strengths. We ran an offense that we knew Cam could excel in: the ZR, the dash read (inverted veer,) etc. Mike Shula actually talked to Auburn when he was at Carolina about developing more run option plays that Gus ran successfully well.

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19 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

he had near 200 yards passing and rushing his very first game for AU and 5 TDs.

I'd say his talent was recognized from the start.

 

Though to your earlier point, I think Gus has this weird thing where he thinks it helps QBs to not name a starter or publicly announce anything prominent about a QB before the season starts. And that can be a detriment to some players psyche, especially if they feel and know they are head and shoulders above the competition.

It wasn't until the South Carolina game where we started to use Cam in the way he should've been used from the start. Of course by now we know that is Gus' style/problem. Doesn't know what he has even if he has a #1 NFL pick sitting in his QB room....best player of a generation and he didn't know what how to use him until a month in. Gus is slower than most coaches, and slower than all good coaches.

 

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1 minute ago, aujeff11 said:

We worked and schemed around his strengths. We ran an offense that we knew Cam could excel in: the ZR, the dash read (inverted veer,) etc. Mike Shula actually talked to Auburn when he was at Carolina about developing more run option plays that Gus ran successfully well.

Carolina is still running some of what Auburn does offensively. Cam is a talent.

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